Roger Gunkel's Eberspacher Update-its long!

[Roger Gunkel]

Hi to all those who followed my trials and tribulations with my Eberspacher heating system, those who offered help, advice and support and those who were just interested. I promised to report my findings in detail and to let you all know the solution offered by Eberspacher. THIS IS A LONG UPDATE, SO APOLOGIES!!

 

As you will recall, the main problem manifested itself in the regular failing of the brand new Hydronics 10 which is connected to four radiators and a hot water tank and is fuelled from the boats diesel tank as per the manufacturers installation. The Boat is a 57ft widebeam Boston Sailaway additions plus, supplied by the New Boat Company. Myself and my partner live and work onboard, using the heating system all day every day, shutting it down at night from about midnight to 7am. This is partly to save costs but mainly the continuous ticking of the fuel pump, motor speeding up and slowing down and roar of the combustion chamber was breaking into our sleep. Basically the system operates during the winter for about 17 hours per day.

The system was coking up with this sort of use after about 6-8 weeks resulting in total failure. The basic cause of this failure was due to the nature of the fuel, red diesel, being below the required cetane rating/quality required and recommended by Eberspacher to the installers. Naturally this was a completely unexpected state of affairs to myself and others, as red diesel is the only readily available fuel on the waterway system. This was reinforced by Eberspacher’s promotion of the unit as ‘Central heating for boats’, and their customers, the boat builders, plumbing the fuel line into the red diesel tank.

The initial failures of the system were repaired by engineers from NBC at no cost to myself and discussions took place with myself and Eberspacher regarding fuel quality and availabilty. At times these were quite heated (Excuse the unintentional pun). After more failures and repairs by an Eberspacher appointed independent company, I was told by the engineers that the system would continue to fail if it stayed as it was.

It did indeed fail after a further few weeks and Eberspecher proposed that suggestions made by their independent engineers should be put in place. Here they are:-

 

PROBLEM & SOLUTION

1) The plumbing installation supplied by NBC was not connected in accordance with the diagrams supplied with the boat’s manual. The water was able to loop back to the boiler without fully heating the radiators before telling the heat sensors to reduce the flow. There was also no valve to regulate the flow of water to the calorifier, so once the tank was up to temperature, being nearest to the boiler the sensor would again reduce the boiler output. The result was that the boat was not getting the heat that the system should produce. This was not a problem in itself as the onboard temperature was ok, but the 10kw output potential of the boiler was not required making the burner run at a much lower output. On the higher cetane road or white diesel for which the system was designed, the lower output burn temperature was sufficient to burn off any carbon build up, but as red diesel produces lower temperatures, the unit was quickly building up heavy deposits at the frequent tickover speeds.

2) The engineers corrected the plumbing problems, then replaced the Hydronic 10 with a new Hydronic 5. The lower 5kw output requires the unit to run at a higher level all the time to supply the heat output necessary and therefore does not drop into the carbon producing tickover speed range. That is the perfectly logical theory and so far, after a couple of months of very cold weather and long running, there have been absolutely no signs of any further problems developing.

 

I must say that my anger at the lack of early acceptance of my problems and points by Eberspacher has now been replaced by my respect that this large and well established company has acknowledged a problem in some areas of the marine industry. They have found a compromise solution that appears to work in my case and have carried out this work without any charge to myself in view of it being a problem from new. For this I am grateful to them and particularly to Steve Turner.

 

HOW DO I FEEL ABOUT HEATING AND LIVING ABOARD NOW?

 

Firstly I feel that although my problem has been with Eberspecher & NBC, what I have learned 16 months down the line is that the red diesel problem is fairly common in most makes of diesel heaters and not addressed by many boat builders. In boats with only occasional or weekend use, the hours to a carbon build up would probably bring the unit into annual service time, but permanent live aboard hours are a different matter. I am no longer convinced that this form of heating is an economical consideration.

 

HOW MUCH DOES IT COST?

My installation of boiler, 4 radiators, tank and calorifier added about £2500 to the cost of the boat. By domestic house standards, this is a lot of money.

Over the last 8 weeks, taking off the engine running hours, we have averaged a steady 7 litres of diesel per day for 17 hours per day running. I have looked back over the last 14 months of diesel use with the Hydronic 10 and the results have been identical. I would expect this as heat output and fuel consumption must be similar. These results show an average of just over 0.4 litres per hour, which at 50p per litre equates to 20p per hour. For me that means £24 per week for 4 radiators and hot water, but no heat at all overnight. For 24 hour running, I would be looking at £33.60 per week at current prices. If I include an annual service and parts, the costs increase to over £40 per week. From my communications with other live aboards, this would appear to be similar to their own findings with similar types of heating systems and useage. This seems to be very expensive compared to a small house and if we consider that we will probably all be paying for white diesel next year, these figures will double.

 

WHAT AM I DOING NOW?

