Refitting costs

[OldPeculier]

Our plan is to buy an older boat with the idea of refitting it since we have yet to find anything we really like in out price range. £30-£35k

 

Assuming we can get something sound for around £20, are the following costs reasonable? My list covers everything I can think of but many items may already be on the project boat and could be re-used. Other things like batteries and exterior paint could be lived with for a year or two.

 

We saw this boat the other weekend and although not quite right, it is the sort of thing we are looking at.http://www.boatinland.co.uk/narrow-boat-traditional-stern-harboro-marine

 

Costs.

 

Blacking £400

Ropes/fenders £200

External paint £300

Floor 40sqm £1200

Kitchen cupboards £1500

Fridge £600

Hob/oven £700

Sink/taps £400

Shower £600

Toilet £600

Basin £150

Taps/shower £200

Tiles+adhesive £400

Light fittings x 12 £360

Pumps water+waste £200

Replace water pipes £200

Gas water heater £350

Batteries x 4 £500

0.4 kw solar+controller £800

Stove+hearth £1000

Partial re-wire £250

Wood+trims £500

Fixings+glues/sealers £300

Free standing chairs/table £1000

 

Total of £12710

 

Does this sound reasonable?

[bizzard]

Our plan is to buy an older boat with the idea of refitting it since we have yet to find anything we really like in out price range. £30-£35k

 

Assuming we can get something sound for around £20, are the following costs reasonable? My list covers everything I can think of but many items may already be on the project boat and could be re-used. Other things like batteries and exterior paint could be lived with for a year or two.

 

We saw this boat the other weekend and although not quite right, it is the sort of thing we are looking at.http://www.boatinland.co.uk/narrow-boat-traditional-stern-harboro-marine

 

Costs.

 

Blacking £400

Ropes/fenders £200

External paint £300

Floor 40sqm £1200

Kitchen cupboards £1500

Fridge £600

Hob/oven £700

Sink/taps £400

Shower £600

Toilet £600

Basin £150

Taps/shower £200

Tiles+adhesive £400

Light fittings x 12 £360

Pumps water+waste £200

Replace water pipes £200

Gas water heater £350

Batteries x 4 £500

0.4 kw solar+controller £800

Stove+hearth £1000

Partial re-wire £250

Wood+trims £500

Fixings+glues/sealers £300

Free standing chairs/table £1000

 

Total of £12710

 

Does this sound reasonable?

If it is a circa 1970's Harborough Marine boat be careful. Although a very good design. They steer and swim beautifully on minimum power, but has almost certainly a GRP top and almost certainly will have a 1/4'' base plate and 1/8'' or 3/16'' hull sides. Engine superb but again almost certainly aircooled so noisy and so can't heat a calorifier.

[RLWP]

It is definitely an air cooled Lister

 

I'm afraid I can't see how you worked out those prices. Blacking and paint seem a bit low, batteries a bit high, the rest will depend on the actual boat rather than a hypothetical one

 

How does this list help you in making your choice?

 

Richard

[alan_fincher]

If it is a circa 1970's Harborough Marine boat be careful. Although a very good design. They steer and swim beautifully on minimum power, but has almost certainly a GRP top and almost certainly will have a 1/4'' base plate and 1/8'' or 3/16'' hull sides. Engine superb but again almost certainly aircooled so noisy and so can't heat a calorifier.

Beg to differ, but almost certainly later than that.

 

No Harborough boat ever had 1/8" thick hull sides, or I doubt even 3/16". One of their claims to fame even in the early 1970s was the use of 1/4" throughout when others were built thinner.

 

It is almost certainly steel topped, not GRP - look at the picture taken through front doors.

 

That said it looks ridiculously overpriced to me, and would not in my view make any sense as a boat to put through a refit that the OP estimated as maybe £13K.

 

It also has those louvre windows popular on hire boats of an era, but seldom liked by those who end up with 30 or 40 year old versions of them!

[OldPeculier]

If it is a circa 1970's Harborough Marine boat be careful. Although a very good design. They steer and swim beautifully on minimum power, but has almost certainly a GRP top and almost certainly will have a 1/4'' base plate and 1/8'' or 3/16'' hull sides. Engine superb but again almost certainly aircooled so noisy and so can't heat a calorifier.

This boat was just an example. We rejected it on many issues like the windows and lack of headroom. It is all steel by the way which suprised me too.

[OldPeculier]

It is definitely an air cooled Lister

 

I'm afraid I can't see how you worked out those prices. Blacking and paint seem a bit low, batteries a bit high, the rest will depend on the actual boat rather than a hypothetical one

 

How does this list help you in making your choice?

