RCD?

[Splodger]

I'm looking to buy a 3 year old wide beam but it doesn't have a RCD certificate. Should I walk away or try to negotiate down the price accordingly?

[ditchcrawler]

The choice is yours, but as I understand it, it is against the law to sell a boat like that and I think it would also be against the law for you to sell it on at a future date.

[Ally]

It MUST be RCD'd at that age. It is illegal to sell without one.

[smileypete]

AFAIK once the boat is 5 years old you can sell without an RCD. So If you bought it and had to sell within 2 years you'd face the same problem. Depends if you really like it enough to take that risk I s'pose...

 

It may be possible to retrospectively RCD it, though even if possible it's likely to be a *lot* of hassle.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited November 13, 2013 by smileypete

[Paul C]

Personally I'd avoid it but there is a market for this kind of boat, with the massive price reduction it brings. Not sure but you might be able to 'bring it up' to RCD standards including all the paperwork, by finishing the project, and thus adding value to it.

[Tony Brooks]

If the vendor can not provide the annex (whatever) declaration of hull conformity I would definitely walk away. If they can then there is a chance you could complete the RCD yourself.

 

Be warned about the 5 year thing. I have had a few questions where surveyors have warned prospective purchaser off boats legitimately on the market without an RCD and have advised a massive price reduction.

 

AS far as I can understand it the boat you are talking about at present only has scrap value.

[dmr]

If the vendor can not provide the annex (whatever) declaration of hull conformity I would definitely walk away. If they can then there is a chance you could complete the RCD yourself.

 

Be warned about the 5 year thing. I have had a few questions where surveyors have warned prospective purchaser off boats legitimately on the market without an RCD and have advised a massive price reduction.

 

AS far as I can understand it the boat you are talking about at present only has scrap value.

 

I think "scrap value" is a bit harsh. I suspect any boat with a decent fit out would sell for a lot of money in London. Looking at eBay it looks like some London boats that really are scrap are given a new fit out and then advertised at very high prices.

 

i thought any self built boat could be sold after 5 years without an RCD, has this changed? and even if the first sale is strictly illegal does it then become legitimate after 5 years?

Out of interest, in the case of motor vehicles without any documentation there is an "official loophole" for "discovered vehicles". is there a boat equivalent????

 

...........Dave

 

edited to insert a missing word!

Edited November 13, 2013 by dmr

[Tony Brooks]

If you think taking part in an illegal act is acceptable then it probably is a bit harsh but without a valid RCD then scrap is all it is. It is simply illegal to sell it.

 

We need qualified legal opinion on the point about selling after 5 years with no RCD. I think its fine with a self fit-out WITH the Annex? declaration for the hull but would be unsure without it. What I do know is that I have had a few questions about surveyors raising doubts in purchasers minds when self build, no RCD boats are legally placed on the market so is it wise to take such a boat on unless at a large discount to allow for a potential low sale price later on.

[Splodger]

Thanks to everyone for the sound advice.

[Ally]

Regardless of legalities, I would be asking WHY its being sold without one? Self build laziness? Lack of knowledge? Noncompliance? Either way, none of them would be a good sign for the safety of you and the boat.

[Bee]

You really need a declaration from the hull builder that it complied with the essential requirements at the time it was sold, the 5 year rule is, I think from the date when the boat was commissioned and not when it was delivered as a shell, my boat was three years in the building so I couldn`t start counting until it went in the water. I self declared mine. I have never heard of any individual having problems with the RCD, it is, as far as I know, a heap of rules and regs mostly aimed at manufacturers to impose various standards to ensure fair competition and not a kind of European BSS. It is not easy to find out the actual requirements as you can read pages and pages of stuff and be none the wiser. Personally I would be happy if the shell was built by a builder and not knocked up by a bloke in a pub and it had a BSS, a few quid off would be good and some photos of work in progress also. I know that my boat doesn`t comply on one thing, the letter punches I used to fill in the details on the builders plate are 2mm too small, that gives you an idea of the pedantry you can get into.

[Ally]

You really need a declaration from the hull builder that it complied with the essential requirements at the time it was sold, the 5 year rule is, I think from the date when the boat was commissioned and not when it was delivered as a shell, my boat was three years in the building so I couldn`t start counting until it went in the water. I self declared mine. I have never heard of any individual having problems with the RCD, it is, as far as I know, a heap of rules and regs mostly aimed at manufacturers to impose various standards to ensure fair competition and not a kind of European BSS. It is not easy to find out the actual requirements as you can read pages and pages of stuff and be none the wiser. Personally I would be happy if the shell was built by a builder and not knocked up by a bloke in a pub and it had a BSS, a few quid off would be good and some photos of work in progress also. I know that my boat doesn`t comply on one thing, the letter punches I used to fill in the details on the builders plate are 2mm too small, that gives you an idea of the pedantry you can get into.

The RCD is effectively the CE mark for a boat. The size of the stamped CIN number is a tiny issue. It aims to ensure everything from the soundness and safety of the hull to the gas systems, electrical systems, engine and so forth. It is inclusive of all relevant systems and fittings. A CBA builder will, these days,, need to issue both an RCD and a BSS.

