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Advice please on stove


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1 hour ago, Lisa009 said:

Hi everyone we have decided to go for a chilli penguin stove as overall this stove is not right for us anyway and am ordering it soon when I get paid.  Just wondering as want to make sure this is right this time in looking at the diagram online for stove fitting frI cant see a roof support between the ceiling and roof like the pic attached do people fit these types of supports in boars  and are they necessary?  Thanks

Do you mean the top of the stove and the ceiling? The ceiling and roof are only a couple of inches apart at most. If the former, then it depends. All the single wall pipe flues I've seen have no intermediate support. They don't need it. Double wall insulated flues might need one. Depends how many joints are in it and how flexible the whole arrangement might be. Don't know as I've never played with them. The distance between stove top and roof is only four or five feet at most.

Jen

Edited by Jen-in-Wellies
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Diagram drawn by someone with little or no knowledge of typical boat practice.

 

Hole through ceiling to be oversize with any combustible insulation between ceiling and roof removed. Some form of non-combustible trim to cover the oversized hole.

 

In most cases a cast iron roof collar is bolted to the roof and the flue pipe finishes flush with the top so there is no joint in the pipe in the "roof" void.

 

If you intend to use an insulated flue then the roof fitting may be different and I dare say more  expensive.

 

Typical roof collar:-

DSC01255_1.JPG

 

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11 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Diagram drawn by someone with little or no knowledge of typical boat practice.

 

Hole through ceiling to be oversize with any combustible insulation between ceiling and roof removed. Some form of non-combustible trim to cover the oversized hole.

 

In most cases a cast iron roof collar is bolted to the roof and the flue pipe finishes flush with the top so there is no joint in the pipe in the "roof" void.

 

If you intend to use an insulated flue then the roof fitting may be different and I dare say more  expensive.

 

Typical roof collar:-

DSC01255_1.JPG

 

Hi thanks am using a twin wall the only part I can see for between the roof and ceiling  is pic attached there is rubber flashing on the roof but there will be no join between the roof and ceiling of the flue so will be one flue section going through 

.

s-l400.jpg

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I don't like the idea of joints in the flue inside the boat. Ideally it should be a one piece flue from stove to deck collar. That might be difficult to do in the insulated twin wall flue that you're using because it might not be available in more than 1.2m lengths. I see you're using the correct clamps and supports, but if you're out cruising the boat might hit a lack wall, etc, and you might be completely unaware that it's cracked the flue joint. Personally I'd rather have a one piece single-wall flue. I guess you've got kids onboard hence the stove surround and twin wall flue, but someone would have to deliberately reach out to touch your flue pipe and in my experience kids only need to touch a hot flue once to quickly learn not to do it again. Rather limited experience I grant you as I don't have kids myself, but I once warned one friend's boy not  to touch the stove so of course he touched it and started crying. He didn't do it again though! Anyway, I could be wrong but always thought joints halfway up a flue pipe were ok on the outside of a building, but not on the inside - and even if it's ok in static buildings it may not be in boats? I think you need to balance the risk of a child burning their hand once by touching a single wall flue pipe, against the risk of killing everyone on board with CO poisoning because a flue joint between two sections of insulated flue has cracked.

Edited by blackrose
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15 minutes ago, Lisa009 said:

Hi thanks am using a twin wall the only part I can see for between the roof and ceiling  is pic attached there is rubber flashing on the roof but there will be no join between the roof and ceiling of the flue so will be one flue section going through 

Hopefully you do realise that the reason for having a proper boat 'roof collar' to terminate the flue is so that you can remove the chimney to go under low bridges.

 

The 'rubber' flashing is a domestic (house) product so that the flue can continue all the way up, thru' the house roof and extend up to the height of the apex.

 

If your twin wall is going to be installed, pass thru the rubber flashing, and act as the chimney, what length are you going have as a 'chimney' ?

 

If you have it above (say) 12" then there is a good chance that it will hit low bridges and either bend, be destroyed or even knock the stove off its mountings.

 

A number of us will have 'lost' our chimneys overboard due to low tree branches knocking it off - your 'one-piece' system will not last very long.

 

Things on boats have developed over many years, some people try and use domestic equipment, some of it works, some of it doesn't in the end many go back to what should be used, no need to reinvent the wheel.

 

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I think the last two posts have suggested why you are having problems. In this instance I would not try to reinvent the wheel as far as the chimney roof collar is concerned.

 

In my view nothing should secure the flue to the ceiling but as long as you can get the fixings into the roof and water tight plus sufficient access to tighten the clamp screws I think it would support the top of the flue for a while at ;least. it looks a bit flimsy to me. Be aware that you will be fitting yet another clamped around the flue so may experience more expansion and contraction noise, I very much doubt that bracket would come off unscathed in your first chimney to bridge/branch contact because that domestic roof gland will give little support so all the force will be transferred to the flue and that bracket.

 

If you went for twin wall flue because of children rather than because that is what the domstic stove installer decided to use then you could change it for single wall flue and fit a baffle around it made forom metal such as in this link. Perforated sheet

 

Edited by Tony Brooks
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34 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think the last two posts have suggested why you are having problems. In this instance I would not try to reinvent the wheel as far as the chimney roof collar is concerned.