 

Richard

 

It dosn't help with the choice of boat. There are so many out there, it is just a case of finding a sound one. What I am looking for is an estimate of refitting cost based on the worst case scenario where everything is knackered. I dont want to be saying to the good lady. 'you can have that £500 sink' then finding out I'd forgotten to allow for some bit of essential kit.

 

Blacking @ £600? This is the sort of thing i need to work out.

 

That said it looks ridiculously overpriced to me, and would not in my view make any sense as a boat to put through a refit that the OP estimated as maybe £13K.

 

It also has those louvre windows popular on hire boats of an era, but seldom liked by those who end up with 30 or 40 year old versions of them!

Have to agree. The windows were a big no for us. And the age did not reflect the price. There are many far better projects out there

[bizzard]

Beg to differ, but almost certainly later than that.

 

No Harborough boat ever had 1/8" thick hull sides, or I doubt even 3/16". One of their claims to fame even in the early 1970s was the use of 1/4" throughout when others were built thinner.

 

It is almost certainly steel topped, not GRP - look at the picture taken through front doors.

 

That said it looks ridiculously overpriced to me, and would not in my view make any sense as a boat to put through a refit that the OP estimated as maybe £13K.

 

It also has those louvre windows popular on hire boats of an era, but seldom liked by those who end up with 30 or 40 year old versions of them!

I'm sorry you're wrong. Some early H marine boats may well have had 1/4'' hull sides maybe the ones supplied to private owners, but my old 40' ex hire boat '' Patience''had 3/16'' up to the chine then 1/8'' up to and including the gunwale and 1/8'' weedbox !!, I know because I replated a good deal of the hull and had to fabricate and weld in a new 1/4'' plate weedbox, the old original being 1/8'' had rusted away like lace and almost sunk it. Its sister boat ''Twiglet'' a 45' H M boat which my friend owned that I've also worked on appeared to have similar thickness plating. Both of these boats had louvre windows. These were early 1970's boats. I'm not sure when H,M went in for thicker platework and steel tops. I think around 1978-79.

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Blacking to include dry docking and pressure washing. But rebuild the boat slowly. Cruise for a summer morning and work on the boat in the afternoon.

[alan_fincher]

I'm sorry you're wrong. Some early H marine boats may well have had 1/4'' hull sides maybe the ones supplied to private owners, but my old 40' ex hire boat '' Patience''had 3/16'' up to the chine then 1/8'' up to and including the gunwale and 1/8'' weedbox !!,

 

Conceded, and apologies......

 

I see looking at a 1973 review of a Harborough built hire boat that 1/4" bottom, but hull sides pre-formed from 3/16" plate is claimed. I stand corrected. No mention of any use of 1/8" in that one though.

[David Mack]

Our plan is to buy an older boat with the idea of refitting it since we have yet to find anything we really like in out price range. £30-£35k

 

Assuming we can get something sound for around £20, are the following costs reasonable? My list covers everything I can think of but many items may already be on the project boat and could be re-used. Other things like batteries and exterior paint could be lived with for a year or two.

 

We saw this boat the other weekend and although not quite right, it is the sort of thing we are looking at.http://www.boatinland.co.uk/narrow-boat-traditional-stern-harboro-marine

 

Costs.

 

Blacking £400

Ropes/fenders £200

External paint £300

Floor 40sqm £1200

Kitchen cupboards £1500

Fridge £600

Hob/oven £700

Sink/taps £400

Shower £600

Toilet £600

Basin £150

Taps/shower £200

Tiles+adhesive £400

Light fittings x 12 £360

Pumps water+waste £200

Replace water pipes £200

Gas water heater £350

Batteries x 4 £500

0.4 kw solar+controller £800

Stove+hearth £1000

Partial re-wire £250

Wood+trims £500

Fixings+glues/sealers £300

Free standing chairs/table £1000

 

Total of £12710

 

Does this sound reasonable?

If you are going to fit eveything listed then that amounts to an almost total refit. For about the same price as that Harborough boat you could buy a new sailaway shell with known hull thickness and new engine.

[bizzard]

Conceded, and apologies......

 

I see looking at a 1973 review of a Harborough built hire boat that 1/4" bottom, but hull sides pre-formed from 3/16" plate is claimed. I stand corrected. No mention of any use of 1/8" in that one though.

Accepted Alan thanks. Indeed you may even remember having seen Patience and Twiglet both of which were bought from folk on the Tring summit, Cowroast and Marsworth around 1991-92.

To be honest I don't think they were too fussy what they used when supplying hire companies when probably building down to a probably cheap negotiated price, when taking int account the then expected short hire life of a hire boat.