A few weeks ago I purchased a brand new Evergreen coal and log stove, together with everything to fit it, flue, chimney, collar, fire cement etc. The whole lot cost me £380. I have never attempted to fit any sort of fire or stove before, so I took advice, read a bit, took the bull by the horns and have had it running for 3 weeks now. If I could roll the clock back, I would have saved myself over £2000 and had it right from the start. I runs for 24 hours a day, and burns 2.5 bags of Phurnacite a week (25Kg bags) Phurnacite is not the cheapest of coals but it is highly efficient. Each bag costs me £6.75 giving a weekly cost of less than £17 for 24 hour heating. This is almost exactly half the hourly cost of my diesel system. Ah! You say what about the hot water? Well we run the Eberspacher for a maximum of 2 hours, sometimes less, for water only. That’s usually 10 hours per week or £2. In addition the kettle can sit on the stove giving constant hot water for no extra cost at all, cutting gas use and saving part of the £2 for diesel. In our case the diesel heated water is used for our bath and washing machine.

Our wide beam has an open side corridor and we have found that even in sub zero outside air, the warmth from the stove reaches our end bedroom, which we don’t like too warm.We could increas this flow if we wanted with an ecofan. Previously, leaving the diesel heat off over night, we were freezing in the morning, running with condensation and everything was cold to the touch for several hours after heat on. Even if we left it on all night we were plagued with condensation. Because of the airflow in and out of the boat via the stove, we now find condensation problems gone, a heat that we have never experienced before in our lounge and kitchen and an overall warmth throughout. Claire dries the washing on an airer by the stove without condensing on the windows which we had using the radiators. We also burn logs which we have a ready supply of, to cut the costs even further and you can’t possibly beat the glow and feel of a real fire, especially when you are roasting chestnuts on it! Best of all – NO NOISE!!

Downsides? Raking it out and topping it up 3 times a day, storing coal and logs. Strangely, we actually enjoy looking after the fire and storage is not a problem for us on the wide beam, it goes on the roof.

 

THAT’S IT! The full report! Don’t know if anyone read to the end, love to hear comments, thanks again to Eberspacher and NBC for sorting out the problems eventually. I now hopefully have a very expensive but reliable back up system!

 

Happy heating,

Roger & Claire

[charles123]

Hi to all those who followed my trials and tribulations with my Eberspacher heating system, those who offered help, advice and support and those who were just interested. I promised to report my findings in detail and to let you all know the solution offered by Eberspacher. THIS IS A LONG UPDATE, SO APOLOGIES!!

 

As you will recall, the main problem manifested itself in the regular failing of the brand new Hydronics 10 which is connected to four radiators and a hot water tank and is fuelled from the boats diesel tank as per the manufacturers installation. The Boat is a 57ft widebeam Boston Sailaway additions plus, supplied by the New Boat Company. Myself and my partner live and work onboard, using the heating system all day every day, shutting it down at night from about midnight to 7am. This is partly to save costs but mainly the continuous ticking of the fuel pump, motor speeding up and slowing down and roar of the combustion chamber was breaking into our sleep. Basically the system operates during the winter for about 17 hours per day.

The system was coking up with this sort of use after about 6-8 weeks resulting in total failure. The basic cause of this failure was due to the nature of the fuel, red diesel, being below the required cetane rating/quality required and recommended by Eberspacher to the installers. Naturally this was a completely unexpected state of affairs to myself and others, as red diesel is the only readily available fuel on the waterway system. This was reinforced by Eberspacher’s promotion of the unit as ‘Central heating for boats’, and their customers, the boat builders, plumbing the fuel line into the red diesel tank.

The initial failures of the system were repaired by engineers from NBC at no cost to myself and discussions took place with myself and Eberspacher regarding fuel quality and availabilty. At times these were quite heated (Excuse the unintentional pun). After more failures and repairs by an Eberspacher appointed independent company, I was told by the engineers that the system would continue to fail if it stayed as it was.

It did indeed fail after a further few weeks and Eberspecher proposed that suggestions made by their independent engineers should be put in place. Here they are:-

 

PROBLEM & SOLUTION

1) The plumbing installation supplied by NBC was not connected in accordance with the diagrams supplied with the boat’s manual. The water was able to loop back to the boiler without fully heating the radiators before telling the heat sensors to reduce the flow. There was also no valve to regulate the flow of water to the calorifier, so once the tank was up to temperature, being nearest to the boiler the sensor would again reduce the boiler output. The result was that the boat was not getting the heat that the system should produce. This was not a problem in itself as the onboard temperature was ok, but the 10kw output potential of the boiler was not required making the burner run at a much lower output. On the higher cetane road or white diesel for which the system was designed, the lower output burn temperature was sufficient to burn off any carbon build up, but as red diesel produces lower temperatures, the unit was quickly building up heavy deposits at the frequent tickover speeds.

2) The engineers corrected the plumbing problems, then replaced the Hydronic 10 with a new Hydronic 5. The lower 5kw output requires the unit to run at a higher level all the time to supply the heat output necessary and therefore does not drop into the carbon producing tickover speed range. That is the perfectly logical theory and so far, after a couple of months of very cold weather and long running, there have been absolutely no signs of any further problems developing.

 

I must say that my anger at the lack of early acceptance of my problems and points by Eberspacher has now been replaced by my respect that this large and well established company has acknowledged a problem in some areas of the marine industry. They have found a compromise solution that appears to work in my case and have carried out this work without any charge to myself in view of it being a problem from new. For this I am grateful to them and particularly to Steve Turner.

