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Roger Gunkel's Eberspacher Update-its long!


Roger Gunkel

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Hi Julian,

I,m quite prepared to believe that a lot of systems are poorly installed and know that there were a number of installation problems with my own, although I'm not sure where your figure of 99% or anywhere near it came from.

 

However, surely the problem has less to do with the system shutting down, rather the problem of greater carbon produced by the red diesel at the slower running speeds.

 

 

I meant slow speeds as well

All systems produce carbon to some extent, My Mikuni very little the Old Dutch diesel stove needs cleaning every 3 months but then it is on 24/7 through the winter.

 

99% comes from manyyears being around boats and looking at the quality of work that has been done.

Sure there are a lot of good carpenters out there but thats not all it takes to build a boat.

IF I was having a new boat built I would project manage it myself and use many different tradesmen as I just dont trust one firm to do a job to the quality that I would demand.

My present boat has a reasonable fit out and was only a couple of years old when I got it, however I have had to replace all the heating and most of the plumbing and electrics to get it to the standard I want.

Luckilly that is something that I can do myself, however my carpentry leaves something to be desired (in my eyes).

 

J

Edited by idleness
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I, like MAFFI and some others, have tried to get some meaningful feedback from Eberspächer regarding this red diesel issue by putting some questions to them directly. I did not ask them anything about the means for establishing the hours run though - my main concern was ensuring compatibility with the fuel available on the cut. I must stress that, having been around this loop back in February 2006, I still feel that there is some merit in using a Hydronic 5 rather than opting for the 10 and I also feel that incorporating TRV's at the radiators would be a good idea. I spent a few hours on the theory and calculating the size of boiler required - not a route that everybody would like to take, but it did help me consolidate my thoughts. We have taken the precaution of incorporating two diesel tanks into our new build whilst we could do so with ease. You can read about our experiences here if you so wish (in the February entry).

 

BELLE - BLOG

 

These issues have been around for while now, so if it really is a matter for Eberspächer to sort out, then they better get a grip on it, otherwise they will get some more serious grief from their customers and potential customers will go elsewhere. Cheers, Chris.

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...These issues have been around for while now, so if it really is a matter for Eberspächer to sort out, then they better get a grip on it, otherwise they will get some more serious grief from their customers and potential customers will go elsewhere. Cheers, Chris.

Hello Chris

 

New Boat Co., who used to fit Ebers to all their boats and, because they are one of the largest suppliers of new canal boats around must have been a major customer of Eber, have already gone elsewhere - to Webasto which have been fitted to all their boats since the last year or so.

 

There is no such thing as a system which has never ever caused any problems for anyone. Even the top ranked and eye wateringly expensive Hurricane, which I'm gettting on my boat, has had one reader on this forum with major problems. The question though is the frequency of those problems and whether they are resolved satisfactorily. It appears to me from reading others' experiences here and elsewhere, like the New Boat Co.'s decision, that Ebers both seem to create more problems than other systems and that those problems are not cleared up properly.

 

It's no good Eber blaming the canalside fuel and that their systems work fine on road trucks. I expect they are right but that doesn't help us canal boaters. In effect, their product seems not to be fit for the purpose of heating a canal boat and they appear unable to rectify this fault. People should not fall for the twin tanks supposed answer either. I guess that would work if you could obtain the sort of clean fuels on the canalside that are recommended, such as paraffin or road diesel, but in general you cannot.

 

regards

Steve

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You know this Eberspacher thing seems to go on and on, we fit a lot of them and if they caused us grief we wouldn't be fitting them. The builder always takes the brunt of any problems so I would think that if they are really that bad no one would be fitting them.

 

Non of the marine units are designed for residential use so you have to pick the most suitable out of the remaining options.

 

Hopefully we are looking into a full blown domestic system based on normal domestic technology so if it comes to fruition I will let you know.

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Hi Steve, I agree, if there is a problem with the Eberspächer Hydronic 5/10, be it the fuel used and/or the installation designs employed by the boat builder, then it would be in Eberspächer's interests to get to the bottom of it one way or another. If this means collaborating with other manufacturers of this kind of kit in order to square up the fuel suppliers if they are at fault, then they should adopt a pro-active approach and get on with it. If it means developing their unit some more, then they should get on with that too. The Eberspächer bloke I talked to would not say if they were waiting for the dust to settle on the red diesel derogation issue, before committing to some more development.