[ditchcrawler]

So how do all these new Narrowboats with RCD markings get away with navigation lights that dont comply with Col regs. and the owners manuals with no wiring diagrams

[Bee]

Ally, I think what you say is correct but the RCD does cause problems such as the OP is concerned about, Ditchcrawler mentions a couple, Tony Brooks mentions `scrap value` wheras I would be happy with some history and a BSS, the actual requirements are, for most people, a complete mystery, it is impossible for most people to check whether an installation is ok as the information is virtually secret and not publically available except at great expense, a bit of common sense and you can get a good idea whether a boat is ok for the BSS. personally I think that if a boat is self certified it is almost meaningless, if it is bought from new with a makers RCD it doesn`t mean much either until you get into the offshore categories, it might be some help if you have to sue but its `policed` by trading standards (I think) I don`t think it is a reliable yardstick of the state of the boat but the lack of one could condemn an ok boat.

[raymondh]

Hi All

I am sure that if you buy a boat covered by the RCD legislation knowing that it is under 5 years old and not CE marked then both the buyer and seller could be prosecuted resulting in a fine or prison

I quote

"Is it illegal to buy or sell a boat with no CE marking?

If the vessel was placed into service in the EU after 16th June 1998, then generally, with some exceptions, this would be illegal and could incur a fine or prison sentence.

I'm building a boat for my own use. Do I need it CE marked?

Not if it is home built as defined in the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD). However, you then cannot sell it for five years from the date of it entering service."

 

Why would you risk a criminal record just to save afew quid on an illegal sale (I do not know what the law says on how long after the offence you will not be prosecuted)

 

Also how do you get insurance? and would a BSS examiner even look at certifying an illegal boat? Licence etc?

 

Regards Ray

[raymondh]

So how do all these new Narrowboats with RCD markings get away with navigation lights that dont comply with Col regs. and the owners manuals with no wiring diagrams

Just for ditchcrawler

 

You should bear in mind that builders of category D boats can self-certify them for RCD compliance. This means that there is no requirement for a surveyor or Boat Safety Scheme examiner to inspect the boat before you take delivery of it. You may be relying entirely on the skill and integrity of the builder to provide you with a safe and serviceable boat

 

Ray

[Keith M]

So how do all these new Narrowboats with RCD markings get away with navigation lights that dont comply with Col regs. and the owners manuals with no wiring diagrams

 

 

This is a very common problem

The documentation is always very poor

But because no every takes the time to pursue the matter boat builders get away with it

A lot of owners are very aware that they should chase the builder for the correct paper they are just glad to get the finish boat which is often late

 

Keith

[ditchcrawler]

Just for ditchcrawler

 

You should bear in mind that builders of category D boats can self-certify them for RCD compliance. This means that there is no requirement for a surveyor or Boat Safety Scheme examiner to inspect the boat before you take delivery of it. You may be relying entirely on the skill and integrity of the builder to provide you with a safe and serviceable boat

 

Ray

Thank but I knew that which is why there are boats out there being sold with RCD markings that do not comply

[dmr]

We have owned and lived on a Non RCD boat for several years now and the world has not ended. Neither the BSS man, nor trading standards (or BW, or the insurance company, or anybody at all in fact) has asked to see our paper work.

After reading this thread (and others) I have just a little concern that she might be a bit harder to sell on, but if we do ever sell I hope it is to someone who is interested in boats rather than documents.

The boat slipped through on the "owner fit out sold after 5 years" clause so is legit. In fact even the navigation lights are correct, You need big jobbies on a 70 foot boat, I hit them everytime I walk down the gunnels!

 

............Dave

[Keith M]

We have owned and lived on a Non RCD boat for several years now and the world has not ended. Neither the BSS man, nor trading standards (or BW, or the insurance company, or anybody at all in fact) has asked to see our paper work.

After reading this thread (and others) I have just a little concern that she might be a bit harder to sell on, but if we do ever sell I hope it is to someone who is interested in boats rather than documents.

The boat slipped through on the "owner fit out sold after 5 years" clause so is legit. In fact even the navigation lights are correct, You need big jobbies on a 70 foot boat, I hit them everytime I walk down the gunnels!

 

............Dave

 

The only way trading standards will get involve is if some one contacts them

So it comes back to the owner making sure the the boat builder completes all of the paper work

And that all of his installation comply with all of the current regulation

Good Luck

 

Keith

[Bettie Boo]

Hi All,

 

Very informative thread, below are the comments I received from the gentleman who owns the boat we are going to look at this Saturday, (just a couple of answers to a long list of questions I asked him before making the trip up north)

 

Do they "hold water" (sorry, bad pun)?

 

20)I can't find the boat safety certificate at home think it may be on the boat, they usually last for 5 yr, but in any case the boat will require a full safety certificate for a sale to take place, as the one I have is for self builders and not suitable for the purpose of sale. The cost of this would be down to me.