 

HOW DO I FEEL ABOUT HEATING AND LIVING ABOARD NOW?

 

Firstly I feel that although my problem has been with Eberspecher & NBC, what I have learned 16 months down the line is that the red diesel problem is fairly common in most makes of diesel heaters and not addressed by many boat builders. In boats with only occasional or weekend use, the hours to a carbon build up would probably bring the unit into annual service time, but permanent live aboard hours are a different matter. I am no longer convinced that this form of heating is an economical consideration.

 

HOW MUCH DOES IT COST?

My installation of boiler, 4 radiators, tank and calorifier added about £2500 to the cost of the boat. By domestic house standards, this is a lot of money.

Over the last 8 weeks, taking off the engine running hours, we have averaged a steady 7 litres of diesel per day for 17 hours per day running. I have looked back over the last 14 months of diesel use with the Hydronic 10 and the results have been identical. I would expect this as heat output and fuel consumption must be similar. These results show an average of just over 0.4 litres per hour, which at 50p per litre equates to 20p per hour. For me that means £24 per week for 4 radiators and hot water, but no heat at all overnight. For 24 hour running, I would be looking at £33.60 per week at current prices. If I include an annual service and parts, the costs increase to over £40 per week. From my communications with other live aboards, this would appear to be similar to their own findings with similar types of heating systems and useage. This seems to be very expensive compared to a small house and if we consider that we will probably all be paying for white diesel next year, these figures will double.

 

WHAT AM I DOING NOW?

A few weeks ago I purchased a brand new Evergreen coal and log stove, together with everything to fit it, flue, chimney, collar, fire cement etc. The whole lot cost me £380. I have never attempted to fit any sort of fire or stove before, so I took advice, read a bit, took the bull by the horns and have had it running for 3 weeks now. If I could roll the clock back, I would have saved myself over £2000 and had it right from the start. I runs for 24 hours a day, and burns 2.5 bags of Phurnacite a week (25Kg bags) Phurnacite is not the cheapest of coals but it is highly efficient. Each bag costs me £6.75 giving a weekly cost of less than £17 for 24 hour heating. This is almost exactly half the hourly cost of my diesel system. Ah! You say what about the hot water? Well we run the Eberspacher for a maximum of 2 hours, sometimes less, for water only. That’s usually 10 hours per week or £2. In addition the kettle can sit on the stove giving constant hot water for no extra cost at all, cutting gas use and saving part of the £2 for diesel. In our case the diesel heated water is used for our bath and washing machine.

Our wide beam has an open side corridor and we have found that even in sub zero outside air, the warmth from the stove reaches our end bedroom, which we don’t like too warm.We could increas this flow if we wanted with an ecofan. Previously, leaving the diesel heat off over night, we were freezing in the morning, running with condensation and everything was cold to the touch for several hours after heat on. Even if we left it on all night we were plagued with condensation. Because of the airflow in and out of the boat via the stove, we now find condensation problems gone, a heat that we have never experienced before in our lounge and kitchen and an overall warmth throughout. Claire dries the washing on an airer by the stove without condensing on the windows which we had using the radiators. We also burn logs which we have a ready supply of, to cut the costs even further and you can’t possibly beat the glow and feel of a real fire, especially when you are roasting chestnuts on it! Best of all – NO NOISE!!

Downsides? Raking it out and topping it up 3 times a day, storing coal and logs. Strangely, we actually enjoy looking after the fire and storage is not a problem for us on the wide beam, it goes on the roof.

 

THAT’S IT! The full report! Don’t know if anyone read to the end, love to hear comments, thanks again to Eberspacher and NBC for sorting out the problems eventually. I now hopefully have a very expensive but reliable back up system!

 

Happy heating,

Roger & Claire

 

Slightly unrelated story, but on a previous boat I had an eberspacher and had endless problems with it failing, it was replaced once and went for repair twice. One of the most annoying things as you note was the constant fuel pump ticking and I never cured that problem, inspite of placing it on flexible mounts and enclosing it in sound reducing foam. Equally the exhaust was always noisy inspite of an in line silencer, I never got round to fitting a bigger silencer. We had it on a timer to come on in the morning in winter, needless to say when that started up you did not need an alarm clock. On my current boat I have Mikuni which is no trouble and vastly quieter by comparison

 

Charles

[anhar]

Hello Roger

 

Thanks for posting your experiences here. Very useful for people like me in the process of finding a boat. Glad that you appear to have sorted out the problem with your Eber in the end, even though you did find an alternative heat source more acceptable to you. Your difficulties and similar problems reported by other Eber users have put me off these things for life. I've yet to get my boat but I definitely won't be using Eber for central heating if I can avoid it.

 

I don't like the hassles and work with solid fuel as the sole heat source, though I don't mind having a stove for secondary occasional use. My preferred option for central heating/hot water is Alde gas but if I have a diesel fuelled system Webasto would be my choice. No doubt both of these, as you suggest, would be expensive to run in cold weather but as an incorrigible sybarite I'm more interested in an easy comfortable life than saving money.

 

Incidentally I have found that there is little point in comparing the costs of heating and hot watering a boat with a house. The former is staggeringly more expensive, and when you consider the relatively minuscule volume of air being heated it is even more an eye-wateringly shocking comparison. You could heat a large four bedroom house for the same money as a tiny narrowboat but one just has to accept that as part of the highly expensive hobby of canalling.