 

I feel I should point out that our original thoughts behind the 'two tanks' idea was in response to the threat to the tax derogation on red diesel. So we were heading this way anyway - an added benefit is the option to use different fuels to help with this boiler sooting or gumming problem with Eberspächer (and possibly other units).

 

I agree with you, there is no such thing as 100% reliability, but I propose that, these days, you can get quite close to it. We have decided that we will not change from the Eberspächer Hydronic 5 just yet, because with us requiring a diesel fired system, we have not yet seen any objective evidence to prove this is not an endemic problem. It would be very interesting to structure a poll or on-line questionnaire on CWDF in such a way that this would drive out data that could then be used to indicate the reliability of all diesel fired boilers in use on inland waterway boats. This information could then be used alongside the first cost and service frequency/cost data from the manufacturers to calculate the approximate LCC (Life Cycle Cost) for each unit. Then we would see who has the best package around at the moment.

 

It would be interesting to learn if NBC descision was purely based on in-service reliability, or whether there were other influential factors (e.g. availability in Poland, or warranty coverage, avalability of field personnel, etc.).

 

Not looking forward to beating up Eberspächer during the warrantly period, but if needs must, then I will be!

 

Cheers, Chris.

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Just like Mick and Pauline, I find your reply from Eberspacher to be strange and rather disturbing.

I don't recall any admissions from petro chemical companies about this, does anyone else?

 

Hi Roger / Maffi,

 

I have given my grey matter a rest overnight and the only thing I can think that Eberspacher's are on about, could be the government changes to the sulphur content of road fuels. Over the last ten years the oil companies have been forced by regulations to reduce road fuel (Derv & Petrol) sulphur content, now 10ppm from 50ppm and even higher before that.

There has been no co-responding reduction in Red Gasoil (Diesel), so the heaters used in the road market are now using a lot sweeter fuel than they used to.

 

The point raised by Gary this morning points towards the two things coming out of this topic,

1) the heater size is a critical choice to its eventual performance. If the unit is too big for the boat it works at a too low throughput and cokes the burner quickly. Gary's boat market is mostly broad beam boats with bigger systems which work better at the correct throughput.

2) the use of different fuels does make a difference because of the sulphur content, so using Derv (10ppm) or using Coloured Paraffin will reduce the coking up of the burner.

 

M & P.

Edited by Mick and Pauline
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Hi Steve, I agree, if there is a problem with the Eberspächer Hydronic 5/10, be it the fuel used and/or the installation designs employed by the boat builder, then it would be in Eberspächer's interests to get to the bottom of it one way or another. If this means collaborating with other manufacturers of this kind of kit in order to square up the fuel suppliers if they are at fault, then they should adopt a pro-active approach and get on with it. If it means developing their unit some more, then they should get on with that too. The Eberspächer bloke I talked to would not say if they were waiting for the dust to settle on the red diesel derogation issue, before committing to some more development.

 

Hi Chris,

 

I think Eberspacher already know the answer to this topic but are not willing to admit it because it would finish their boat business.

For them to admit that you should use the low sulphur fuels in their heaters, would have a very big impact.

This is because:-

1) the fuel cost difference is so big with Red at 27p / litre and Derv at 98p / litre.

2) the lack of Derv and Paraffin suppliers on the canal network.

3) the use of a second tank for this fuel.

 

Would you admit to this publicly. ;)

 

M & P.

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...It would be interesting to learn if NBC descision was purely based on in-service reliability, or whether there were other influential factors (e.g. availability in Poland, or warranty coverage, avalability of field personnel, etc.).

 

Not looking forward to beating up Eberspächer during the warrantly period, but if needs must, then I will be!

 

Cheers, Chris.

Hi Chris

 

When I was looking for a boat, I visited New Boat Co. several times over a period of time as they were one of my potential suppliers. Most of their boats like their best selling Sandpiper range are built by Liverpool Boats, not in Poland by the way. It is only their Aqualine range that are from Poland.

 

It was during this period, covering the latter part of last year and earlier this one, that I noticed the change to Webasto from Eber. Because I researched in great depth the boat I wanted by looking at many boats both new and sh, talking to many builders, boaters and read extensively etc., I was interested in why NBC switched to Webasto, especially as by then I had gotten wind from this forum of a certain amount of dissatisfaction with Ebers. So I asked them and the answer was that Ebers lock up and need a call out if they fail to light a certain number of times whereas Webasto are easier to service. The clear implication was that Ebers simply are less reliable than Webasto and that they had a lot of trouble from customers with Ebers. The reason was not price, nor availability or any of the other possible factors that might influence such a decision - a business decision I might add, not a private user's view - it was the reliability.

