Fuel ......... we need to know the FACTS.

[Supermalc]

With the seemingly legal use of limited quantity of veg oil for road (and now of course boat) use, I think it would help if the facts were known of just what constitutes 'diesel' for use without damaging engines.

 

We know 28 sec heating oil with 'half a cup' of engine oil makes diesel.

 

We know veg oil at 40deg C will have the viscosity of diesel.

 

We know diesel engines will cope with at least 50% veg oil in warm weather and 30% in cold weather (sometimes much more)

 

And people are saying mixing paraffin/kerosene/28 sec heating oil with veg oil (not legal for road or now boat use) will also thin the consistency of veg oil to make 'diesel'

 

But what we (this is not the 'royal' we, but just about everyone I've talked to it about) don't know is what are the actual figures. (one for the mathameticians)

 

We need the figures in percentage, ml per litre, or litres per 5/20/25 litres (the common sizes of cans)

 

I'm sure this info would be helpful to more than just myself.

[Callunna]

We know 28 sec heating oil with 'half a cup' of engine oil makes diesel.

 

I don't even know what '28 sec' is, but I would welcome a thorough examination of the potential for using green alternatives to diesel. I wouldn't even mind if it wasn't any cheaper.

 

I like the thought of recycling cooking oil but obviously wouldn't appreciate any damage caused to my boat's engine.

[Supermalc]

Search the net and there are masses and masses of information from many sources. But there is no clear and precise information, such as Chris gave us in the torque thread. Seems everyone knows, but no one is saying, or making public as it is illegal to use anything other than taxed (white) diesel to mix with veg oil, unless you pay the extra duty of course.

 

if v = veg oil

k = 28 sec oil

d = diesel

e = engine oil (SAE 30)

 

5v + ?k = d ............. Numbers are litres .......... d is constant viscosity of diesel.

 

5k + ?e = d

Edited October 5, 2007 by Supermalc

[magnetman]

Fuel oil specification: sg 0.84 to 0.88. Flash point over 150'F. Viscosity redwood no.1:35/45sec at 100'F(MAX 50sec). Gross calorific value:above 19,000 B.th.u's/lb. Cold test:remains liquid below 20'F. Sulphur below 1%. Water ash and hard asphalt should be negligible. Thats what my engine needs apparently.

[Breals]

Not particularly helpful to this topic, but interesting if you haven't seen it before. Top Gear - Veg Oil

[moggyjo]

Not particularly helpful to this topic, but interesting if you haven't seen it before. Top Gear - Veg Oil

A friend of ours has been useing veg oil that he gets from a friendly pub kitchen, near his moorings, he strains all the bits of chips etc out and then mixes it with 25% diesel during colder weather to thin the oil down and it works a treat.

[honey ryder]

ive read a lot about using vegetable oil instead of diesel in various % mixes.

 

since I used to have ( until recently) a toyota hilux diesel, I was part of a forum that discussed the matter in detail quite a lot of the time.

 

some people on that forum registered with the govt as a fuel producer. this means you self declare the fuel you "make" ie by mixing and in some cases distilling certain quantities of various chemicals to make a much more eco fuel from reclaimed veg oil.

the govt are very unclear on the matter and make it quite hard for Mr or Mrs jo public to get away from the fuel forecourts.

 

however it recently changed the rate of duty for home made fuels, and it may be worth me digging out the info from the other forum.

some vehicles had a double tank system where they had regular diesel in one tank to start and stop the engine on, and then a tank of veg oil, neat but with an inline heater. it was a simple case of start the engine using diesel, get the engine warm ( which would possibly be the way the oil tank gets heated) then switch over to the oil. its got slightly less calorific value so theres a slight power drop.. then before you switch off the engine, switch back over to the regular diesel to cleanse the engine and have it primed ready for restarting if it is to be restarted when its cold again.

 

I was prepared to put this system in my car and I think I would also be prepared to put this system on my boat. I dont really care what the government stand is on that system, boats are so far away from the regular road policing, the chances of your tank or tanks being checked are slim to say the least.