Building for the odd private customers might well have been much better spec'd.

Edited May 13, 2013 by bizzard

[OldPeculier]

Blacking to include dry docking and pressure washing. But rebuild the boat slowly. Cruise for a summer morning and work on the boat in the afternoon.

That is the idea. We want something we can use straight away but slowly change to suit us.

 

If you are going to fit eveything listed then that amounts to an almost total refit. For about the same price as that Harborough boat you could buy a new sailaway shell with known hull thickness and new engine.

It's an idea but I cannot find a lined sailaway for under £30k But I take your point. That would be the ideal thing to do.

Edited May 13, 2013 by OldPeculier

[David Mack]

It's an idea but I cannot find a lined sailaway for under £30k But I take your point. That would be the ideal thing to do.

 

57 ft Sailway Lined from Lymm Marina is £30,500.

[Mike Jordan]

When you have purchased your old boat, turned it into a shell, and then spent mega man hours and thousands of pounds on materials the completed result will be worth very little more than you paid for it.

In many instances the boat never gets finished because the owner begins to see the folly of the project before the work is completed.

An unlined sail-away is a much better proposition all round. Fitting out an unlined shell is actually easier than a lined one.

Don't buy and old boat with an old engine on the assumption that you can make money, it won't happen unless you find a gullible buyer.

I know this is not what you want to hear, but having spent years making a living from boat joinery Ive seen lots of people make this classic mistake, you can find a good boat for about your budget if you are patient and settle for something a little shorter than the 55 foot everyone seems to want these days.

Best of luck with the project.

Mike

[sooty]

I went down the exactly same route as yourself intending to refit an older boat, but ended up buying a 57 foot sailaway from lymm marina.

10/6/4 good value for money shell with which I am very pleased .

(sprayfoamed,stainless water tank,battened, extra gas lockers but unlined)

Brand spanking new for £23,500 and I SAILED IT AWAY !

Oh what fun bringing it home and camping on it!

I have fit it out to a good liveaboard spec (diesel central heating, inverter, washer /dryer loose furniture etc) for around £12,000

(kept a spreadsheet ....... sad !)

The man hours involved was 3 to 4 long days a week for 6 month (not including external paint job) before we moved on board .... and NO it isn't finished yet !.

My only regret is not digging a bit deeper into my pockets for a 'painted' sailaway .... it took a an awful lot of time and effort to paint it and made the mistake of leaving it a winter in only its primer.

[OldPeculier]

When you have purchased your old boat, turned it into a shell, and then spent mega man hours and thousands of pounds on materials the completed result will be worth very little more than you paid for it.

In many instances the boat never gets finished because the owner begins to see the folly of the project before the work is completed.

An unlined sail-away is a much better proposition all round. Fitting out an unlined shell is actually easier than a lined one.

Don't buy and old boat with an old engine on the assumption that you can make money, it won't happen unless you find a gullible buyer.

I know this is not what you want to hear, but having spent years making a living from boat joinery Ive seen lots of people make this classic mistake, you can find a good boat for about your budget if you are patient and settle for something a little shorter than the 55 foot everyone seems to want these days.

Best of luck with the project.

Mike

I think it is a well established fact that you will never add value to a boat by re-fitting it. I have owned quite a few over the years, (small crusers) and while all have left me in better shape than I got them, I only ever made small change from the sale. I think you pay for the shell and engine irespective of what is inside. Still, the losses are not as big as with the top end of the market where the depreciation must be heartbreaking.

 

The list of costs I have put together is just an estimate and I wanted to see if I have got it about right. I would hope not to have to do everything on the list but I need to have some idea of how much each element costs, as a guide. The example boat was a poor one but even that had; good paint, new fenders, a working fridge, new water pump, and a stove. That is £2500 off my list for a start! Another boat we saw recently had a new bathroom, but needed a re-paint.

 

I went down the exactly same route as yourself intending to refit an older boat, but ended up buying a 57 foot sailaway from lymm marina.

10/6/4 good value for money shell with which I am very pleased .

(sprayfoamed,stainless water tank,battened, extra gas lockers but unlined)

Brand spanking new for £23,500 and I SAILED IT AWAY !

Oh what fun bringing it home and camping on it!

I have fit it out to a good liveaboard spec (diesel central heating, inverter, washer /dryer loose furniture etc) for around £12,000

(kept a spreadsheet ....... sad !)

The man hours involved was 3 to 4 long days a week for 6 month (not including external paint job) before we moved on board .... and NO it isn't finished yet !.