 

Having said all this, I'm sure that there are a lot of satisfied Eber users out there as Gary from Ledgard suggests. But this isn't the point. The real point is the proportion of dissatisfied customers due to faults reported and then the quality of the service in fixing them. Given the choice, naturally one wants to go for the most reliable system available, that is the one with the lowest faults and the best service when inevitably some faults arise with some installations. The evidence is only anecdotal but it does not seem to me that Eber qualifies as one with the lowest proportion of faults. As I said earlier, I am particularly swayed by NBC's decision in this matter.

 

regards

Steve

Edited by anhar
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Hi y'all. Interesting to note that the NBC reason offered to Steve for switching from the Eber' (I am fed up with opening symbol and then inserting an a with an Umlaut on it) was down to the limitation on the number of ignition failures before automatic lock-up. I have to agree, I am none too impressed with this approach on the part of Eber either. I would like to think that my car engine managment system would not lock up if, say, I flooded the engine and could not get it started, etc. Such a feature certainly limits your options for overcoming the problem. However, I have already seen a potential 'work-around' for this, albeit I would much prefer that Eber did away with it. The underlying reason being poor reliability though, I am not too sure about.

 

I am aware that the Aqualine comes from Poland and that (well at the moment I believe this is the case) most of the other NBC narrowboats come from LBC. Not sure who does the wide beam for them. Who knows what will happen eventually, but that is 'off topic', so I will not go there on this thread. Steve; you must of course follow your own judgement based on the information currently available. I wish you all the best with your Hurricane.

 

I am minded to send another email to Eber with a link to this thread along with a request that they offer some feedback to this wider forum. I would be interested to see their response and any evidence they could offer to make matters clearer regarding the ability of their Hydronic 5/10 to function satisfactorily with a reasonable service interval/cost, whilst running on the 'red diesel' sold on the cut. Cheers, Chris.

Edited by NB.BELLE
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Hi all,

 

Just come on to the forum and found loads of interesting stuff that I have missed today.

 

I think Gary's comment was very relevant about Ebers and probably others not being designed for residential use. As I have said before, for low hours use, a service every year or two will probably keep these units running, but the problem starts with long hours residential use, when units start to give major problems fairly early on in their life. However, the Eber particularly is still marketed as 'Central Heating For Boats', and it is reasonable to assume that those looking to live aboard permanently would take this literally.

 

The comments about NBC changing to Webasto are also interesting and I am sure that the reasons quoted are quite correct. It is also interesting to see that Eberspacher are playing the fuel card very heavily presumably to tar the other manufacturers with the same brush.

Chris, you mentioned sending Eber an email with a link to this thread. I gave them the link some months ago, and I am quite sure that they are well aware of the concerns expressed here and in other areas.

 

I agree with M&P and others about the requirement for two tanks and the lack of availability of suitable fuel to boat users, not really a practical solution. Also as said by M&P, Eberspacher should adopt a pro-active approach, get off their backsides and work with everybody to get the problem solved.

 

I must say that at last I feel from the amount of serious discussion here, with corresponding feed back to heater manufacturers and boat builders (and from boat builders like Gary) that we can make real differences to product development.

 

Keep it up folks

Roger

Edited by Roger Gunkel
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Reply from Eberspacher. Sorry its a bit long.

 

Dear sir

 

Thank you for your response.

 

More questions I am afraid.

 

Dear Sir

 

In answer to your questions:-

 

Question 1. Given that the petrochemical companies have stopped supplying red diesel as it was and are now only supplying gas oil, what is your company doing to modify the units to improve the now poor operation of the units on the available fuel?

 

Answer 1:. Given that the Eberspacher product was introduced into the Marine market when 'red diesel' was diesel with a red dye in, maybe your question on this issue should be directed towards the petrochemical companies or fuel suppliers. However our company is not in the process of modifying existing heaters for this market although our parent company is working on a new heater to run on the new fuels. We are informed that this heater will not be introduced to the market until the latter part of next year.

