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LL 1975

This is the remix to ignition

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Have an issue with my Canaline 52 HP engine. The ignition panel stopped working a week ago no lights no response when turning the key, the engine wouldn’t start. I located a 50 amp blown fuse on the starter motor and replaced it yesterday. However it promptly blew as soon as I tried to start it again. A bit stuck as to the next move. Thanks in advance LL

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... and, to start the fault finding process; when did the fuse blow? When inserted into the holder? When key moved to "heat" , "run" or "start"?

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48 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

... and, to start the fault finding process; when did the fuse blow? When inserted into the holder? When key moved to "heat" , "run" or "start"?

It’s the final turn of the key, so I guess “start”, the point that the key would rotate  to turn over the starter motor.

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6 hours ago, Sir Nibble said:

You will now get a succession of random guesses as to where the problem lies when what you actually need is fault finding technique.

You need a high power current consumer, a couple of headlamp bulbs for instance. Connect them ACROSS the fuse. They will light up to full brilliance when a short is present. Turn ignition on, do they light up? Try preheat, starter, when they light it tells you what circuit the problem is with. Having identified that start disconnecting consumers on that circuit (individual glow plugs for instance) until the fault goes away and Bob's your uncle. If it's in the wiring then pulling and flexing the harness whilst watching the lamps will soon track it down.

Thanks so much Nibble! 
so my issue here is:

1. I don’t have a large power draw headlight bulb - any suggestions on other options?

2. My totally confused GCE level electric knowledge is bamboozled at the thought I could put a positive and negative wire either side of a fuse (I’m thinking clip crocodile clip on one blade then second clip on the other blade) and somehow it would light up, am I imagining you said that? Where is the negative supply coming from - which lesson did I miss?!

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17 minutes ago, LL 1975 said:

It’s the final turn of the key, so I guess “start”, the point that the key would rotate  to turn over the starter motor.

Is the Dog of the stater motor 'siezed' in the engaged postion ?

 

(can you get a big spanner on the crankshaft nut and turn the engine over ?)

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13 minutes ago, LL 1975 said:

Thanks so much Nibble! 
so my issue here is:

1. I don’t have a large power draw headlight bulb - any suggestions on other options?

2. My totally confused GCE level electric knowledge is bamboozled at the thought I could put a positive and negative wire either side of a fuse (I’m thinking clip crocodile clip on one blade then second clip on the other blade) and somehow it would light up, am I imagining you said that? Where is the negative supply coming from - which lesson did I miss?!

The point is to detect a short circuit. So with the bulb across the already-blown fuse, when the short circuit is active (short circuit to negative) then one side of the fuse holder is connected to negative, the other side to positive, and hey presto the bulb illuminates.

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Is the Dog of the stater motor 'siezed' in the engaged postion ?

 

(can you get a big spanner on the crankshaft nut and turn the engine over ?)

If the fuse is 50A it won’t be taking the starter current, just the starter solenoid current.

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2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

The point is to detect a short circuit. So with the bulb across the already-blown fuse, when the short circuit is active (short circuit to negative) then one side of the fuse holder is connected to negative, the other side to positive, and hey presto the bulb illuminates.

If the fuse is 50A it won’t be taking the starter current, just the starter solenoid current.

Good point (unless the wrong fuse has been put in)

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29 minutes ago, LL 1975 said:

It’s the final turn of the key, so I guess “start”, the point that the key would rotate  to turn over the starter motor.

When you do that, you connect the positive supply to the solenoid on the starter motor. Typically this solenoid both throws the gear forwards to engage on the engine, and connects the battery positive directly to the starter motor windings. I would have a look on the starter body - normally there would be a fat wire connected to battery positive, and a thinner wire that is the solenoid connection. Perhaps this latter connection has come adrift and is touching metal casing somewhere, or maybe the wire is chafed somewhere.

 

Often with these sorts of engines there is a multi-way connector somewhere between the panel and the engine (usually on or near the engine) that passes the various signals and the starter solenoid current, so it would be a good idea to check this connector for any obvious issues.