 

regards

Steve

Edited January 27, 2006 by anhar

[alan_fincher]

Thanks Roger, most illuminating.

 

We are not liveaboards, and bought a boat that had no central heating - something I have not been sure of the wisdom of, as it would not be an easy retrofit.

 

We do however have a small multifuel stove, (Villager Heron), and I'm amazed at how well it heats things, particularly as it is at the exteme front. An Ecofan genuinely seems to help move it along the boat - still hard to believe, but it does...)

 

To be honest, the problem is often keeping it checked back to the point where the front of the boat isn't sweltering, so I'm always a little surprised when I see the posts about much larger stoves not getting things hot.

 

I've been up working on the boat whilst there's ice around the hull outside, and although a bit of a pain to have to clean out the last fire, and light up again, I accept it as part of one of the rituals of life on board.

 

Even throttled back, our little stove will quite quickly bring a kettle to the boil, and I'm sure you could cook on one a bit larger. A shame our back boiler is not connected to anything - a possible future imrovement ?

 

I'm surprised by the level of cost of running heating on red diesel, but those are clearly the facts. I assume, but don't know that LPG based central heating will cost even more to run.

 

Increasingly it sounds to me that solid fuels have many adavantages - particularly if you can come by wood at no cost, or minimal cost, (ssomething I need to investigate, as we are largely burning Taybrite at the moment).

[Noah]

Roger and Claire

 

Yes, I read your report to the end! Good of you to share your experiences and conclusions and of particular interest to myself as I am soon to install a replacement heater to replace my dead Mikuni. In my case I have chosen a Webasto, mainly because I have read less negative reviews of these in comaparison to Eber and Mikuni. My own lengthy report will come in due time!

 

I fully agree with your findings that this type of heater is not designed for continuous use as a central heating boiler. They are all derived from parking (cab) heaters for road and industrial vehicles where they are in use for far fewer hours each day. For this reason, as you and others have discovered to your cost, they are clearly unsuitable for liveaboard use. If I were fitting-out a boat as a liveaboard I would opt for solid fuel with gravity-fed radiators and calorifier. I've seen this system working perfectly on several liveaboard narrowboats but retrofitting on my own boat would mean major upheaval so I am to replace the existing heater. I don't live on my boat but spend every weekend, and many weeks aboard. I flick a switch as soon as I arrive on board and within 20mins I have hot rads and water. After an hour I switch off the central heating as the solid fuel stove (no back-boiler) is supplying sufficient heat. I cruise often so calorifier heating is provided also by the engine. This all means that the diesel heater is not over-used and this should therefore minimise servicing and problems. In other words, it is used just as a convenience heater, which is all they are suitable for. The faults on my old Mikuni heater I blame partly on poor maintenance and possible ingress of moisture to the control unit PCB, and partly on over-use by previous owners. It is also likely that the unit (the 7kW version) was too large for my 46ft boat and was working at carbon-producing low-output as soon as the water was hot. I have bought a 4kW Webasto heater, the smalest available.

 

Despite the negative reviews, I have spoken to boaters who have run Ebers and Mikunis for years without any more than an bi-annual service. One friend with an Eber adds an occasional gallon of white diesel to his tank and has had no problems for 4 years. Does this up the cetane percentage of the fuel and increase burn temperature, resulting in a cleaner combustion chamber?

 

I've no doubt that there will be more replies on this much-debated topic and some will ask why do people bother fitting these problematic heaters. In the case of new boat builds I suspect it's just down to marketing - they do appear good in a brochure, central heating off your engine diesel. I believe that the New Boat Company are now installing Webastos (possibly in the hope that there will be less come-backs).

 

Noah

[anhar]

... I believe that the New Boat Company are now installing Webastos (possibly in the hope that there will be less come-backs).

 

Noah

Hello Noah

 

I've seen several NBC boats and having talked to them I confirm that they now fit Webastos instead of the Ebers they fitted earlier. The reason given to me was that Ebers require a call-out if they fail to light three times or whatever, in order to re-set the electronics. This is not the case with Webastos.

 

However I came to a similar conclusion to yourself when they told me this, believing that although the above is one reason, it probably had more to do with the frequent problems I guess they experienced with the Eber equipped boats they sold in the past.

 

regards

Steve

Edited January 28, 2006 by anhar

[NB.BELLE]

Hi Roger & Claire,

 

An interesting and well put over analysis.

 

Unfortunately, the whole issue as you have described it typifies either a lack of understanding and applications engineering expertise on the part of product manufacturer and/or the boat builder or an unwillingness to collaborate in such a way that the end user gets what they were given to believe they would get.

 

As for our expectations. I propose that, having forked out £2.5k or thereabouts, it is wholly reasonable for us boaters to expect that our boat central heating system will fire-up every time on command at any time of the day and night and provide us with the requisite amount of heat energy for our air space and hot water system. We keep up our side of the deal by ensuring we have put the right fuel in and we have carried out the scheduled maintenance tasks and we operate the system in accordance with the instructions provided. We accept that, now and again, things do fail and they do wear out and they need replacing. Having said that, we should not have to shift heaven and earth to get things fixed and the vast majority of ‘fixes’ should be very simple and preferably carried out on a ‘plug and play’ basis and without having to dismantle the whole engine bay to get at the bit that needs fixing and so on. Furthermore, we should not have to fork out the financial equivalent of a new installation to get repairs done. Absolute silence during operation would be a ‘nice to have’, but sleep depravation is a definite no-no.