 

To help alleviate the current fuel issues we recommend the use of a fuel additive, either, 'Fuel Set' or 'Fortron'. These are both readily available from most good Chandlers.

 

Question 2. Is there any modification that you can make to my new unit that will allow normal operation on gas oil in a canal situation?

 

Answer 2. As mentioned previously there is no modification to the heater available. We would propose the use of a smaller heater, a D5WSC for your 58 foot narrow boat as opposed to the Hyd 10. This will keep the heater running in high heat output mode for longer which in turn will help reduce the build up of carbon deposits. Also ensure that correct installation of the heater and components (including batteries/re-charging) will aid to the longevity of the heater.

 

Question 3. What exactly is it in the fuel that causes the problem? Can it be filtered out in any way?

 

Answer 3. Gas oil as far as we are aware has higher sulphur content and a lower cetane rating. We would suggest you contact the petrochemical company for a more exact content.

 

Question 4. Given that you still recommend the Hydronics Range for use on narrowboats are you aware exactly what it takes get paraffin or white diesel to a boat?

 

Question 5. I have an 80 ltr tank for heating fuel; I'm not exactly going to be able to carry that quantity down a muddy towpath in the middle of winter. There are few if any suppliers on the 3000km of canals. Is this an acceptable situation given that you recommend these units for canal operation?

 

Answers 4 & 5. As we do not know where you intend to moor your boat this question is difficult to answer, however we are aware of other users doing exactly this so we assumed it is a possible solution.

 

Question 6. You say that the service interval is reduced, by how much? And how do I tell how long the unit has run? (There doesn't appear to be an 'hours run' counter)

 

Answer 6. We recommend on average with leisure use the heater should be serviced annually. With a live aboard we would recommend a bi-annual service.

 

Question 7. I am led to believe that after three failed starts the microprocessor shuts down and needs to be reset by an engineer. Is this the case?

 

Answer 7. The Hydronic 10 heater will allow for 10 failed starts before it locks out and 3 successive overheats before it locks out.

 

The Hydronic 5 heater will allow for 10 failed starts before it locks out and 10 successive overheats before it locks out.

 

Although these can be reset by the user if our 701 10 007 timer control is used, it does not overcome the cause of the failure that would need to be investigated.

 

Question 8. I understand that the igniter is susceptible to damage from a spiking battery charger. Is this the case? If so, would it not be possible to 'beef' up the igniter to prevent this happening?

 

Answer 8. Most electronic equipment will be susceptible to damage from spiking within an electrical circuit. The answer to this is to prevent spiking occurring as damage could occur to other electronic equipment on the boat.

 

Sorry for all the questions. I have spent 35 years working with aircraft jet engines and fuel systems. I am trying to apply my engineering logic to what is basically a similar situation. Even the Harrier Jump Jet can be made to run on gas oil with a few tweaks here and there.

 

Please understand my boat will be my only residence and I need to know what to expect during the winter.

 

We hope this has allayed your fears and answered your questions.

 

Should you require any further information or assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us.

 

You can bet your sweet bippy I will be contacting them again!

 

Kind regards

 

Eberspacher (UK) Ltd

Heating Division

Edited by Maffi
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'Whirlwind' has a permanently heated radiator in the bath room which is on whenever the Webasto is on. Peter Nicholls told me that he always does it so, so that the heater is always running under some load. Apparently there can be problems if the thing is semi-permanently running on 'tick-over'....

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Hi MAFFI,

 

These replies are absolutely fascinating, as they don't actually seem to give you any answers at all!.

 

Given that the comments about red diesel is a clear implication that the units do not run on red, I would refer back to M&Ps earlies reply that red diesel has not in fact changed, and that the sulphur content was actually reduced for derv. This would suggest the fact that the units would therefore never had run properly on red diesel, or have I missed something here? Also I seem to recall that these changes were some years ago and many of us have purchased since that time. Eber are also still marketing these units for marine and river use.

 

Is it not just my blood that is boiling?

 

It seems to me that there is no doubt whatsoever that Eberspacher are quite clearly stating that Hydronics will not run properly on red diesel as we buy it. However they seem to be saying very clearly that the diesel is now heating oil and that it has changed from earlier red diesel. M&P are suggesting that red hasn't changed, so is anyone able to back that up with serious facts? If red diesel has reduced in quality, then these units should not still be sold to the boating industry, if it hasn't changed then Eberspacher have a lot to answer for. Lets get to the bottom of it once and for all!

