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Alan de Enfield

CCing With School Age Children.

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I recently came across a powerpoint presentation made by C&RT explaining how boaters with School age children could CC and yet still keep within a reasonable distance of the school.

 

Is this the thin end of the wedge in a general relaxation in CCing requirements ?

 

It would certainly seem to be at odds with an email from The London Enforcement manager  (extract)

 

Within an acceptable range we’d expect a genuine movement, so for example it would not satisfy the Trust if a boat went on a 60 mile trip during the course of say two weeks, then returned to cruise in an area of say 5 miles the remainder of the time (figures are examples only).

It would also fly against the requirements stated in the Licence T&C's

 

Therefore, subject to stops of permitted duration, those using a boat licensed for continuous cruising
must genuinely be moving, in passage or in transit throughout the period of the licence.
Importantly, short trips within the same neighbourhood, and shuttling backwards and forwards along a
small part of the network do NOT meet the legal requirement for navigation throughout the period of
the licence

 

 

 

 

Here are a couple of 'Screen shots' of examples of acceptable travel based on going to school at Northchurch, and using Northchurch as the 'centre' of the cruising pattern.

 

image.png.c6c58fb25d2d617496a444c95fb6b70a.png

 

image.png.95049687c8b9d2f8cba4e3b5a466ec66.png

 

 

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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Looking in detail at the suggested cruising pattern, I don't see it as a "general relaxation in CCing requirements" - look at the places its suggesting, its a different place every 14 days. 

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It does seem worrying. 

Although I haven't heard the accompanying blurb of this presentation you mention, I don't see that chucking more vagaries into the already complex and unclear CC issue helpful to anyone.  Waterways aren't manned with enough feet on the towpath to contradict a defence like "I was in Linslade two days ago"  Too open to abuse for my liking.

I can imagine it being used against Waterways as a defence for someone dragging their mooring pins up and down the same stretch.

"I was only following CRT's own guidelines"

 

What are the chances of this being issued by a team somewhere who've been instructed to raise the profile of Welfare or Social Support.

So they have, without taking into account how it might steam across the bows of bigger issues.

There may well be colleagues of theirs in "Income Protection" or "Investigations into CC'ers" (I'm guessing at departments now) who are throwing their arms in their air even as we speak.

 

Waterways' big defence over the years against CM'ers has always been: -

We manage the Inland Waterways of England, Wales and Scotland.  We are not a Housing Authority"

Then they volunteer information that could contradict that.

Edited by zenataomm
I fell down a rabbit hole

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I don't think that's the case, I think its more simple, as in "We can't CC, we've got school-age children and need to be in one place"........."Yes you can, here's how".

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4 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I don't think that's the case, I think its more simple, as in "We can't CC, we've got school-age children and need to be in one place"........."Yes you can, here's how".

When I have needed to be in one place over the years for work or to run a business, the first thing I do is get a mooring. I have always found one.

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5 minutes ago, Paul C said:

I don't think that's the case, I think its more simple, as in "We can't CC, we've got school-age children and need to be in one place"........."Yes you can, here's how".

That to me is probably the case, however they don't mention working parents, the longer non term time  cruising may be difficult for some working parents (depending on the area).   So they seem also to be making it clear (to me at least) you can't use the kids and school as a reason for staying in a very small area or 52 weeks of the year.  They are expecting more movement every school holiday.

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Even if they're working they'd get annual leave.

 

PS well done on the recycling Alan.

Edited by Paul C

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2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I recently came across a powerpoint presentation made by C&RT explaining how boaters with School age children could CC and yet still keep within a reasonable distance of the school.

Could you provide a link to it so that people might get the bigger picture rather than just the bit that you think is the most interesting. 

 

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Is this the thin end of the wedge in a general relaxation in CCing requirements ?

I wonder why you would think that?

 

Because you've only provided one school as an example and we don't know what prompted CRT to make this power point. Taking into account the cruising recommendations that CRT have been making for a long time now and looking at the way the school my aunt works at structures their holidays, to me this looks like families trying to bend the rules because they have children but CRT are giving an example of how they are perfectly capable of having their children in school and still moving every two weeks and therefore don't have to rip the pee by sitting in one place for the six weeks of term or 12/13 weeks is the don't think they should have to move during the week long half term holidays. 