 

We take reasonable steps to compare performances between the various manufacturers’ products in terms of running costs and reliability. We heed the experiences and take into account the recommendations of others and we read all the product sales literature. We place our trust in the boat builder, who should know enough about the products they are dealing with on our behalf to ensure that the installation will come up to our expectations. Are we being unreasonable; no, of course we are not. So, why is it that many product manufacturers and suppliers and boat builders find it so difficult to meet our requirements, yet still get away with it, or cause us an inordinate amount of grief?

 

I agree with you, red diesel is nothing new in the marine environment. A number of diesel-fired heating system products have indeed been promoted for use in this environment for a long time, so their performance in this respect should have been well and truly sorted out by now. The criteria that must be respected by those responsible for the installation of the product should also be well defined. If my experience is anything to go by, then many of the UK boat builders probably know less than you do (and now us) about the products they are installing on our behalf!

 

As it is, you have learned another good lesson about product performance. You have elected to also make use of a separate solid fuel burner to get the operating costs down significantly. A positive outcome, although I guess that you could have done without the grief you have encountered along the way!

 

We, like one of your other readers, are (well, for the moment anyway) keen on the ‘press the button and we have heat approach’ and we acknowledge that we will probably have higher operating costs because of this. As it happens, we are having an Eberspächer Hydronic 5 installed in our 65 footer. Judging by your experiences and taking into account that our boat builder has (as far as we are aware) successfully installed quite a few of these particular units, we will stick with our choice. We are also having a Lockgate Refleks fitted in the saloon, this being another diesel burner, but without the back boiler. This is also rated at about 5kW.

 

I would be interested to learn who or what it was that brought about the fitting of the Hydronic 10 in the first place? It will also be interesting to learn in the fullness of time how the Webasto’s perform. I suppose that a success in this respect really depends on whether the problems you encountered are endemic for all heaters of this type, regardless of the manufacturer. It would be a shame if Eberspächer has lost out moreover because of a lack of understanding on the part of a boat builder.

 

Cheers, Chris.

[blackrose]

I also have an erbaspacher hydronic 10DW from Liverpool boats/NBC but only use it as a back up to my solid fuel stove. I haven't had any problems yet and find my rads get hot enough. I understand the rationale for changing yours to a hydronics 5 but how fast is it supposed to be going to be running efficienly and how can you tell?

[Roger Gunkel]

I also have an erbaspacher hydronic 10DW from Liverpool boats/NBC but only use it as a back up to my solid fuel stove. I haven't had any problems yet and find my rads get hot enough. I understand the rationale for changing yours to a hydronics 5 but how fast is it supposed to be going to be running efficienly and how can you tell?

 

Hi Blackrose,

 

I was surprised to see my long running saga had re-appeared in the forum and apologies to those who are bored. I am pleased that so much interest was shown by so many people, particularly as the saga is not over yet.

 

The rationale for changing to the Hydronic 5, as you say apears logical, however things are never as they seem unfortunateley. According to my information at the time, the '5' would need to run at a higher output speed to maintain the required heat levels, in addition my understanding from the engineers was that unlike the '10' it would not drop into idle mode when enough heat was produced, but would simply shut down until the sensor told it to increase output again.

 

As you will know from my report dated 27th Jan 06, the unit was running fine at that point. I installed my solid fuel stove and from the end of January used it exclusively for boat heating. The Eber was used to heat the tank water for sometimes 1 or 2 hours per day, together with one bedroom radiator left on at the same time. After about 2 months of this, we noted that the water never seemed to be as hot as we would have expected and opened up the tank gate valve some more, to allow more flow through the calorifier. This had little or no effect so in April we concluded that the radiator must be dissipating too much heat and closed it off.

On may 3rd whilst running the heater for an hour on the timer it packed up. As we were getting married on the following day, we waited a week until we came back from honeymoon to tell NBC. About a week after that, Eberspacher sent the same 2 independent engineers to look at the system. The checked the electronic log on the chip and told me that it had run for 1300 hours from new. That tied in with my fuel records which showed about 1000 hours of fuel between November 05 and January 06 with the remaining 300 hours of fuel from January to May, after the solid fuel stove was fitted.

 

The engineers insisted that I agreed to pay for a service before proceeding further. I totally understood their position as they had to be sure that someone would pay. After some further discussion I decided that I was not prepared to pay because the written paperwork quite clearly states suggested service intervals of 2000 hours, but in this instance the unit had completely failed at 1300 hours for which I required satisfactory answers.

 

Basically my position has reverted to my original one, which is that I believe these units do not run effectively or efficiently on available marine diesel under full time liveaboard conditions. I am currently awaiting clear instructions in writing as to how this may be achieved to fulfill the purpose for which it was purchased. Meanwhile I am producing hot water from the kettle and running the engine for an hour each day. Thats another 50 hours on my engine so far, an expensive way of heating water.