 

Incidentally MAFFI, how many hours does a bi-annual service cover?? Someone seems to have neglected to tell you!

 

Roger

Edited by Roger Gunkel
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Hi all

I feel the need to put in a few pennyworth to this discussion, so here goes.

Firstly I worked on a lot of lorries in the eighties and ealry ninties. Many of these were fitted with Eberspacher heaters, often known as cab or night heaters. However I have never seen a hydronic system in a lorry. They were all blown air at that time. Likewse a lot of minibusses I worked on, up to 28 seater, were blown air. They had underfloor or side of vehicle ducts and a blown air heater plumbed into them, often mounted at the rear of the vehicle.

I understand many modern coaches have wet heating systems but cannot comment as I have never worked on them or seen the specs.

Back to the blown air Ebers. Well often they would be run all night, the cabs have a lot of single glazed glass and not (then at least) much insulation.

The blown air heaters were used during the day in winter too, Often plumbed into the trucks heater outlets for demisting and warming the cab.

So all in all I would say that in wagons they were reliable, but as I am stressing these were not hydronic units.

Apart from periodic glow plugs, pumps and ocassionally a control module they served us well.

I have known people run these on red too, mainly in motorhomes where they have fitted something like a 2cv tank to take the red. Again I dont know the amount of use these would have received but obviously not the same amount as a livaboard boat.

Never having seen a diagram for a hydronic I cannot comment on design differences but would not be surprised if they were structurally very disimilar, thus making the comment 'They work ok in trucks' completely irrelevant.

Hope this may contribute something,

Regards

 

Richard

Edited by Cafnod
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I don't know about other readers but as a newcomer to boating, and having ordered my new boat, I have definitely been put off Eberspachers by the bad press on this forum and therefore have gone with another system. I saw my first potential boat to buy only last year. It had an Eber system. At the time I thought nothing of it, I had never heard of Eber anyway so knew nothing about them nor much else to do with boats.

 

After an enjoyable hire trip I'd decided to buy a boat but being cautious, and not wishing to buy on the initial romantic impulse without considering all the warts, I took my time, went to see a large number of vessels for sale, both new and second hand. At the same time I went on a reading spree, covering acres of old messages on this forum, plus many books, mags, boaters' websites etc. especially for information on technical matters like engines, batteries, heating, toilets and the like, The idea of course was to stuff myself with knowledge to enable me to make a more reasoned choice of boat. I was wary of buying one whilst knowing too little about it in case I made a big mistake.

 

In all this reading, a lot of the advice around is conflicting. There are people who will tell you some feature is good, others will tell you it's not. This is because a lot of the information is based on personal preference. Difficult in such cases for the novice like me to make a judgement. In some cases the differences are irrelevant for all practical purposes anyway.

 

Understandably, because the UK is generally a cold country for most of the year, heating systems figure largely in discussions. Personally I want to be warm and comfortable throughout the boat with the minimum of work and mess. This immediately rules out solid fuel as the sole source and therefore I decided on a ch system. Question is which one. It's an expensive choice and not easily changed for another system once installed.

 

Ebers were probably the most common when I started looking but at the same time I couldn't help noticing the volume of complaints that they seemed to generate, arising it appears from some sort of incompatability with the kind of diesel fuel obtainable on the canals, which Eber have confirmed. So it's not just users with rogue examples, it seems to be an inherent problem. Eber claim that a fuel additive cures this but some people here have tried that and still experience problems

 

Anyway, all this has ruled out Eber for me. I see no reason to take the risks of problems to which the company itself has admitted when there are several rival makes around. Unfortunately all this is anecdotal, not scientfic but if that's all we have to go on, I for one am going to take notice.

 

regards

Steve

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Why does living on the boat rule out a solid fuel stove? they are not dirty, well as long as you don't spill the ash everywhere :cheers:

 

OK we don't live onboard but we do use the boat all year round. The Bensham is 40 feet long and has a Little Hayward stove fitted. Gives out a maximum of 3.5kW.

 

We have a layout out of bedroom for'd, bathroom, lounge with the galley at the stern. The stove is in the rear half of the cabin. In winter (frost on the outside) we have been very warm inside - windows open for fresh air and ventilation etc. Some folk on the forum have the eco fans to circulate the warm air around - we haven't found it necessary.