 

You could also try disconnecting the smaller wire on the starter, and after ensuring that the dangling wire isn’t touching anything, operate the keyswitch (with a good fuse in). Nothing should happen. If the fuse blows again, it is definitely a wire shorting somewhere. If not, sounds like an internal problem with the starter.

Edited by nicknorman

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Canaline 52 will be a Kioti base engine, the Isuzu knock-off.

 

If they have faithfully copied the flaws in the Isuzu engine, your starter relay has welded itself shut.

 

Find the relays for your starter motor and your glowplugs, usually just the two together in one casing.

 

Replace the one with scorch marks ...

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21 hours ago, Sir Nibble said:

You will now get a succession of random guesses as to where the problem lies when what you actually need is fault finding technique.

You need a high power current consumer, a couple of headlamp bulbs for instance. Connect them ACROSS the fuse. They will light up to full brilliance when a short is present. Turn ignition on, do they light up? Try preheat, starter, when they light it tells you what circuit the problem is with. Having identified that start disconnecting consumers on that circuit (individual glow plugs for instance) until the fault goes away and Bob's your uncle. If it's in the wiring then pulling and flexing the harness whilst watching the lamps will soon track it down.

Any other options than a headlight bulb? I’ve got lots of 12v boat stuff but I don’t have this, could I for example put a voltmeter across the 2 terminals? If so what reading range would I be looking for?

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2 minutes ago, LL 1975 said:

I’ve not ruled this out actually, I replaced this stock originally supplied fuse (see pic)
 

with this one 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/352947479934

 

any thoughts?

 

 

Yup, that replaces what was in, but was the previous one correct ?

 

I think the general concensus is leaning more towards a problem in the solenoid or starter itself, but it is not making much sense that you have lost 'everything' because the starter motor fuse has blown,

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14 minutes ago, LL 1975 said:

Any other options than a headlight bulb? I’ve got lots of 12v boat stuff but I don’t have this, could I for example put a voltmeter across the 2 terminals? If so what reading range would I be looking for?

A voltmeter would not reliably differentiate between a high current load on the other end like the glow plugs and a short circuit, both would read 12V.

 

A headlamp bulb was mentioned because it would alter its brightness depending upon the load on the other end so with just the instruments and warning lamps energised it would be dim, the starter solenoid brighter, the glow plugs brighter still and the short circuit very bright. I suspect the voltmeter would read 12V in all cases.

 

You can't use the ammeter function on a multimeter because they can normally only handle 10 to 20 amps and even if it was a high current meter a short circuit would probably damage it.

 

Have you done what @TheBiscuits said? That is a simple check to look for scorch marks and should only take moments. Otherwise its careful fault finding much as @Sir Nibble said.

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8 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Yup, that replaces what was in, but was the previous one correct ?

 

I think the general concensus is leaning more towards a problem in the solenoid or starter itself, but it is not making much sense that you have lost 'everything' because the starter motor fuse has blown,

Starter motors have never been fused on any automotive, plant, or marine system I have worked on but the starter SOLENOID may be, often by fusing the supply to the ignition switch.

 

If there is a problem in the starter it will be in the solenoid, not the motor. @nicknorman gave a fast and sensible check to make. If that does not identify the fault its back to doing what @Sir Nibble suggested and I endorse.

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The 50A fuse will be the main feed to the control panel, the solenoid will not be separately fused.

 

Does the Canaline put the heaters on with the solenoid, many do?

 If so make sure nothing has dropped onto the engine shorting one of the heater plug tops to the metalwork.

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Ok, I have my errands done for the day and am in the engine bay now. I don’t have a high wattage bulb with me but have brought my other tools and equipment. I’ve checked for loose and damaged wires but have not looked for scorched parts just yet. 
 

You may collectively scold me but I have got the engine started by stripping the fuse of the plastic then pushing the separate blades back into position and clamping my pliers (rubber handled whilst I was also wearing gloves) across both blades and the engine started as normal. I wonder if this tells us anything? I guess what i did was the equivalent of putting an oversized fuse in place. Sorry for being naughty hopefully it wasn’t too idiotic as well. I’m really hoping it’s helped narrow down the issue. 