 

There are a number of other problems connected to this issue that I am very unhappy about, but I am not prepared to discuss these publicly at present, on advice that I have taken.

 

I am prepared to discuss privately with those that are interested, also those who have been or are in a similar position, may wish to post on this forum or contact me directly.

 

Roger

[dor]

Basically my position has reverted to my original one, which is that I believe these units do not run effectively or efficiently on available marine diesel

 

Eberspacher, Mikuni, Webasto. I keep hearing the same thing. As I understand it, these heaters were designed for cab heating in trucks and need nice clean DERV to run properly.

 

So why are so many fitted to boats where they seem to cause problems?

[Roger Gunkel]

Eberspacher, Mikuni, Webasto. I keep hearing the same thing. As I understand it, these heaters were designed for cab heating in trucks and need nice clean DERV to run properly.

 

So why are so many fitted to boats where they seem to cause problems?

 

It seems to me that everybody has heard the same thing, apart from those people new to boating who are blissfully still buying boats with them fitted. Apart from my own self interest, this is why I am constantly banging the gong hoping that manufacturers will address the problem.

 

Because hundreds of thousands have been fitted to lorries for years, running efficiently on DERV, they have caught the eye of boat builders who have found them space saving, easy to fit and highly efficient - until they break down. As most boat owners don't live permanently aboard, the 2000 hours servicing time at say 10 hours per week, would take 4 years to reach. As most owners probably get them serviced every 12-24 months, the carbon deposit problem may never reach critical as 12-24 months may only represent a few hundred hours. The problem manifests itself to people like myself who may have to use heat 20 hours per day through the winter months. Under those circumstances, my 1300 hours to failure, could well come in 65 days of continuous daily use!! As more people are starting to live aboard permanently, these failures are becoming much more common. I can't imagine any circumstances where these owners would be prepared to pay around £300 every couple of months for a full service. It would be cheaper to buy a new unit every year! If I had been told and understood these weeknesses when I was purchasing the boat, I would never have even considered following that route.

 

Roger

[dor]

I'll stick to my Alde and Squirrel! Very reliable.

[anhar]

It seems to me that everybody has heard the same thing, apart from those people new to boating who are blissfully still buying boats with them fitted. Apart from my own self interest, this is why I am constantly banging the gong hoping that manufacturers will address the problem...Roger

Well I listened Roger, to you and many other sources, and have avoided getting an Eberspacher on the new boat I have on order. I've opted for a Hurricane, expensive, but seems to be the best amongst the diesel models. My second choices would have been a Webasto or an Alde gas. I researched this a lot because I want to be comfortably warm on my boat with the minimum of hassle.

 

One reason some people continue to have Ebers is that they have no choice. Having decided on a supplier which they like, then if that firm's chosen system is Eber, they won't usually offer any alternatives particularly on the standardised production boats. The other reason is as you say, a lot of people don't do extensive research on their new boat, don't read forums like this, and are unaware. It is here that I discovered the whole Eber problem. As far as I know the mags don't feature it and I owe a debt of gratitude to readers like yourself and many others here for this, and a whole host of other matters about which as a beginner I was ignorant. But I learn quick and without this, I am pretty certain I would not have been able to make the informed choices I have.

 

regards

Steve

[Mick and Pauline]

Hi Roger,

 

Your comments about the use of Red Diesel in these heaters could be correct because there is a sulphur content differance between Derv and Red Diesel.

 

The Derv fuel is blended for road use and is similar to petrol in that the permitted sulphur content is very low in parts per million. The density of Derv is about 0.82 so can contain a large proportion of Kerosene when blended, thus making it lighter and sweeter than Red Diesel.

 

The Red Diesel is blended for farming, industrial, shipping use and the sulphur content is higher than Derv. The density of Red Diesel is 0.86 and the blend contains a lot less Kerosene thus making it a lot heavier and sourer than Derv.

 

So for a straight engine use the extra sulphur in Red Diesel is not a problem, only need to considered it use when running the engine in confined spaces ie deep locks or canal tunnels.

 

Using Red Diesel for burning in a heating situation with the higher sulphur spec will give a carbon deposit build up faster than Derv.

 

The use of two tanks is the only way to solve this problem, one for the engine (Red Diesel) and the other for the heating unit (Kerosene or Central Heating fuel). To use Derv for the heating unit would be very expensive because of the amount of road tax added to this fuel.

 

M & P.

[anhar]

...The use of two tanks is the only way to solve this problem, one for the engine (Red Diesel) and the other for the heating unit (Kerosene or Central Heating fuel). To use Derv for the heating unit would be very expensive because of the amount of road tax added to this fuel.M & P.

Hello Mick

 

But where would one obtain ch fuel or kerosene or even derv on the canals if crusing? As far as I know it is hardly available at all canalside, whereas normal red diesel for the engine is always around. Thus the two tanks idea is not really practical. It makes more sense to find a system that does run properly on red diesel or abandon diesel and go for Alde gas. The latter however would I suspect prove expensive to run if used a lot, say for extended winter use.

 

regards

Steve

[Gary Peacock]

There might be just such a system soon, so watch this space. Plans are being made.