 

44 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

It does seem worrying. 

Does it? Why? 

44 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

Waterways' big defence over the years against CM'ers has always been: -

We manage the Inland Waterways of England, Wales and Scotland*.  We are not a Housing Authority"

Then they volunteer information that could contradict that.

Have they?

 

Scotland doesn't have CCers, all boats on Scottish Canals, except short stay guests, must have a home mooring.

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Paul C said:

PS well done on the recycling Alan.

I wondered this too but really didn't care about it that much to check and see. 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Even if they're working they'd get annual leave.

 

PS well done on the recycling Alan.

Enough to go cruising for every single school holiday?

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35 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

Because you've only provided one school as an example and we don't know what prompted CRT to make this power point. Taking into account the cruising recommendations that CRT have been making for a long time now and looking at the way the school my aunt works at structures their holidays, to me this looks like families trying to bend the rules because they have children but CRT are giving an example of how they are perfectly capable of having their children in school and still moving every two weeks and therefore don't have to rip the pee by sitting in one place for the six weeks of term or 12/13 weeks is the don't think they should have to move during the week long half term holidays. 

All I could find was the two PP presentations, but a quick search reveals much more going on behind it.

 

Apparently the NBTA negotiated with C&RT for something similar for a 'local family'.

 

"At least one Bargee Traveller family has successfully negotiated a Term Time Cruising Pattern with Canal & River Trust (C&RT) ahead of the new school year, as Nick Brown, National Bargee Travellers Association Legal Officer reports.

The family will spend term times within an approximate five mile stretch of waterway, staying no longer than 14 days in any one place unless a longer stay is reasonable in the circumstances".

 

(Lots more info on the NBTA website)

 

C&RT then was inundated by requests and they promised to release the required information / maps / cruising pattern requirements but then decided to withdraw them.

 

"The confirmation that at least one family has successfully negotiated a term time cruising pattern brings to an end 18 months of uncertainty and confusion after a report in February 2017 by the Waterways Ombusdman stated that C&RT would publish “illustrative cruising patterns” for Bargee Travellers with school age children".
 

 

There was a subsequent Interview on the Radio (as follows) :

 

 

 

In an interview on BBC Radio Wiltshire on 23rd April 2018, Matthew Symonds, C&RT’s Strategy and Engagement Manager was asked about C&RT’s statement that it “would help and publish these cruising patterns and then you decided not to”.


In reply, Mr Symonds said: “What we can’t do as some of your contributors have said, is tell boaters precisely how far they should move or what they should do because the law does not allow us to do that”. He added: “We think it is possible within that guidance to stay closer to schools, maybe during term time and travel further outside of term time. But what we can’t do is specify what that is.”


He continued “So, you see, moving smaller distances closer to your school in term time and the moving further away in holidays means that you can kind of meet that guidance.”


Here is the full text of the BBC Radio Wiltshire interview with C&RT.
BBC RADIO WILTSHIRE 23-04-2018 - BEN PRATER INTERVIEWING MATTHEW SYMONDS, C&RT


00:00 MS Good morning Ben

00:02 BP The accusation, by the sounds of it, is that you said you would help and publish these cruising patterns and then you decided not to…

00:08 MS Well, you know, living on a boat with children can be a great experience and … but it does require a bit more planning.

What we can’t do as some of your contributors have said, is tell boaters precisely how far they should move or what they should do because the law does not allow us to do that.

But we do have a guidance to help boaters, who are living on boats, plan their movement.
And we think it is possible within that guidance to stay closer to schools, maybe during term time and travel further outside of term time. But what we can’t do is specify what that is.

00:41 BP But, again, the accusation is that you said you would make it clear it but by the sounds of it you’ve led some people up the Towpath.

00:48 MS Well we are constrained by what we can do but what we would say is that if anyone is finding it difficult that they talk to our local teams on the canal and they will try and help them and give them advice within the limits that we have.

As I say is possible to stay within the guidance to live on a boat with children in school.
Many people do that on our canals but it does take a bit more planning and it can be challenging.