 

Using either anthracite or the re-formed smokeless fuel briquettes we have had the fire going for days and days with a twice daily empty of the ash can. Storage of the fuel is either on the roof or in the cratch and we usually keep 25 to 50kg onboard which in the winter 50kg gives us about 4 days of fuel. Modern fuels are not that bad to handle and are certainly more reliable than diesel fired heaters. Matches - paper sticks then wooden sticks - fuel. Within the hour the heating is on full.

 

For the next boat we will have a back boiler on the SF stove for the hot water with a second hot water tank from the engine jacket water - because I hate wasting heat.

 

Another perspective of life onboard - for me I like the simple life and diesel heaters just appear to be too much hassle.

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Gary,

 

In the plans I am doing at the moment for the new vessel, I am allowing 750 for a solid fuel fire with back boiler and 300 for a gas stove. How does that compare with the Heritage - anywhere close at a grand?

 

Thanks

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Yup it's a bit of a beast both in spec and price!

It's not too bad in the bigger picture when you consider what we build and our standard specs, after all you loose the Hydronic 10, cooker, hob and all the gas related fittings and labour and this helps to offset the cost of the Heritage unit.

 

HSW-Web-Uno-S.jpg

 

You can fit a compact on a narrowboat but it's a big exspensive lump, the UNO above would be cheaper and easier and we are about to fit one on a narrowboat later this month. I will get some pictures and costs for you to look at.

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Reply from Eberspacher. Sorry its a bit long.

 

Question 1. Given that the petrochemical companies have stopped supplying red diesel as it was and are now only supplying gas oil, what is your company doing to modify the units to improve the now poor operation of the units on the available fuel?

 

Answer 1:. Given that the Eberspacher product was introduced into the Marine market when 'red diesel' was diesel with a red dye in, maybe your question on this issue should be directed towards the petrochemical companies or fuel suppliers. However our company is not in the process of modifying existing heaters for this market although our parent company is working on a new heater to run on the new fuels. We are informed that this heater will not be introduced to the market until the latter part of next year.

 

Hi again MAFFI,

 

Just thought I'd return to your Eberspacher replies, or rather this one in particular, to direct you to my Red Diesel/Shell thread on this forum. Seems to be not quite the response from the 'petrochemical companies' that they seemed to suggest methinks!

 

Roger

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OK folks,

 

My Hydronic 5 is now working once more!

The engineers arrived Wednesday morning to carry out some mods and completely service the heater.

 

Just to recap very briefly, the system and its Hydronic 10 predecessor had failed before reaching the reccommended service hours on several occasions since new in September 2004.

Each time, the units have been heavily coked up and the general concensus of opinion has been due to red diesel producing more carbon at lower boiler levels. The D5 was put in place of the D10 to enable it to work harder to burn off the extra carbon, along with the suggestion to leave a radiator open. The alternative of a heated towel rail in the bathroom with the original D10, to dissipate more heat was turned down due to lack of space, lack need and unwillingness on our part to fork out more money on top of the £2500 we had already paid for the installation. (Full details of all this for any new readers are posted earlier in this thread)

 

I agreed to accept a permanent heat dissipation by having the existing back bedroom radiator re-plumbed into a separate loop in series with the calorifier as the current thinking is that this will enable the heater to run at high speed without cycling, because of the extra heat loss. This is a solution that I am not happy with, as the radiator now cannot be shut down. With Summer temperatures regularly over 80 degrees on the boat, we are having to have a radiator too hot to touch while the water is heating, together with the obvious burning of fuel, to produce a heat loss through a radiator just to stop the unit coking up. This would presumably mean that the radiator is using more calories of unwanted heat than the calorifier is. I have agreed to this modification in order to try to adopt a workable compromise to keep it operating although this was not part of the original expectation.

 

When the heater unit was dismantled, it was found to have a sticky tar like deposit around the inside of the combustion chamber, which appeared to me to be typical of poor combustion. I was shown the fuel filter, which was about the size of half a peanut, which appeared to be clogged with sludge. The filter itself if fitted inside the heater unit. I was stunned to find that this is the only filter in the whole fuel line for the D5, apparently due to the probability of a larger filter reducing the fuel pressure. The sludge in the filter was blamed for the failure, due to a corresponding restriction to the fuel flow.