[Callum]

Do the Hurricane heaters run OK on red diesel? Their promotional blurb refers to "all grades of fuel"(sic).

 

Would adding any of the automotive diesel additives, e.g. Redex, to red diesel make any difference to the performance of Webastikunaspacher heaters do you think?

[Gary Peacock]

Do the Hurricane heaters run OK on red diesel? Their promotional blurb refers to "all grades of fuel"(sic).

 

Would adding any of the automotive diesel additives, e.g. Redex, to red diesel make any difference to the performance of Webastikunaspacher heaters do you think?

 

Seem OK on red so far.

[anhar]

Do the Hurricane heaters run OK on red diesel? Their promotional blurb refers to "all grades of fuel"(sic).

 

Would adding any of the automotive diesel additives, e.g. Redex, to red diesel make any difference to the performance of Webastikunaspacher heaters do you think?

Hurricane as far as I can establish have no problem with red diesel. Moreover they are designed to be easy to self service, unlike Eber. Personally, I don't know whether additives would help Ebers or other brands though I have heard it claimed that certain ones might.

 

regards

Steve

[Mick and Pauline]

Hello Mick

 

But where would one obtain ch fuel or kerosene or even derv on the canals if crusing? As far as I know it is hardly available at all canalside, whereas normal red diesel for the engine is always around. Thus the two tanks idea is not really practical. It makes more sense to find a system that does run properly on red diesel or abandon diesel and go for Alde gas. The latter however would I suspect prove expensive to run if used a lot, say for extended winter use.

 

regards

Steve

 

Hi Steve,

 

Yes that right, to obtain the correct fuel for the diesel heating on the canal would be difficult to obtain, the Central Heating fuel is supplied normally by small road tanker. Obtain Kero or Paraffin is a little easier in small amounts (cans) but it still is off the canal. Derv is available at all roadside garages and again would require small amounts (cans).

 

Therefore the compromise the diesel fired user is placed in, is use Red Diesel which is available at canal side or find and transport small amounts of the cleaner fuels.

 

So if the system was designed to use a Derv type fuel, it is not practical for canal boat use because of it's poor availability.

 

M & P.

 

 

 

Do the Hurricane heaters run OK on red diesel? Their promotional blurb refers to "all grades of fuel"(sic).

 

Would adding any of the automotive diesel additives, e.g. Redex, to red diesel make any difference to the performance of Webastikunaspacher heaters do you think?

 

Hi Callum,

I don't think adding anything to Red Diesel will make a difference because the sulphur content is still there whatever you add. It's the sulphur when burned that gives the carbon build up.

 

M & P.

 

PS Hi Gary can we have a chat next week about whatch this space.????

[GUMPY]

Eberspacher, Mikuni, Webasto. I keep hearing the same thing. As I understand it, these heaters were designed for cab heating in trucks and need nice clean DERV to run properly.

 

I wish people would get their facts right and not generlise......

Mikuni MX40 will run on red diesel very well.

I have seen / heard of some failures but they have ALL been down to poor instalation or misuse.

Problems I have seen

 

Running with a thermostat that shuts the unit down when the room reaches temperature and then before the unit has finished its purge cycle the thermostat demands more heat.

None of these systems should be fitted with a room thermostat the temp of the room should be controlled with thermoststic radiator valves.

 

Running with certain types of battery charger connected, when the unit fires up the battery charger spikes the voltage up and kills the glow plug ( this happened to me couldnt see the spike without a recording scope but it was enough to do the damage) I now no longer have the charger on when the Mikuni is on.

 

Having the unit to high or low in relation to the fuel tank (can cause flooding when unit switched off)

 

To use any of thses units you should try and arrange matters ( rad size, heater size ) so that in use the unit never cycles on and off, there should always be enough heat leak ( mines the calorifier and a rad in the bathroom ) to keep the unit running at minimum heat.

 

I will admit that it is not my primary heat source in the winter but it has been on for at least 3 hours every day for the past 4 years just to heat the water, come spring and autumn it is used a lot a lot more as it becomes the primary souce of heating ( CBA to light the diesel stoves) in that time apart from the battery charger incident I have had it serviced once and replaced 2 glow plugs both of which were due to bacteria in the fuel. I do use Soltron in all my fuel to kill diesel bug the 2 times I didnt cost me a plug.

 

So you see Mikuni if properly installed do work on red diesel.

 

J

 

J

[Roger Gunkel]

Lots of interesting information coming in and I'm very pleased to see some technical support, pacticularly Mick and Pauline about the Sulphur content.

 

I'll be very interested to 'watch this space' Gary, maybe at last the problems with red diesel are finally being understood and addressed.

 

I'm sure that there are diesel units out there that will run fine on red and my experience is exclusively based on the Eberspacher Hydronic 10 & 5. I would make no personal judgements regarding other makes and models and my advice would be to get clear guidelines in writing from manufacturers regarding the use of red diesel for heavy use on any unit that a buyer may be considering.

 

I am also sure that problems for some users have been exasberated by incorrect use or installation, however when systems are installed by professional builders, run in accordance with the instructions and still fail, I would find that unacceptable, particularly on the scale that it seems to have been happening. If our diesel engines failed with such regularity would there be the same acceptance? Idoubt it!

