Diesel outboards

[Travelman]

Morning all, so I've learned from this forum, and other sources that one of the issues with having a petrol outboard is the lack of fuel availability on the network. After wondering why people don't swap them out for diesel outboards, and doing some research, it seems that they are few and far between. Yanmar makes a 50hp diesel outboard, although I would imagine this is more geared to the offshore boat market. Anyone have any experience with this, or know why this is not a common thing?

[BEngo]

Diesel outboards are heavier, noisier and considerably more expensive to make and  buy than petrol ones.   It is also technically difficult to make low speed, low powered ones.

 Several companies have tried, the market has not yet been impressed.

 

I rely on petrol for starting the main engine.  It is fairly easily come by around the system, but you will have to carry it a short way, there is almost none water side.   A small folding trolley that suits your tanks is helpful.  Some parts are petrol deserts, but with a spare tank and some research you can usually plan for these.

Na

[Alan de Enfield]

21 minutes ago, Travelman said:

Anyone have any experience with this, or know why this is not a common thing?

Not unknown in the commercial markets.

 

Very heavy for a small boat.

Expensive

Noisy

 

27hp here :

Yanmar Diesel D 27 Outboard, Inverinate - Ad 113055 (findafishingboat.com)

 

 

 

 

If looking to buy a new outboard be aware of the different leg-lengths and which size you need for YOUR boat.

 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Travelman]

11 minutes ago, BEngo said:

Diesel outboards are heavier, noisier and considerably more expensive to make and  buy than petrol ones.   It is also technically difficult to make low speed, low powered ones.

 Several companies have tried, the market has not yet been impressed.

 

I rely on petrol for starting the main engine.  It is fairly easily come by around the system, but you will have to carry it a short way, there is almost none water side.   A small folding trolley that suits your tanks is helpful.  Some parts are petrol deserts, but with a spare tank and some research you can usually plan for these.

Na

Yes, I don't mind getting it from petrol stations, I'm assuming it would more expensive then "red" diesel.

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Very heavy for a small boat.

Expensive

Noisy

 

27hp here :

Yanmar Diesel D 27 Outboard, Inverinate - Ad 113055 (findafishingboat.com)

 

 

That's massive. Shame they can't get it down to a 9.9hp petrol engine. Incidently, why 9.9 and not 10? Something to do with taxes maybe:)

Edited December 21, 2020 by Travelman

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Travelman said:

Yes, I don't mind getting it from petrol stations, I'm assuming it would more expensive then "red" diesel.

But in the near future you will not be able to buy red-diesel anyway.

Petrol will be cheaper than white diesel sold by canal-side vendors, so if you can fetch and carry it then stick with it.

Presumably you are aware of the increased requirements of the BSS with a petrol engined boat, and, the law regarding carrying/storing no more than 30 litres on your boat ?

 

The main problem with outboards is that the elctrical output is generally insufficient to charge a 'domestic' battery bank.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[blackrose]

18 minutes ago, Travelman said:

Morning all, so I've learned from this forum, and other sources that one of the issues with having a petrol outboard is the lack of fuel availability on the network. 

 

Yes, that's just one of the issues, but the main thing you need to think about is the safety of storing and using petrol on a boat. If you weren't aware, petrol vapour is heavier than air and will behave much like LPG, potentially sinking into the cabin or bilges where it may encounter an ignition source. Take great care when refueling your petrol outboard. Although most of the vapour spills should just go overboard you never can tell - make sure there are no ignition sources in the vicinity and use the biggest funnel you can, or better still use the fuel mode for a connected tank. Store petrol in a gas tight locker which drains overboard and not into the boat.

[Travelman]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

But in the near future you will not be able to buy red-diesel anyway.

Petrol will be cheaper than white diesel sold by canal-side vendors, so if you can fetch and carry it then stick with it.

Presumably you are aware of the increased requirements of the BSS with a petrol engined boat, and, the law regarding carrying/storing no more than 30 litres on your boat ?

I'm sure the farmers will squawk about that one! I have learned about those BSS requirements from reading threads on this forum. I saw a nice little Freeman 23 for sale just down the road from me. Unfortunatley it had an inboard Watermota petrol engine. Probably not the best boat for a starter boat.

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, Travelman said:

That's massive. Shame they can't get it down to a 9.9hp petrol engine. Incidently, why 9.9 and not 10? Something to do with taxes maybe:)

Look at the (physical) size & weight of most narrowboat inboard diesel engines.

