Narrow boat fridge

[Nemysys]

Our current fridge is a 12v/240v/gas powered fridge.

 

going to be doing a refit of the boat soon, and considered replacing the fridge. 

 

I’ve just read that you can no longer install a 12v/240v/gas fridge. Can I continue to use the one I currently have? I find the gas part good so I don’t have to drain the onboard batteries when the engine is not running.

 

any comments?

 

thanks

[MtB]

22 minutes ago, Nemysys said:

I’ve just read that you can no longer install a 12v/240v/gas fridge.

 

That'll be news to most of us here! Why not? Where did you read this?

 

I think if you press anyone claiming this to cite a rule or regulation preventing a gas fridge being used on a boat, they will be hard pressed to come up with one.

 

About the closest I can think of is that the instruction manual for your fridge probably does not state it is approved by the manufacturer for installation in boats, which some BSS inspectors may find a problem, or a new boat cannot have a non 'room-sealed' gas appliance (that is not a cooker) to comply with the RCD.

 

Not sure I've ever heard of an actual BSS fail due to the presence of a gas fridge. Has anyone else here heard of this happening? 

 

 

 

[Nemysys]

I read it at the link below.

our current fridge passed the last BSS 4 years ago, due for a new BSS shortly.

 

 

https://www.canalboat.co.uk/canal-boats/keep-your-cool-1-3675451

 

<quote>

Caravan gas powered fridges, which offer 12v, gas or mains operation, should be avoided. You are no longer permitted to install this type of fridge running on gas on a canal boat, though you are permitted to continue to service one which was installed prior to the ban.

</quote>

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, Nemysys said:

I read it at the link below...

Which just goes to prove the old adage that you shouldn’t believe everything you read on a web page somewhere.

 

He writes only part of the story which, without caveats, disclaimers and a fuller explanation, amounts to misinformation. 

 

I doubt @Tony Brooks had the opportunity to proof read that article. 

[MtB]

9 minutes ago, Nemysys said:

I read it at the link below.

our current fridge passed the last BSS 4 years ago, due for a new BSS shortly.

 

 

https://www.canalboat.co.uk/canal-boats/keep-your-cool-1-3675451

 

<quote>

Caravan gas powered fridges, which offer 12v, gas or mains operation, should be avoided. You are no longer permitted to install this type of fridge running on gas on a canal boat, though you are permitted to continue to service one which was installed prior to the ban.

</quote>

 

Which as I suggested, fails to cite any official rule or regulation to support this assertion. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

10 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Which as I suggested, fails to cite any official rule or regulation to support this assertion. 

 

 

The BSS states that on petrol engines non-private boats gas fridges without flame traps are not allowed following a series of explosions/fires.

 

There were plans to implement this over to private boats but the proposal was dropped.

 

 

 

The provisions of this section of Part 8 in the 2002 BSS Standards are mandatory for non-private boats where applicable.

There have been numerous explosions resulting from the use of gas refrigerators with naked flames on petrol-powered boats. The low level permanent flame of a pilot light or burner could be the prime source of ignition for any stray petrol fuel or vapour. To prevent this happening the pilot lights and burners on LPG or paraffin refrigerators installed in boats with a petrol engine must be completely enclosed by a suitable flame trap.

When starting to re-fuel, a flash explosion occurred that blew out the cabin windows and injured a woman, though fortunately no fire started. It was determined that even with the petrol pump nozzle fully inserted into the deck fuel connection, sufficient petrol vapour was produced to rise over the 175mm coaming, travel along the cockpit floor and into the cabin to be ignited by the permanent low-level burner flame on a LPG fridge. Before starting to fill, the pump attendant had asked specifically if any appliances were operating on board and was told “no”. [8.2]

Combustion air and combustion products must be drawn and expelled through a suitable flame trap. Alternatively, combustion air can be piped to the appliance from outside the vessel, or from a point inside the vessel above the level of any opening to the outside air. [8.2]

 

Edited June 12, 2019 by Alan de Enfield

[peterboat]

I would take the opportunity to maybe upgrade to a compressor type fridge in the refit

[Nemysys]

Thank you for the update and rationale.

47 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Which just goes to prove the old adage that you shouldn’t believe everything you read on a web page somewhere.

 

He writes only part of the story which, without caveats, disclaimers and a fuller explanation, amounts to misinformation. 

 

I doubt @Tony Brooks had the opportunity to proof read that article. 

Which is why I asked. Thank you.

 

[Nemysys]

Based on this info, if I was to replace the current 12/240/gas fridge which I am guessing without being there to measure it, is about 500mm wide, what would you suggest? I think it is an Electrolux, at least 10 years old.

 

Currently the fridge has a small icebox. We only use the boat for short trips, so freezing a pack of sausages or so is all we need. Fridge space for beer is more important. ?

 

As a rule, when we are out, the engine is running for several hours, generating 240v, we have an inverter (4kva) and a pair of 110ah batteries. So need to run the fridge for probably 16 hours a day on battery.

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, Nemysys said:

As a rule, when we are out, the engine is running for several hours, generating 240v

Are you sure ?

Normally the alternator would be producing 12v and charging the batteries.

 

The inverter then takes the 12v DC from the batteries and 'changes' it into 240v AC

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Are you sure ?

Normally the alternator would be producing 12v and charging the batteries.