 

I am not totally happy with this deduction for a number of reasons. The engineer felt that the fuel take off in the tank was actually touching the bottom of the tank so drawing up any contamination. This followed a conversation that I had with them about a complaint to NBC when the boat was a couple of months old and I suspected that the fuel take off was lower than specified. NBC sent out an engineer to carry out a mod which I have no reason to suspect was not done as I was present at the time. I have also been meticulous with my fuel supplies as well as adding Fuelset and keeping the tank topped up. I am also concerned that the sludge had a sooty burnt look to it and was taken from a filter sitting inside a sticky black mess of a combustion chamber for 2 months of non use. When I look at the filtering in an engine fuel system then the one in this 'highly sophistcated and sensitive boiler,' I am frankly amazed. The previous failures had also all occurred in a similar manner although there was no evidence of any fuel flow problems whatsoever.

 

Moving on from the heater, my other complaint was that there is a servicing interval reccommended in hours for these units, but no means of reading hours used on them as supplied. Eberspacher had agreed to fit a 7 day timer with hours run and diagnostic codes to get over that problem.

 

I have also requested via NBC, that Eberspacher supply me with a reccommended practices information sheet for, keeping my heater running for the prescribed service interval hours on the available fuel, namely red diesel. This is yet to be forthcoming but I am hopeful of receiving it shortly.

 

CONCLUSION

I have not been asked to pay for these mods and service, which will be covered by Eberspacher and/or NBC, neither would I have expected to be in view of the history. However I am satisfied that Eberspacher have recognised that certainly in my instance, there has been a problem with running the units in the circumstances and I have been willing to compromise in an effort to find a workable solution. I hope that although not up to my original expectations, this unit will continue to run for the full service interval and that at some future date I can relay this information back to the forum. Be assured that if the same problem arises yet again, so will I!

NBC although no longer fitting these units as standard, have continued to work with me to sort out the problems, in addition to noting and hopefully acting on some serious quality control issues that have also been brought to light. For that my thanks to Will, the NBC Warranty Manager.

 

The issue of red diesel and marine heating systems has not gone away and I sincerely hope that prospective purchasers will continue to check with suppliers on the compatability of their intended units. Perhaps manufacturers will continue to develop their products for the available market in an open and accountable manner. Perhaps Pink farm animals will take up aviation!

 

Roger

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When the heater unit was dismantled, it was found to have a sticky tar like deposit around the inside of the combustion chamber, which appeared to me to be typical of poor combustion. I was shown the fuel filter, which was about the size of half a peanut, which appeared to be clogged with sludge. The filter itself if fitted inside the heater unit. I was stunned to find that this is the only filter in the whole fuel line for the D5, apparently due to the probability of a larger filter reducing the fuel pressure. The sludge in the filter was blamed for the failure, due to a corresponding restriction to the fuel flow.

 

I am not totally happy with this deduction for a number of reasons. The engineer felt that the fuel take off in the tank was actually touching the bottom of the tank so drawing up any contamination. This followed a conversation that I had with them about a complaint to NBC when the boat was a couple of months old and I suspected that the fuel take off was lower than specified. NBC sent out an engineer to carry out a mod which I have no reason to suspect was not done as I was present at the time. I have also been meticulous with my fuel supplies as well as adding Fuelset and keeping the tank topped up. I am also concerned that the sludge had a sooty burnt look to it and was taken from a filter sitting inside a sticky black mess of a combustion chamber for 2 months of non use. When I look at the filtering in an engine fuel system then the one in this 'highly sophistcated and sensitive boiler,' I am frankly amazed. The previous failures had also all occurred in a similar manner although there was no evidence of any fuel flow problems whatsoever.

 

Firstly the fact that there is no external filter is vcery bad practice.

There is no way the internal filters ( if they have them) of any of these types of heater will deal with the rubbish that is in boat fuel tanks.

One of these:

http://tinyurl.com/eeq7c

should be fitted to any diesel heater and it shouldnt affect the flow at all if the system is properly fitted.

 

are you sure it was a filter? if its gauze and in the combustion chamber its NOT a fiter........

 

If ther sludge was in a filter it sounds like "diesel bug" and the only way that I have found to combat this is to use soltron

http://www.soltron.co.uk

which is an enzime that "eats" the bug. Fuelset is fine if you dont have the bug it will remove the water in the fuel that the bug thrives on but once the bug is there soltron is the only way.

 

Julian

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