Say no to the inclined plane

[carlt]

No, just England!

Wide beam access North to South and an East/West link that is properly dredged would transform the inland waterways but, sadly, it is not going to happen.

[Naughty Cal]

Wide beam access North to South and an East/West link that is properly dredged would transform the inland waterways but, sadly, it is not going to happen.

 

Is that not the sea?

[carlt]

Is that not the sea?

No, there are many people who would enjoy bringing their sea going boat inland, for a holiday.

 

French boatyards make good money stepping and unstepping masts for the inland journey to the Med, despite the sea link being available.

[barge sara]

Is that not the sea?

 

Unfortunately it is, and likely to remain so.

Unfortunate because Goole to London via Grimsby and Felixtowe is not as attractive as going via Nottingham!

As for the sea passage from Goole to Liverpool.......

[Derek R.]

(snipped valid list for brevity)

 

Political, when asked, the locals voted for the locks, so the trust asked the question again...

 

This has also split the trust, as only a few members really want the plane, but some committee members are pushing it.

 

TBH this has probably held the restoration back 10-15 years, which is a shame as the Newport Branch would make a lovely, if energetic, cruise.

 

Precisely how politics destroys commonsense, and draws ridicule. So often just such actions are the Bee in the Bonnet of a few with some sway, over the many with their heads on correctly, and who know which way round to sit on a toilet seat.

 

Evo has a point. There is a lot of nonsense attached to the word 'heritage', and it has become a scapegoat word for anything someone thinks worth saving - right down to half a dozen rivets from an old ship. It's indicative of a society that has lost its sense of value. Part of this is due to the enormous amount of historic canal infrastructure that has been demolished and replaced with glass and steel, a bus station - or nothing, and part due to a considerable amount of disposable income that has become available to the average working man this past forty years, and his innate desire to 'have'. But things change, and in some ways - it's payback time.

Speaking of values - whilst steam power would undoubtedly be an attraction in itself, the ongoing finance to support the fuel and labour cost would surely break the bank without a fee for admission for the whole site - now that would be a problem. I hardly think the area is well positioned for another Black Country Museum style complex. All other steam venues are massively supported by the paying public and no small amount of volunteer work. Nice idea - but electric has to be 'the' choice. Barton swing bridge may come as a parallel - what chance that being operated as it is if steam were the motive power - or even Anderton come to that?

 

Interesting to note how the Victorians might have viewed the new Anderton lift as an eyesore. It may have resembled a Gasometer, but in such an industrial location, and given its benefits to industrial traffic and commodities, most would have accepted it as a revelation of their technological age - provided it was not in their backyard!

 

We live in 'interesting' times, and the future is one clouded in financial uncertainty for this nation, as it has recently been broadcast as is that of Greece. The country is skint. Fuel and power costs are set to rise dramatically, and the folly of dependance on so called 'sustainable' energy will fail to provide the necessary from the socket in the wall when most needed. Another subject altogether - but nonetheless relevant to projects embarked upon today.

 

When the power fails, it's nice to have a windlass in your belt - and a stick in the stove.

 

Derek

[Amduck]

I have been an active or passive supporter of the Huddersfield Narrow and the Droitwich, one of which has been open a number of years and one of which will open next year

 

I know this is , but I thought Droitwich was supposed to open this year. Any more info?

[T.A]

I know this is , but I thought Droitwich was supposed to open this year. Any more info?

 

I bought a Waterways World mag yesterday there was an article on the Droitwich Canal apparently they are trying to open the Barge Canal later this year that is the part that runs from the Severn to Vines Park in Droitwich. There is a problem at the moment with the junction canal, the bit that runs from Vines Park to Hanbury Wharf, to do with the the old site of the Land Rover dealership which was going to be developed as part of the land to be redeveloped I understand to facilitate work needed for the Junction Canal that development has been dropped due to the downturn.

[bag 'o' bones]

Pictures of the Norbury lock flight which I took a couple of years a go:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...st&p=294747

 

I can understand why the villages are against the idea of an incline, the roads are very narrow with lots of bends. Can you imagine the carnage at the height of the season!

 

I'm interested to hear that the profesional recommendation is to restore the lock flight as according to the trust an incline plane would be preferable due to water supply problems.

[Guest]

Pictures of the Norbury lock flight which I took a couple of years a go:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...st&p=294747

 

I can understand why the villages are against the idea of an incline, the roads are very narrow with lots of bends. Can you imagine the carnage at the height of the season!

 

I'm interested to hear that the profesional recommendation is to restore the lock flight as according to the trust an incline plane would be preferable due to water supply problems.

 

great pictures, there indeed is something fascinating about abandoned canals and their related structures.

[magpie patrick]

I used heritage because thats what people always say is being destroyed. Why didn't we leave the Mary Rose on the bottom..!! Yet we cant decide wether to lay a few rails on a bit of grass and resurrect something interesting. If all people want to do is sit around having a picnic on the grass where it used to be - fair enough, i give up.

 

We have no industry in this country now except the tourist industry, our engineering heritage is all we have left to exploit. A pile of rusty iron and rotting concrete do not a heritage site make. Why do we have to do everything by half, its why we are in the mess we are in. Indecisiveness (is that a word)

 

 

Edit:- "In the Mess" replaces "in the sh**" at request of moderator

 

 

Okay, My view, bearing in mind I worked on it professionally and Foxton to me falls in the QI box.