 

My lister LPWS4 (27hp) 'dry-weight' is 400lbs

1 minute ago, Travelman said:

I'm sure the farmers will squawk about that one!

We are talking about boats - BOATS will not be allowed to use "Red"

[TheBiscuits]

9 minutes ago, Travelman said:

Incidently, why 9.9 and not 10?

 

Some countries, including the USA, have different regulations for engines under 10 horsepower.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, TheBiscuits said:

 

Some countries, including the USA, have different regulations for engines under 10 horsepower.

In some countries you CANNOT use certain waters if your engine is under 10Hp.

This is too avoid underpowered boats getting themmselves into danger.

 

We are very fortunate in this country that we have virtually no legislation regarding boating, and boaters qualifications.

[Travelman]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Look at the (physical) size & weight of most narrowboat inboard diesel engines.

 

My lister LPWS4 (27hp) 'dry-weight' is 400lbs

We are talking about boats - BOATS will not be allowed to use "Red"

So the farmers get a break then. I remember when diesel was cheaper than petrol for cars. Can't remember why that changed.

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

In some countries you CANNOT use certain waters if your engine is under 10Hp.

This is too avoid underpowered boats getting themmselves into danger.

 

We are very fortunate in this country that we have virtually no legislation regarding boating, and boaters qualifications.

Yes, it seems to be one of the last areas of freedom, which is one of the reasons it appeals to me.

[Travelman]

8 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

 

Some countries, including the USA, have different regulations for engines under 10 horsepower.

When I lived there, they had someting called a "Jon Boat" Basically an open fishing boat that you trailer to your destination. If the engine was under 10hp, no need to register your boat.

[TheBiscuits]

Just now, Travelman said:

When I lived there, they had someting called a "Jon Boat" Basically an open fishing boat that you trailer to your destination. If the engine was under 10hp, no need to register your boat.

 

If you already knew why 9.9 hp and not 10, why did you ask ?

 

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Travelman said:

So the farmers get a break then. I remember when diesel was cheaper than petrol for cars. Can't remember why that changed.

There are a list of exemptions in the consultation document eg :

 

Agriculture

4.3 The government recognises the continued importance of red diesel to the agricultural sector, so announced at Budget 2020 its intention not to change farmers’ entitlement to use red diesel.

4.4 Given the entitlements to use red diesel in forestry, horticulture and pisciculture (i.e. fish farming) are closely connected to the entitlement to use red diesel in agriculture, the government announced that it intends to treat these three sectors in the same way.

 

You will find that it is important to keep track of legislation that could affect your life, of note (and one that you should consider) is :

 

The Marine Zero Emissions Plan (including inland waterways)

 

By 2025 all new boats sold must be capabale of being modified to zero-emission propulson systems

By 2035 no new boat may be sold that is not zero-emission compliant

By 2050 NO boats will be allowed to be used in UK waters unless they have a zero-emission proulsion system

Edited December 21, 2020 by Alan de Enfield

[Mad Harold]

10 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

Yes, that's just one of the issues, but the main thing you need to think about is the safety of storing and using petrol on a boat. If you weren't aware, petrol vapour is heavier than air and will behave much like LPG, potentially sinking into the cabin or bilges where it may encounter an ignition source. Take great care when refueling your petrol outboard. Although most of the vapour spills should just go overboard you never can tell - make sure there are no ignition sources in the vicinity and use the biggest funnel you can, or better still use the fuel mode for a connected tank. Store petrol in a gas tight locker which drains overboard and not into the boat.

Or use a Jerrycan rack fixed on the transom for your spare fuel.They are sold for Landrover type vehicles.

I refuel from the Jerrycan to the fuel tank with a bulb syphon pump, although the boat tank is embossed with "remove tank from boat to refuel".

This is of course the safest way to refuel.

[Travelman]

Just now, TheBiscuits said:

 

If you already knew why 9.9 hp and not 10, why did you ask ?

 

Different countries, different policies:)

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Mad Harold said:

Or use a Jerrycan rack fixed on the transom for your spare fuel.They are sold for Landrover type vehicles.

I refuel from the Jerrycan to the fuel tank with a bulb syphon pump, although the boat tank is embossed with "remove tank from boat to refuel".

This is of course the safest way to refuel.