01:14 BP Yes, it can be challenging and people are struggling and to hear headteachers, I’m hearing, state that things should change.

I mean, how sympathetic to that message and how much you think sometimes people are just taking the mick at having the moon on a stick?

01:32 MS Well, I think, as I’ve said, it can be great living on the canal.

There are lots of advantages and it can be a great place to grow up with children.

But we have to be realistic.

It can be difficult as well, as your contributor said, living on a boat in the winter it’s not as easy as if you are living on land with all the kind of services on tap.

But, you know, you have to weigh up with different options and make your decision.
And if you want to live in a boat, as I say, it can be possible to do it, you get lots of advantages from that, but it requires a bit more planning…

and we are happy to talk to boaters who are finding it difficult…

but as I say what we can’t do is give them a prescribed distance of where they should travel to.


02:12 BP You can talk to them, you can slightly pander to them I suppose, but you can’t actually physically do anything to help them, then.

They would then be forced, if you can’t do anything to appease them, to go and live a different lifestyle.

02:24 MS Well, many people do manage to stay within our guidance on the Kennet and Avon…

02:28 BP … what is that they do that makes it possible then that the others aren’t managing to do?
There must be, in your eyes, a way of doing it that you’re just maybe being a bit too reserved to suggest they do.

02:40 MS Well, as I say, we are not allowed to be prescriptive.

But our guidance says that over the year of your licence you have to travel a range of 20 miles.
That doesn’t mean you have to travel 20 miles each time you move.

So, you see, moving smaller distances closer to your school in term time and the moving further away in holidays means that you can kind of meet that guidance.

It is possible if you plan it.

03:02 BP And legally: how sound is your argument, because we were hearing from other guests earlier throwing a whole load of legislation out there to say what you suggest isn’t bound by any law.

So people are – what – within their rights to do what they want, and to keep contesting this with you?

03:20 MS Well, the law that we are governed by is not as clear as anyone would like.

It just uses the word “bona fide navigation” without being clear about what that means.

So we have to interpret that because as the people who look after the canal we have to manage that space fairly for everybody.

So the guidance is there to help boaters.

But we have to make sure that if you don’t have a mooring you do move around, you’re not staying in a small place all the time so that that space is available for everybody to use whether you are mooring there for a short period of time whether you’re walking on the canals feeding the ducks, whether you’re rowing, fishing… whatever you might be doing on the water we have to manage that space fairly for everybody.

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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The last time you pulled these power point thingys out it was in relation to a Narrowboat world article about how CRT are making children walk too far to get to school so now I'm getting confused as to whether CRT are being too harsh or too soft. Being a bear of very little brain that happens a lot so I've stopped worrying about it. :D

 

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There's another aspect to this which is perhaps slightly O/T..... In my area it is hard enough to get a child into a school within catchment area, especially if it is one of the better performing and hence popular ones. If you are a CCer then surely as far as the schools and council are concerned you are not resident in any particular area (and hence catchment) so no school or authority is duty bound to accept the child - is that correct ? 

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2 minutes ago, jradley said:

There's another aspect to this which is perhaps slightly O/T..... In my area it is hard enough to get a child into a school within catchment area, especially if it is one of the better performing and hence popular ones. If you are a CCer then surely as far as the schools and council are concerned you are not resident in any particular area (and hence catchment) so no school or authority is duty bound to accept the child - is that correct ? 

Before I retired which was a number of years ago the situation was:

 

If the school had places it was difficult to refuse to take them.  If it was full (on paper) you could refuse them.  However most schools bend over backwards to take children who are having trouble.

 

We once took a full class over our designated numbers because the local Grammar school (yes they do still exist) had filled with pupils from outside the catchment and it meant some kids would (if we hadn't taken them) have to travel nearly 40 miles to school.

 

To return to walking too far.  By statute children under 8 can be expected to walk 2 miles over that transport must be provided.  Under 16 they can be expected to walk 3 miles over that again transport must be provided.  This is assuming you are in the catchment area.   Under those distances either walk or at parental cost.

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11 minutes ago, jradley said:

so no school or authority is duty bound to accept the child - is that correct ? 