 

filtering the used oil is a simple job of stretching a few layers of finely woven cotton over a drum or receptacle. let the oil drain through it a few times and the jobs pretty much done.

[David Schweizer]

In recently had the "pleasure" of following a small van running on vegetable oil for about fifteen miles before I was able to get past it. I don't know whether it was running on clean oil or re-claimed oil, but it smelt like a chip van. I was beginning to feel quite sick after nearly half an hour, and I have quite sophisticated fresh air filters on my car.

 

If that is what running vehicles on Vegetable oil would do to the envirionment, then it should be banned immnediately until someone comes up with a filter to remove the odour from the exhaust gas.

[Breals]

I'm sure 'the environment' is less bothered by smells than you'd think, toxins particulates and C02 being more the pressing concerns.... although if it was as bad as you say I don't think I'd like to be following that van either.

[carlt]

I'm sure 'the environment' is less bothered by smells than you'd think, toxins particulates and C02 being more the pressing concerns....

The environment may be bothered by deforestation, forced relocation and sacrificing essential food crop acreage, though. This may be why the main environmental lobby groups are moving away from bio-fuels as a 'green' alternative.

 

Of course, if your motives for using bio-fuels are economic, the environmental question is irrelevant.

[Callunna]

it smelt like a chip van

 

Similar thing happened to me recently, except that I thought to myself how much more pleasant a smell it was than breathing in diesel fumes.

 

Each to their own, I suppose.

[magnetman]

I'd be mega hungry by the time i got out of Braunston tunnel.

[David Schweizer]

Similar thing happened to me recently, except that I thought to myself how much more pleasant a smell it was than breathing in diesel fumes.

 

Each to their own, I suppose.

I can assure you that over a prolonged period the smell of fried food becomes vile. I had the misfortune of being moored right outside the Kitchen air extractor on the side of a pub a few years ago during the Foot and Mout epidemic. It belched out fried food smells most of the day, and I could not move the boat as it was the only space left available hen the bank collapsed on my officiial mooring. It took almost three months to air the smell out of the boat.

Edited October 5, 2007 by David Schweizer

[tidal]

The comments about chip shops are most interesting.

I can only presume that the vehicles in question had their combustion set up inefficiently.

 

Sadly, regardless of what urban legend may say,with an engine at normal running temperature, if the combustion set ups are right, it is virtually impossible to tell whether a vehicle is running on petrol, diesel, cooking oil, heating oil, or lpg simply by olfactory input

 

Note carefully the "if" in the above sentence

[starman]

Take a look at Tony Brooks very thorough article on bio-fuels in the latest (November) issue of Canal Boat magazine

[Supermalc]

All very interesting - yet no one has yet replied to my question.....

 

As this is now legal, I am now filling up with £10 (which equals litres) of diesel, and 9 litres of cooking oil. Someone I know is running his high milage 205 on 80% cooking oil.

 

However the question I would like answered is how much heating oil will need to be added to make veg oil the same consistancy as diesel. Too think and it will not go through the injection pump/injectors when it's cold, and too thin, and it will damage the pump and injectors.

 

It's a simple question .......... does anyone who posts know, or have I to seek further afield?

Take a look at Tony Brooks very thorough article on bio-fuels in the latest (November) issue of Canal Boat magazine

 

I don't have Canal Boat magazine, is the revelant information included, and if so could you post it on here please.

Edited October 5, 2007 by Supermalc

[GUMPY]

As this is now legal, I am now filling up with £10 (which equals litres) of diesel, and 9 litres of cooking oil. Someone I know is running his high milage 205 on 80% cooking oil.

 

For cars the law stands as follows:

 

SVO ( straight veg oil ) is taxed at the same rate as normal DERV, if you are using it in your car without paying the duty you are breaking the law.

 

Bio diesel If you make it yourself then you can use up to 2500L a year and pay no duty, above that and if bought commercially its about 30pL duty.

 

SVO is not the same as BioDiesel.

 

HMRC are certainly cracking down on SVO / Red use in cars and have testing vehicles out often in my local area.