I thought a BSS was good for 4 years? but all the same is it correct that he (the owner/fitter) will be able to get the BSS (assuming the boat complies with the Safety requirements)?
21) licence runs out end of November but will be renewed for next 12 months and also has a CE number which will be stamped on the boat. Won't the CaRT licence need to be sorted out by us as I was under the impression that they are not transferable from seller to buyer? Have I misunderstood that?

 

Little more info.....the seller had the hull built at a boatyard as a sailaway for himself and his partner in 2010, finished the internal fit out himself being a qualified tradesman, along with the help of mates who were also "qualified sparkie & chippy" no idea who did the gas fittings at this point, but will be sure to find out. I believe the fit out was completed in 2011/2012, in time for the 2012 "season".

 

Does it "sound" like he's in a position to sell this boat legally?

 

Regards,

 

B~

 

[dor]

Hi All,

 

Very informative thread, below are the comments I received from the gentleman who owns the boat we are going to look at this Saturday, (just a couple of answers to a long list of questions I asked him before making the trip up north)

 

Do they "hold water" (sorry, bad pun)?

 

20)I can't find the boat safety certificate at home think it may be on the boat, they usually last for 5 yr, but in any case the boat will require a full safety certificate for a sale to take place, as the one I have is for self builders and not suitable for the purpose of sale. The cost of this would be down to me.

I thought a BSS was good for 4 years? but all the same is it correct that he (the owner/fitter) will be able to get the BSS (assuming the boat complies with the Safety requirements)?

21) licence runs out end of November but will be renewed for next 12 months and also has a CE number which will be stamped on the boat. Won't the CaRT licence need to be sorted out by us as I was under the impression that they are not transferable from seller to buyer? Have I misunderstood that?

 

Little more info.....the seller had the hull built at a boatyard as a sailaway for himself and his partner in 2010, finished the internal fit out himself being a qualified tradesman, along with the help of mates who were also "qualified sparkie & chippy" no idea who did the gas fittings at this point, but will be sure to find out. I believe the fit out was completed in 2011/2012, in time for the 2012 "season".

 

Does it "sound" like he's in a position to sell this boat legally?

 

Regards,

 

B~

 

 

No.

 

The BSS is for 4 years and he can get one anytime regardless of the RCD. However it does not replace the RCD for a boat under 5 years. The license is transferable. Normally done by the broker notifying C&RT of the change of ownership. There is also a form that comes with the license to notify change of ownership. Only moorings are normally not transferable.

 

I would most certainly want to see a gas certificate issued by a Gassafe engineer with appropriate LPG AND boat tickets. This is nothing to do with RCD or BSS. A boatyard that has an appropriately qualified engineer can do this.

 

I would check a self-certified boat very carefully. Much better to have an independent surveyor prepare the documentation for you.

 

ETA: And also the "sparky" would have to know about boat electrics as well. Domestic electricians generally don't so the wiring could be a minefield if not positively lethal.

No.

 

The BSS is for 4 years and he can get one anytime regardless of the RCD. However it does not replace the RCD for a boat under 5 years. The license is transferable. Normally done by the broker notifying C&RT of the change of ownership. There is also a form that comes with the license to notify change of ownership. Only moorings are normally not transferable.

 

I would most certainly want to see a gas certificate issued by a Gassafe engineer with appropriate LPG AND boat tickets. This is nothing to do with RCD or BSS. A boatyard that has an appropriately qualified engineer can do this.

 

I would check a self-certified boat very carefully. Much better to have an independent surveyor prepare the documentation for you.

 

ETA: And also the "sparky" would have to know about boat electrics as well. Domestic electricians generally don't so the wiring could be a minefield if not positively lethal.

 

To be honest, I wouldn't waste the time or money going to look at this boat - too many unanswered question.

Edited November 14, 2013 by dor

[Keith M]

There are not many sparks that can on marine installation

There are many differences between a house and a marine installation

Was the sparks a competent person?

 

Just ask the question was he experience with marine installations

 

If not and you must think about have an independent survey on the electrical systems

 

keith

Edited November 14, 2013 by Keith M

[bottle]

being a qualified tradesman, along with the help of mates who were also "qualified sparkie & chippy" no idea who did the gas fittings

 

Qualified in what, qualified sparkie, that would be in boat wiring I take it, qualified chippy again in what part of chipping.

 

Sorry to throw in more doubts about this boat but ....

[Tony Brooks]

And the vendor is still avoiding the Annex (X - is it D Tim?) declaration of hull conformity. Without it I think it would be very difficult to get it RCD certified.

 

The BSS has absolutely NOTHING to do with RCD certification apart from the RCD certificate stands in for the first 4 year BSS certificate. It is far from unknown for an RCD certificated boat to fail it first BSS inspection.

 

He also seems oblivious to his legal position in putting the boat on the market in the EU or he is deliberately avoiding it.

 

Hampshire County Council have a lot of RCD advice on their website but you will need to do a search for it. Please look at it before travelling to view the boat.