 

None of us are experts on every piece of equipment when we come into boating, so it is reasonable to trust those that manufacture and/or and fit these expensive units to supply us with equipment fit for the purpose.

 

Just as an add on, my Eberspacher paperwork reccommends 2000 hour service intervals. The engineers told me that my CPU had registered 1300 hours on their diagnostic equipment. How is the user supposed to know how many hours the units have run? Do we write down every single hour that we use, or wait for the service engineer to tell us, hoping we haven't strayed over the reccommendations. If the CPU records the time, is it too much beyond technology to put an hours counter on, just like the engines? Imagine estimating every mile driven in your car to be ready for the next service!

 

Finally fuel additive reccommended by Eberspacher is 'Fuelset' which I have carefully added since told about it. I understand from the manufacturers that it helps to reduce water content and diesel bug problems, but appears to no have no effect on the sulphur content of red diesel. Hasn't helped me!

 

Regards

Roger

[Fuel__2001]

 

Just as an add on, my Eberspacher paperwork reccommends 2000 hour service intervals. The engineers told me that my CPU had registered 1300 hours on their diagnostic equipment. How is the user supposed to know how many hours the units have run? Do we write down every single hour that we use, or wait for the service engineer to tell us, hoping we haven't strayed over the reccommendations. If the CPU records the time, is it too much beyond technology to put an hours counter on, just like the engines? Imagine estimating every mile driven in your car to be ready for the next service!

 

 

What Eberspacher UK dont tell you is, you are able to check how many service hours a Hydronic 10 has done and get the fault codes to diagnose problems and reset the fault codes to zero using the 7 day timer, (eberspacher call it digital modulator timer) this is much cheaper than there fault diagnosis unit which retails around £200 ish , from my bad memory the cost for the 7 day timer is around £70. I found this out via the american site http://www.espar.com/ which is much more helpful than the british website.

 

http://www.eberspacher.com/press.php?section=press

 

go to digital timer modulator link and "save target as" otherwise the picture wont seem to display

 

 

Just to put my 2 pence in I now run my Hydronic 10 off of paraffin and have a 7 day timer due to the problrems i had with red diesel and a basic timer never knowing wehat the problems where when the eberspacher broke down. Since running from paraffin i havent had a problems in nearly a year and im live aboard and this is my only heating.

[Roger Gunkel]

What Eberspacher UK dont tell you is, you are able to check how many service hours a Hydronic 10 has done and get the fault codes to diagnose problems and reset the fault codes to zero using the 7 day timer, (eberspacher call it digital modulator timer) this is much cheaper than there fault diagnosis unit which retails around £200 ish , from my bad memory the cost for the 7 day timer is around £70. I found this out via the american site http://www.espar.com/ which is much more helpful than the british website.

 

http://www.eberspacher.com/press.php?section=press

 

go to digital timer modulator link and "save target as" otherwise the picture wont seem to display

Just to put my 2 pence in I now run my Hydronic 10 off of paraffin and have a 7 day timer due to the problrems i had with red diesel and a basic timer never knowing wehat the problems where when the eberspacher broke down. Since running from paraffin i havent had a problems in nearly a year and im live aboard and this is my only heating.

 

Hi Fuel 2001

 

Thats an interesting new comment, I'll check it out.

Was your Hydronic 10 new and what sort of problems did you have over what period of time?

 

Regards,

Roger

[Mick and Pauline]

What Eberspacher UK dont tell you is, you are able to check how many service hours a Hydronic 10 has done and get the fault codes to diagnose problems and reset the fault codes to zero using the 7 day timer, (eberspacher call it digital modulator timer) this is much cheaper than there fault diagnosis unit which retails around £200 ish , from my bad memory the cost for the 7 day timer is around £70. I found this out via the american site http://www.espar.com/ which is much more helpful than the british website.

 

http://www.eberspacher.com/press.php?section=press

 

go to digital timer modulator link and "save target as" otherwise the picture wont seem to display

Just to put my 2 pence in I now run my Hydronic 10 off of paraffin and have a 7 day timer due to the problrems i had with red diesel and a basic timer never knowing wehat the problems where when the eberspacher broke down. Since running from paraffin i havent had a problems in nearly a year and im live aboard and this is my only heating.

 

Hi,

 

This is what I was saying in my earlier comment about the use of Kerosene or Paraffin which is a lighter fuel with a density of 0.8 (lighter than Derv). It is produce for use in aeroplanes (Avtur) and a heating fuel, now because it is used by a lot of gardeners for greenhouse heating, one of the checks is for soot so the sulphur content is reduced hence less carbon deposits. I guess you (Fuel 2001) must have a second tank for your kero and how do you buy it, in what quantity. I have a seperate second tank for my boat heating and am deciding what to use for ease of supply.

 

The other comment about water and diesel bugs is correct, the main problem is not water because if left it will seperate and could be drained from a low point. When in suspension it turns the diesel cloudy but is still useable. The bugs are different and if left to acumulate will settle to the bottom of the tank so running the tank on a low level could cause a blockage of the fuel filters. So an additive for diesel bugs would be a good bet so you do not loose your engine at the wrong time, not quite the same importance with the boat heating.

 

M & P.