 

Julian

[Hairy-Neil]

I don't know whether it was running on clean oil or re-claimed oil, but it smelt like a chip van. I was beginning to feel quite sick after nearly half an hour,.....

 

We get them in for MOT, imagine what its like running them inside the workshop for the emissions test

 

 

The comments about chip shops are most interesting.

I can only presume that the vehicles in question had their combustion set up inefficiently.

 

Sadly, regardless of what urban legend may say,with an engine at normal running temperature, if the combustion set ups are right, it is virtually impossible to tell whether a vehicle is running on petrol, diesel, cooking oil, heating oil, or lpg simply by olfactory input

 

Note carefully the "if" in the above sentence

 

Pray tell me how you fine tune a modern diesel engine, many of which have computer control engine management and self regenerating catylitic converters.

[aread2]

For cars the law stands as follows:

 

SVO ( straight veg oil ) is taxed at the same rate as normal DERV, if you are using it in your car without paying the duty you are breaking the law.

 

Bio diesel If you make it yourself then you can use up to 2500L a year and pay no duty, above that and if bought commercially its about 30pL duty.

 

SVO is not the same as BioDiesel.

 

HMRC are certainly cracking down on SVO / Red use in cars and have testing vehicles out often in my local area.

 

Julian

For the purposes of duty I was able to get HMRC to agree that SVO IS biodiesel. I paid duty on it as biodiesel for four years (and 50000 miles) and stopped just before the 2500 litre regulations came in when I changed cars. My Peugeot 405 ran on SVO from Tesco using the heated second tank system, switching to dino diesel to stop and start the engine. I used a very detailed analysis of rape seed oil from the Canadian Canola marketing organisation to support my claim that it is the same as biodiesel.

[barroca grande]

My car is running on 100% Biodiesel from man who gets his oil form local indian restaurants etc. At 90p not much cheaper than normal diesel. He also says they are working on an additive which means I may not have to go to 50% come winter. He says it is okay to -5 at 100%.

 

I don't mind using biodiesel in this way because the oil has been used once and would otherwise go to landfill. However I do worry about commercial biodiesel and the effects on countries like Borneo where they are cutting down rain forest and planting palm trees for palm oil etc.

 

At the end of the day Biodiesel may not be the green option.

[Big Steve]

My car is running on 100% Biodiesel from man who gets his oil form local indian restaurants etc. At 90p not much cheaper than normal diesel. He also says they are working on an additive which means I may not have to go to 50% come winter. He says it is okay to -5 at 100%.

 

I don't mind using biodiesel in this way because the oil has been used once and would otherwise go to landfill. However I do worry about commercial biodiesel and the effects on countries like Borneo where they are cutting down rain forest and planting palm trees for palm oil etc.

 

At the end of the day Biodiesel may not be the green option.

 

Unless you know this man very well, be suspicious of what he is supplying you.

[tidal]

Pray tell me how you fine tune a modern diesel engine, many of which have computer control engine management and self regenerating catylitic converters.

 

A very valid point which brings forward the question that if they can't be tuned sufficiently should they be using the alternative fuels at all?

 

From a pollution point of view the answer is probably no.......

Guess it is all down to cost?

 

I wonder how poor tuning will affect the longevity of the engine......

 

Green, cheap, efficient.

 

Most of the time (so far) you can only get one out of three

 

 

I will now shut up to avoid hijacking the thread any further

[bottle]

It is quite easy to re-tune a computer controlled engine, you just re-map the computer.

[barroca grande]

Unless you know this man very well, be suspicious of what he is supplying you.

 

 

Now you are scaring me.

 

www.bioukfuels.co.uk

 

I am pretty sure he is kosher I had to fill out a form before he served me the first time. And it looks a decent set up. What I particularly like is being served by the same person all the time. Makes filling up a pleasure rather than a chore. Apart from in my case making sure I don't forget to fill up the Tuesday before I am likely to run out!

[jollyroger]

The problem is not if an engine will run on Bio, But what damage it could do to Injectors, Fuel pumps, seals Etc, as most have been designed for diesel oil not Bio.