My only regret is not digging a bit deeper into my pockets for a 'painted' sailaway .... it took a an awful lot of time and effort to paint it and made the mistake of leaving it a winter in only its primer.

It is tempting but I really dont think I could cope with that much work. I would love the peace of mind of a sailaway but I would have to be lined, wired and plumbed and that would mean borrowing money which I dont really want to do. It is very tempting tho!

[Tom and Bex]

If you are planning an almost total refit then I think you have vastly under estimated the amount needed for wood. Also don't forget interior paint/varnish, and soft furnishings/curtains etc. It's surprising how quickly it all adds up!

 

Tom

[OldPeculier]

If you are planning an almost total refit then I think you have vastly under estimated the amount needed for wood. Also don't forget interior paint/varnish, and soft furnishings/curtains etc. It's surprising how quickly it all adds up!

 

Tom

Good point. I will make a note of that. Thanks.

[smileypete]

I'd agree that older second hand boat + posh £££ fit out ≠ posh £££ boat. The age of the boat will likely drag down the value of the fit out, not the other way round.

 

A large part of the target market for a refitted boat may themselves believe they can do it too, and with somewhat optimistic ideas about time and budget, so why buy your ready refitted boat for what they perceive as an excessive price?

 

Maybe go the other way, find a boat with a reasonable fit out and scruffy but sound paint job, then repaint it nicely and tidy up the fit out. There's plenty of choice out there... what do you want out of it?

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited May 15, 2013 by smileypete

[lee b]

That is the idea. We want something we can use straight away but slowly change to suit us.

 

It's an idea but I cannot find a lined sailaway for under £30k But I take your point. That would be the ideal thing to do.

their are sail away's 35-45ft liverpool built boats''check marinas in your area as they produce a lot for different marinas, 30k with get you fully lined,first fix electrics to your choice,integral water tank, a canal line engine,blacked,primed,windows)port holes to your spec,mushroom vents,engine bildge,also one side hatch..at the marina i am getting mine from will cost you £30,000 aprox....i am in the process of buying a 57ft sail away,also they are spray foamed insulated and the inside timbers are treated,the marine ply is down and the ballest is in...i am buying the standard sail away,i'll do the wood lining and electrics myself...safe a few gggg's on labour BUT AND I MEAN BUT YOU WILL NEED TIME ON YOUR HANDS...,i am a builder''houses,barns etc by trade and have good hands on trades...i reckon it will take me 12 weeks working 7 days a week and i usually work most days from 8-30am untill silly O'clock pm !!!

[Grace and Favour]

Sailaway prices - Northwich boats

Edited May 17, 2013 by Grace & Favour

[Christianonthecut]

My brother is just completing a very similar project to your proposal. He purchased the 57ft boat for £20K and has spent another £15K fitting it out to his own very unique spec. He runs a VW campervan conversion company so managed to save a fair bit by getting parts at trade prices and of course he did all of the work himself.

 

The boat still needs paint and a few other little bits and it has been interesting watching the very steep learning curve he has gone through.

 

In hindsight he wishes now that he had bought a sailaway because the major problems he has encountered have all been rectifying shoddy workmanship and problems with an already aging, older hull. I think it's 13 years old or thereabouts but unfortunately it had managed to fall into less than 'experienced' hands.

 

My personal take on it is that it is most definitely a buyers market and there are some really nicely finished boats around from reputable builders for similar money. A lot less hassle and much more enjoyment of the waterways especially with the good weather nearly upon us. If you buy wisely you'll never lose anything.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Christianonthecut

[IainW]

If you are going to use 18 or 25mm ply for the flooring, you should be able to cut that cost down a lot, especially if you can find a recycling place that has some sheets in good condition that you can cut down in size a bit because it is usually the edges of ply that are battered.

[OldPeculier]

• Thank you for all your comments. There are some really valid points being made. I should clarify the situation by saying that this will be a live-aboard boat and as such we are willing to over spend on fittings simply because it will eventually be our home and we want it right for us. While I am tempted by the sailaway idea, I am still convinced that in the current market, a good used boat may be the way to go. The example I gave was not a good one and I regret mentioning it but something like this would be a far better projecthttp://www.narrowboatbrokers.com/boats-info.asp?id=87

Edited May 20, 2013 by OldPeculier

[Witchword]

Resurrecting an old thread to ask a similar question really. I did speak to a boat builder who said not to buy a sailaway hull because it won't be good quality and his yard wouldn't work on it- I suppose that would depend on the company building the hull? If I could get a decent new hull for 30K could I fit it out for 10-12K? How long might that take, and who would do the work- it won't be me, well, apart from a bit of paint and some shelves!?

Edited February 10, 2016 by Witchword