No - schools are legally bound to accept children from 'traveller families'

 

The NBTA seem to stretch the definition of "travellers"

 

The Government advice issued by the Department for Children, Schools & Families

 

 

The advice explains what the law says and describes some good ideas about school attendance for Gypsy, Roma and Traveller pupils.
For the purposes of this advice only, the term ‘Gypsy, Roma and Traveller families’ means:
a) •
i. Gypsies inc. Romanies, Romanichals, Welsh Gypsies/Kaale, Scottish Gypsies/Travellers;
ii. Irish Travellers, Minceir;
iii. Roma from Eastern and Central Europe;
iv. Showmen (Fairground people);
v. Circus people;
vi. Boat Travellers/Bargees;
vii. New Travellers or New Age Travellers; and


b) the parent/carer is engaged in a trade or business of such a nature that requires them to • travel from place to place.

 

This advice on school attendance only applies to families who meet the criteria at both a) and b) above.
In this advice the term ‘travelling’ means travelling as part of the parents’/carers’ trade or business. It does not mean travelling as part of a holiday or extended holiday.

 

 

Also :

 

"When travelling, a parent/carer has the right to enrol their child at another school. Schools may need to consider how they can support children who enrol in this way, with particular reference to issues such as school uniform, in order that their actions and requirements are not seen as discriminatory".

Edited by Alan de Enfield

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3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No - schools are legally bound to accept children from 'traveller families'

 

The advice explains what the law says and describes some good ideas about school attendance for Gypsy, Roma and Traveller pupils.
For the purposes of this advice only, the term ‘Gypsy, Roma and Traveller families’ means:
a) •


vi. Boat Travellers/Bargees;

b) the parent/carer is engaged in a trade or business of such a nature that requires them to • travel from place to place.

 

This advice on school attendance only applies to families who meet the criteria at both a) and b) above.
 

Thanks for the info - Based on the spreadsheet of suggested cruising route I think it would be hard to justify part b), noting the "requires" them to travel from place to place.

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7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

No - schools are legally bound to accept children from 'traveller families'

 

The NBTA seem to stretch the definition of "travellers"

 

The Government advice issued by the Department for Children, Schools & Families

 

 

The advice explains what the law says and describes some good ideas about school attendance for Gypsy, Roma and Traveller pupils.
For the purposes of this advice only, the term ‘Gypsy, Roma and Traveller families’ means:
a) •
i. Gypsies inc. Romanies, Romanichals, Welsh Gypsies/Kaale, Scottish Gypsies/Travellers;
ii. Irish Travellers, Minceir;
iii. Roma from Eastern and Central Europe;
iv. Showmen (Fairground people);
v. Circus people;
vi. Boat Travellers/Bargees;
vii. New Travellers or New Age Travellers; and


b) the parent/carer is engaged in a trade or business of such a nature that requires them to • travel from place to place.

 

This advice on school attendance only applies to families who meet the criteria at both a) and b) above.
In this advice the term ‘travelling’ means travelling as part of the parents’/carers’ trade or business. It does not mean travelling as part of a holiday or extended holiday.

One point I think the school would raise is, traveller families are itinerant and by definition don't stay long.   I have taught travellers and I think half a term is the longest we every had an individual.

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14 minutes ago, Jerra said:

One point I think the school would raise is, traveller families are itinerant and by definition don't stay long.   I have taught travellers and I think half a term is the longest we every had an individual.

 

Travellers register at a 'base school' and then are accepted at any school they apply to during the course of their travels.

 

4. All children, including those from Gypsy, Roma and Traveller families, can be on the register at more than one school. This is known as ‘dual registration’.
5. A ‘base school’ is the school that a child from a Gypsy, Roma or Traveller family most recently attended during the preceding 18 months, when the family was not travelling. The legislation calls it the ‘school of ordinary attendance’.
6. If a school is the base school for a dual-registered child from a Gypsy, Roma or Traveller family, the law says the school cannot remove that child from the register just because they have registered at another school. However, nothing prevents schools other than the base school from doing so if the child is no longer attending. If a school needs specific advice regarding removing a child from its register, it should consult its local authority before taking any action.