 

The inverter then takes the 12v DC from the batteries and 'changes' it into 240v AC

Unless he has a TravelPower

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

Unless he has a TravelPower

Indeed, it is possible, but I would have thought it would have been included in the 'list' of electrical stuff.

[Nemysys]

we definitely produce 240v when the engine is running. We have a box which is rated at 4kva, which is powered from an alternator.

 

we also have a pure sine wave invertor also rated at 4kva, which we haven’t used for a while. No need to.

 

It is more than enough to power a 240v vacuum, when the engine is running.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Nemysys

[TheBiscuits]

12 minutes ago, Nemysys said:

So need to run the fridge for probably 16 hours a day on battery.

It's worth noting that a decent compressor fridge that's at the correct temperature might only run for 5 minutes every half an hour or so.

[Nemysys]

Thanks, I assumed it was a constant current.

 

suppose that explains why a small gas flame can keep it cold.

 

Edited June 12, 2019 by Nemysys

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, WotEver said:

Which just goes to prove the old adage that you shouldn’t believe everything you read on a web page somewhere.

 

He writes only part of the story which, without caveats, disclaimers and a fuller explanation, amounts to misinformation. 

 

I doubt @Tony Brooks had the opportunity to proof read that article. 

 

Canal Boat recently republished an article about boat fridges I had written for them a few years ago in which I said that I would be perfectly happy with a gas fridge as long as it was properly maintained. I also gave the usual caveats about only on diesel boats and that it might be contrary to the RCD to fit one to a new boat because of it not being CE marked for boat use.. This resulted in a Gassafe bod writing in to say if a Gassafe engineer found a  gas fridge they would have to disconnect it and ban further use immediately. I pointed out that rather him than me because if he did it to one of the later Dometic room sealed fridges he may well find himself in court. I also pointed out that on private holiday boats  the Gassafe write did not run. Corgi and now Gassafe seem to be writing their own rules.

 

I did not write or contribute to the piece linked to but suspect it may have been, in part, based on the earlier article. I rarely get to proof read any technical pieces and the editors mangle my own work from time to time. In fact no Canal boat staff get an input into what adverts appear as far as I can tell, hence the ridiculous electric heating advertorial of last year.

[WotEver]

6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

... the ridiculous electric heating advertorial of last year.

Which, if you’re unaware of the fact, was criticised by the ASA and they must never run it again. 

34 minutes ago, Nemysys said:

we definitely produce 240v when the engine is running. We have a box which is rated at 4kva, which is powered from an alternator.

A TravelPower then, or similar. 

[Johny London]

My thought too - Surely "a box" that produces 240v at 4kva off an alternator  is an inverter?

 

I think most of the Shoreline fridges are quite small - certainly the fridge freezer I have here is only 500mm wide. Infact it is 48mm w x 130mm tall. An interesting thing about this too - someone once told me that it was mains fridges that kill the batteries - I'm not just talking about power consumption here - what the person said was that they have a very high surge every time they cycle on - and it is true that if I was cruising I could tell when the fridge came on as there was a blip in the rpm. The 12v one I have, I'm not saying it somehow cools as much for magically less power, but you cannot detect when it kicks in. I thought the guy was talking nonsense at the time but maybe there is something to it? So I would say get a shoreline (should that be [loseyour]shirtline on account of the cost!!!?)

Edited June 12, 2019 by Johny London

[WotEver]

37 minutes ago, Nemysys said:

we also have a pure sine wave invertor also rated at 4kva, which we haven’t used for a while. No need to

With only two 110Ah batteries it wouldn’t last long with much of a load on it anyway. 

1 minute ago, Johny London said:

Surely "a box" that produces 240v at 4kva off an alternator  is an inverter?

Or it’s a TravelPower. 

[TheBiscuits]

18 minutes ago, Nemysys said:

Thanks, I assumed it was a constant current.

 

suppose that explains why a small gas flame can keep it cold.

 

The three way absorption fridges run flat out all the time on 12V, presumably because they were designed for caravans so were expected to be connected to a running car alternator all the time they were in 12V mode.

 

The 12V compressor fridges are an entirely different beast, but are pricey.

 

As you have a decent inverter and travelpower, you might be as well thinking about getting an A+++ rated mains fridge for around £100, especially if you have solar to supplement your battery charging.

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, WotEver said:

With only two 110Ah batteries it wouldn’t last long with much of a load on it anyway. 

A 1kw Immersion heater for an hour ?

[TheBiscuits]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A 1kw Immersion heater for an hour ?

I thought you had stopped running the immersion heater off the inverter, Alan!

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

A 1kw Immersion heater for an hour ?

Only if they were fully charged and nothing else switched on

[Nemysys]

4 minutes ago, WotEver said:

With only two 110Ah batteries it wouldn’t last long with much of a load on it anyway. 

Or it’s a TravelPower. 

We have a pure sine wave inverter which we can use with the engine off. Draining batteries.

 

‘The 240v while the engine is on, is a completely different system, so I presume some sort of travel power? We have at least 2 alternators (maybe 3), (I’m not mechanical, I understand electrics more), I thought one of the alternators was producing 240v anyway?. The box I mentioned is about the size of an a4 bit of paper, blue and white, with a black and red button on it. On and off. It does dip the engine revs when turned on. I will post a picture soon. But is completely separate to the inverter.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

I thought you had stopped running the immersion heater off the inverter, Alan!

I now have a 'check-list' laminated and at the helm.

 

(To check when starting and stopping engine)

 

 

Departure Checks.docx