And just hope that someone doesn't 'ram you up the backend'

[Travelman]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

There are a list of exemptions in the consultation document eg :

 

Agriculture

4.3 The government recognises the continued importance of red diesel to the agricultural sector, so announced at Budget 2020 its intention not to change farmers’ entitlement to use red diesel.

4.4 Given the entitlements to use red diesel in forestry, horticulture and pisciculture (i.e. fish farming) are closely connected to the entitlement to use red diesel in agriculture, the government announced that it intends to treat these three sectors in the same way.

 

You will find that it is important to keep track of legislation that could affect your life, of note (and one that you should consider) is :

 

The Marine Zero Emissions Plan (including inland waterways)

 

By 2025 all new boats sold must be capabale of being modifies to zero-emission propulson systems

By 2035 no new boat may be sold that is not zero-emission compliant

By 2050 NO boats will be allowed to be used in UK waters unless they have a zero-emission proulsion system

So electric propulsion will be powerfull enough to power huge ocean going vessels in UK coastal waters? I wish the government the very best of luck with this:)

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Travelman said:

So electric propulsion will be powerfull enough to power huge ocean going vessels in UK coastal waters? I wish the government the very best of luck with this:)

No - read the Governements documenst before jumping to conclusions.

 

Zero-emission does not automatically mean "Electric"

 

For Example Rolls Royce are currently working on 'mini' nuclear powered boat engines.

Others are working on Hydrogen and Amonnia.

 

The Government is looking at the possible distribution of Hydrogen via the gas-mains, having an Ammonia plant in Oxforshire and many other options

 

This is why it is advisable to read up on the subject to be suitably informed as to what the future holds for you and your boating plans.

 

Some examples :

 

 

[Travelman]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No - read the Governements documenst before jumping to conclusions.

 

Zero-emission does not automatically mean "Electric"

 

For Example Rolls Royce are currently working on 'mini' nuclear powered boat engines.

Others are working on Hydrogen and Amonnia.

 

The Government is looking at the possible distribution of Hydrogen via the gas-mains, having an Ammonia plant in Oxforshire and many other options

 

This is why it is advisable to read up on the subject to be suitably informed as to what the future holds for you and your boating plans.

 

Some examples :

 

 

I assumed electric because that is all I hear about, as the government seems to favour electric cars over hydrogen. I understand there are some technical difficulties with storage on hydrogen cars. I would like to a choice between electric and hydrogen, as we have a choice between petrol and diesel.

[Travelman]

Mini nuclear powered boat engines? That would be interesting.

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, Travelman said:

I assumed electric because that is all I hear about, as the government seems to favour electric cars over hydrogen. I understand there are some technical difficulties with storage on hydrogen cars. I would like to a choice between electric and hydrogen, as we have a choice between petrol and diesel.

[Travelman]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

Mind you that's an option too

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Travelman said:

Mini nuclear powered boat engines? That would be interesting.

 

The nuclear option - Splash247

 

Now, excitement is building at the centre of our industry around the development of ‘atomic batteries’ for marine propulsion. These would be mass-manufactured power units based on marine Molten Salt Reactors (m-MSRs), a radical departure from nuclear as we know it. m-MSRs promise delivery of ample, reliable energy for fully electric large ships (suezmax to VLCCs, cape to VLOCs and panamax to Triple-Es etc) that would not need refuelling for up to 30 years. Zero emissions would come as standard.
Safety is in every respect the primary aspect of any atomic machine, it is also the basis on which public opinion is formed. Losing coolant in a reactor is potentially disastrous and is a challenge that is largely responsible for the poor public image of ‘old nuclear’. In the m-MSR atomic battery, the fuel is the coolant and the coolant is the fuel, so coolant cannot be lost. What happened at Chernobyl or Fukushima is unthinkable with an m-MSR.

Since there would be no refuelling, there would be no handling of spent fuels and therefore no practical proliferation issue of atomic material to deal with. That level of passive, walk-away safety is unprecedented, even in gas and diesel technology. The m-MSR ‘atomic battery’ promises enormous liquid energy under no pressure to run a 35MW VLCC for 20 years at close to 30% less than the cost of VLSFO, and as much as 70% cheaper than green ammonia, with no emissions and no refuelling stops.

[BWM]

There are a few diesel outboards on the canal, my neighbour had one powering a converted ex BW workboat. Even though the horsepower was fairly high (50 i think), the boat was far from over powered. 

 One big issue you would have outside of practicality is security, they attract thieves like a magnet, my neighbour fitted a substantial steel cage around his due to this.