 

In my view nothing should secure the flue to the ceiling but as long as you can get the fixings into the roof and water tight plus sufficient access to tighten the clamp screws I think it would support the top of the flue for a while at ;least. it looks a bit flimsy to me. Be aware that you will be fitting yet another clamped around the flue so may experience more expansion and contraction noise, I very much doubt that bracket would come off unscathed in your first chimney to bridge/branch contact because that domestic roof gland will give little support so all the force will be transferred to the flue and that bracket.

 

If you went for twin wall flue because of children rather than because that is what the domstic stove installer decided to use then you could change it for single wall flue and fit a baffle around it made forom metal such as in this link. Perforated sheet

 

Hi we basically was sold this system when we knew little and have only realised now the issues so just want to get it right now.

To be clear we have 3 sections of flue 1 x 1000mm and 2 x 500 mm the 1000 mm is in the cabin,  half of the 500 mm is between the cabin and outside with no join and the other 500 mm can be removed when cruising as is  scre on attached to the section sticking out through the flashing.  The main issue it seems is between the ceiling and roof having no support there so if we get that additional support for that area such as the picture I sent then this should stabilise the flue with the other supports internally am I correct if not will call someone in as dont really want to change the flue system my husband falls a lot and dont want him to burn himself he has a disability that means he is very unsteady.

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44 minutes ago, Lisa009 said:

Hi we basically was sold this system when we knew little and have only realised now the issues so just want to get it right now.

To be clear we have 3 sections of flue 1 x 1000mm and 2 x 500 mm the 1000 mm is in the cabin,  half of the 500 mm is between the cabin and outside with no join and the other 500 mm can be removed when cruising as is  scre on attached to the section sticking out through the flashing.  The main issue it seems is between the ceiling and roof having no support there so if we get that additional support for that area such as the picture I sent then this should stabilise the flue with the other supports internally am I correct if not will call someone in as dont really want to change the flue system my husband falls a lot and dont want him to burn himself he has a disability that means he is very unsteady.

 

I am fairly sure that bracket is designed to be screwed to wooden rafters etc, not a curved metal roof that sits at a slight angle to the flue. That does not mean you can't use it but it does mean that it will either need twisting or the clamp bit will only touch the flue top on one side and bottom on the other, I don't think this will stop it supporting the flue but may well dent it but then flue damage is likely at the first impact with a bridge or branch and at that point you may well need a new bracket. It looks as if the clamp bit may twist on some screws or rivets.

 

The bracket seems to be designed to be secured by to or four fixings and on a boat this means drilling through the roof and either tapping the holes to give a thread to screw up from underneath or using nuts and set screws. In the latter case I think you would need to countersink the roof so the screw head sits flush with the roof surface. The holes would need painting to minimise rusting. I rather suspect that the metal plate the rubber boot is fitted to may be both screwed to the roof and stuck/sealed down with sealer. if it is then you may destroy it trying to get it off. Ideally (if you insist on using those parts) the fixings for the bracket should not prevent the roof plate sitting flush to the roof. I would not drill right through the roof plate, although that would be easier, because the holes may leak. Your boat, your choice.

 

PS to allow the clamp part of that bracket to twist as it probably needs to its two arms need to point front & back, not sideways.

Edited by Tony Brooks
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  • 3 months later...
3 minutes ago, mjohns92 said:

Quick advise: next time use online converters like https://amazingconverter.com/metric-conversion/metric-conversion-from-inches and tell us numers in centimeters instead of inches.  According to my link, 4 inches = 10,16cm and 5inches = 12,7cm. It is more precise as you can see, so it is easier to figure out the problem!c

Thanks but this is resolved and I will write as I see fit thankyou 🙄

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11 minutes ago, Lisa009 said:

Thanks but this is resolved and I will write as I see fit thankyou 🙄

 

Lisa, please do not let the idiot put you off the forum. I have no idea what he thinks he is contributing but in none of his posts has metric-imperial conversion been needed to 0.1cm. In any case in the UK engineering we tend to work to mm so he  is confusing things.

 

Anyway, how did you get on with the flue, is it now sorted?

  • Greenie 1
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1 hour ago, mjohns92 said:

Quick advise: next time use online converters like https://amazingconverter.com/metric-conversion/metric-conversion-from-inches and tell us numers in centimeters instead of inches.  According to my link, 4 inches = 10,16cm and 5inches = 12,7cm. It is more precise as you can see, so it is easier to figure out the problem!c

Probably a bit over precise. If something was about 4 ", would really measure it to 1/10mm accuracy?

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2 hours ago, David Mack said:

I think most of us here can cope with measurements in metric or imperial units, whatever our personal preferences.

Or indeed mixed units - 8ft by 4ft plywood 12mm thick etc.

Indeed. Reminds me of the day many years ago when I bought some leathercloth. Conversation was something like

 

me: " I'm after about 6 square feet of black leathercloth"

 

Sales guy : "We're metric now. It comes in metres"

 

me: "How wide is it, then?"

 

sales guy : " sixty eight inches"

 

 

Actually worked out quite well. Because they were selling by the metre rather than the yard, they ended up with about 2 and a half feet (about 75cm for the imperially challenged) left on the end of the roll, which I got for well under half price.

 

 

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Reminds me of that chap that went into an Army and Navy store in Dublin.  Have you a camoflage jacket please,--- We got tousands of em sor but we cannot foind em.

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As flue pipes usually rust and corrode away from the top downwards they last much much longer if it's sticking up above the collar by a few inches if possible.

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