 

15. The law recognises that Gypsy, Roma and Traveller families may have an additional reason to keep their children from school, which is different from non-Gypsy, Roma and Traveller families. This is that children are of ‘no fixed abode’ (see paragraphs 17 and 18) and their parent(s) are engaged in a trade or business that requires them to travel from place to place and therefore prevents them attending school. Nevertheless, each child must attend school as regularly as that trade or business permits, and children over six years old have to attend at least 200 sessions in each rolling 12-month period.

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12 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Travellers register at a 'base school' and then are accepted at any school they apply to during the course of their travels.

 

The point being this works for travellers but if you are attending the same school for terms on end you aren't a traveller and a full school will definitely be challenging the status.

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1 hour ago, Tumshie said:

 

"It does seem worrying."

Does it? Why? 

For the very reasons I went on to explain.

1 hour ago, Tumshie said:

 

"Then they volunteer information that could contradict that."

Have they?

 

Exactly which part of the word could  are you struggling with?

 

1 hour ago, Tumshie said:

Scotland doesn't have CCers, all boats on Scottish Canals, except short stay guests, must have a home mooring.

….. and you can't buy candy floss from MacFisheries.  

Which is equally irrelevant.

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2 hours ago, mrsmelly said:

When I have needed to be in one place over the years for work or to run a business, the first thing I do is get a mooring. I have always found one.

why does someone always have to point out the obvious and spoil the thread?  :rolleyes:

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3 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

For the very reasons I went on to explain.

I'm glad your explanation made sense to you. But fair enough. 

 

5 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

Exactly which part of the word could  are you struggling with?

The part where they don't seem to be contradicting themselves. But if you don't want to elaborate thats ok. 

 

6 minutes ago, zenataomm said:

….. and you can't buy candy floss from MacFisheries.  

Which is equally irrelevant.

The whole of the topic is about CCers which Scotland doesn't have so completely relevant. 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Tumshie said:

I'm glad your explanation made sense to you. But fair enough. 

 

The part where they don't seem to be contradicting themselves. But if you don't want to elaborate thats ok. 

 

The whole of the topic is about CCers which Scotland doesn't have so completely relevant. 

 

 

Oy Tumsh, was just thinking. In jockland do you have to have a mooring to get a licence?? You will be quicker than google for mi answer? Taa

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1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

Oy Tumsh, was just thinking. In jockland do you have to have a mooring to get a licence?? You will be quicker than google for mi answer? Taa

You can visit and sail through with out having a home mooring but you can only stay for a prearranged time but if you are keeping your boat on the canal you must have a home mooring you can then sail /boat back and forth as much as you like but it you have a home mooring at a cheaper less popular mooring and you keep hogging the more expensive and more popular ones SC get a bit shirty with you. If you have a residential mooring they are only available in certain areas and obviously you can boat about but again you can't pick a cheap mooring at one end of the canal and then set up home at the other. 

 

I don't know how strict they are between Edinburgh and Glasgow but we have a lot of tourist boating on the Caley so that might make a difference to how strict they are up here though I find them really nice and pleasant to deal with in the SC office. 

 

https://www.scottishcanals.co.uk

 

https://www.scottishcanals.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/2019-Long-Term-Licence-and-Mooring-TCs.pdf

 

https://www.scottishcanals.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Short-Term-Licence-booklet-2019.pdf

 

Lots of locals keep a mooring in tidal waters and just scoot back and forth on a visitors pass it doesn't take long to get from one end of the Caley to the other if you don't stop to do the tourist thing. 

 

ETA I suppose the short answer is yes (kinda)

 

Edited by Tumshie
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1 hour ago, mrsmelly said:

Oy Tumsh, was just thinking. In jockland do you have to have a mooring to get a licence?? You will be quicker than google for mi answer? Taa

A 7-day visitors transit licence for the Caledonian Canal costs us £250 (we are only 11 metres)

or, we could have a 30 day 'explorer licence' for £700

 

They know how to charge !!!

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20 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A 7-day visitors transit licence for the Caledonian Canal costs us £250 (we are only 11 metres)

or, we could have a 30 day 'explorer licence' for £700

 

They know how to charge !!!

Manchester Ship Canal is £200 for a 6 hour transit permit, and you need a £60ish survey first!

 

 

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