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43 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

A voltmeter would not reliably differentiate between a high current load on the other end like the glow plugs and a short circuit, both would read 12V.

 

A headlamp bulb was mentioned because it would alter its brightness depending upon the load on the other end so with just the instruments and warning lamps energised it would be dim, the starter solenoid brighter, the glow plugs brighter still and the short circuit very bright. I suspect the voltmeter would read 12V in all cases.

 

You can't use the ammeter function on a multimeter because they can normally only handle 10 to 20 amps and even if it was a high current meter a short circuit would probably damage it.

 

Have you done what @TheBiscuits said? That is a simple check to look for scorch marks and should only take moments. Otherwise its careful fault finding much as @Sir Nibble said.

Don’t laugh will my 12 v led strip work? 
 

59D4E788-FF2A-4E5A-83D7-0AE84A5BE9DD.jpeg

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13 minutes ago, LL 1975 said:

What’s the minimum draw ideally?

As much as possible. You need a high power incandescent bulb like Sir N suggested. LEDs draw 10% of sod all so are no good at all. What power is your tunnel light bulb as long as its not an LED? They often use 55 watt (4.5 Amp) halogen bulb. If so try that but I would expect it to be pretty much full brightness with modern heater lugs on but not with just the stater solenoid. If the heater plugs are on when starting you may have to disconnect their supply lead to get an indication for the starter solenoid alone.

 

However before getting on to that have yo done what @nicknorman and @TheBiscuits suggested. Both will only take moments and  may solve the issue.

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Ok so seemly some good progress being made. I used 3 x led strips which added up to 60 w so similar draw to the headlamp as suggested (5amp). I identified the glow plugs as the issue and have isolated them. Once isolated everything started as normal. 
 

saying that there are no obvious scorching around or near any of the 4 plugs I assume I remove them 1 by 1 and the faulty one should present it self, anything specific to look out for?

A4285907-4096-4EE1-B20C-C087A67BCB0A.jpeg

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Are the LEDs wired in series or parallel? They need to be in parallel.

 

If  @TheBiscuits are correct in that you have a glow plug relay then that fuse is probably only feeding the relay coil and that should only draw an amp or so. Pull the relay out and redo the test if the LEDs stay off then the relay coil has probably shorted (burned) out. If the LEDs come on then its a wiring short.

 

Edited to add: a 50 amp fuse to supply the state solenoid, relay coil and the warning amps 7 instruments seems very large to me so maybe it feeds the glow plugs directly. If so disconnect all the glow plugs and then connect the supply cable to each glow plug in turn and run the test. You may find just one plug lights the LEDS to full brightness and if so that one has a short. reconnect the rest until you have a chance to change it.

Edited by Tony Brooks

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4 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Are the LEDs wired in series or parallel? They need to be in parallel.

 

If  @TheBiscuits are correct in that you have a glow plug relay then that fuse is probably only feeding the relay coil and that should only draw an amp or so. Pull the relay out and redo the test if the LEDs stay off then the relay coil has probably shorted (burned) out. If the LEDs come on then its a wiring short.

 

They’re wired in parallel. 

 

I don’t understand your next point, let me know if this is what you meant:

 

If  @TheBiscuits are correct in that this type of engine has a glow plug relay then the fuse which keeps blowing  is probably only feeding the relay coil and that should only draw an amp or so. Pull the relay out and redo the test if the LEDs stay off then the relay coil has probably shorted (burned) out. If the LEDs come on then its a wiring short.
 

if this is what you meant why would there be a 50 amp fuse in place if the draw is only 1 amp? Also given I’ve disconnected the glow plugs and everything seems to be functioning well aren’t I best examining the glow plugs for a fault as a next step. 
finally I’m not sure what a relay for glow plugs would look like and or where I’d find it. 
 

 

 

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Read my edit above - I agree about fuse size. 

 

The relay, if there is one, will normally be a little square plastic cube, about 1" each way with four or five 6mm male blade connectors sticking out the bottom. It will probably be plugged into a base block and may be under a plastic box type cover.

 

The engine manual will tell you were it is but if you don't have one you will need to post photos of the whole engine area here or hope someone who has or has worked on your engine type to tell you.

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