 

We went for three rails out of practicality, it was going to be easier to drive piles between the old rails rather than through them. It had the advantage of minimising destruction of the original (and probably helped in getting EH support) but main motive was price. Surely a win-win IF it's cheaper AND doesn't disturb the original.

 

We wanted tanks that looked like the originals, and our proposal was to retain the wet dock system, not least as to change to a dry dock system was again more expensive, and potentially involved regrading the whole plane! However we answered concerns about people riding on their boats by saying that hand rails COULD be fitted if it was required.

 

The business case just didn't work with "busy day only" operations, as the ones who pay most are not the boaters but the land based visitors. and they want to see it working. Hence electric, there was always the option of having steam available for "steam days"

 

In addition, if it became part of a wide boat route, then it needs to be open most days of the year as the locks are narrow

 

We put a lot of work into the traffic side, with signing strategies, park and ride and park and sail, placing new car parks where coming through the village was less attractive etc. In my experience, a lot of objections to many developments, not just canal ones, the traffic objection is ill-informed. Unfortunatley traffic is one area where everyone thinks they are an expert.

 

My view, while the site is a lot better than when I worked on it (in part due to our recommendations) is that it is a fossil: a very attractive fossil but a fossil nevertheless. Everyone who wants interpretation should ask what better interpretation could there be than bringing it back to life?

[bag 'o' bones]

Okay, My view, bearing in mind I worked on it professionally and Foxton to me falls in the QI box.

 

We went for three rails out of practicality, it was going to be easier to drive piles between the old rails rather than through them. It had the advantage of minimising destruction of the original (and probably helped in getting EH support) but main motive was price. Surely a win-win IF it's cheaper AND doesn't disturb the original.

 

We wanted tanks that looked like the originals, and our proposal was to retain the wet dock system, not least as to change to a dry dock system was again more expensive, and potentially involved regrading the whole plane! However we answered concerns about people riding on their boats by saying that hand rails COULD be fitted if it was required.

 

The business case just didn't work with "busy day only" operations, as the ones who pay most are not the boaters but the land based visitors. and they want to see it working. Hence electric, there was always the option of having steam available for "steam days"

 

In addition, if it became part of a wide boat route, then it needs to be open most days of the year as the locks are narrow

 

We put a lot of work into the traffic side, with signing strategies, park and ride and park and sail, placing new car parks where coming through the village was less attractive etc. In my experience, a lot of objections to many developments, not just canal ones, the traffic objection is ill-informed. Unfortunatley traffic is one area where everyone thinks they are an expert.

 

My view, while the site is a lot better than when I worked on it (in part due to our recommendations) is that it is a fossil: a very attractive fossil but a fossil nevertheless. Everyone who wants interpretation should ask what better interpretation could there be than bringing it back to life?

 

My personal view is to restore the Foxton lift to its original specification where possible including the 4 rail configuration.

 

If it means destroying the original foundations so be it. If they are replaced with modern rails that for all intents and purposes look exactly the same whats the problem? Its not as though it is ancient structure!

[Hairy-Neil]

If they are replaced with modern rails that for all intents and purposes look exactly the same whats the problem?

 

Where are you goung to source Great Western Railway 'bridge rail' today?

[bag 'o' bones]

Where are you goung to source Great Western Railway 'bridge rail' today?

 

It is still produced. What do you think dock cranes run on? Or any large movable equipment for that matter.

[magpie patrick]

My personal view is to restore the Foxton lift to its original specification where possible including the 4 rail configuration.

 

If it means destroying the original foundations so be it. If they are replaced with modern rails that for all intents and purposes look exactly the same whats the problem? Its not as though it is ancient structure!

 

None of the original structure will take the load, you'd have to reinforce it or demolish it all together. Those rails don't just lie on the ground, they are on arched structures up to 50 feet high.

 

 

 

I know this is , but I thought Droitwich was supposed to open this year. Any more info?

 

 

as it's now in WW (ahem, wonder where richard fairhurst got his info ) a brief synopsis.

 

The canal is complete except for snagging from the Severn to Droitwich, and from The Worcs and Brum to the Salwarpe about 3/4 mile from the Droitwich Canal Basin.

 

The Salwarpe was to be canalised as part of a development on the old car dealership. This isn't a straight forward job, the river was never navigable on this length, it needs to be widened, deepened and a towpath built. Critically under the towpath will be a pipe taking the bywash of the river lock to the basin in Vines park. The river lock will empty into the river, but the bywash carries the flow of Body Brook as well as the canal and this keeps the brook out of the river giving much needed flood alleviation.

 

This was to be delivered as part of the development. To use the technical jargon, the development has gone tits up.

 

There is enough water in the Salwarpe to work the barge canal locks a dozen of more times a day, but the Junction Canal can not open until the river section is completed. BW are now trying to find ways to fund the missing £500k that the developer was going to cough up.

 

Hopefully open in full next year

[churchward]

My heart says I would love to see Foxton incline rebuilt and working but my head asks is it worth the money that would need to be invested?

 

It will take a lot of cash for sure, would that be better spent elsewhere? It may be better to build narrowboat sized caissons rather than the original doubles etc to help bring down the cost. The argument about allowing access for wider craft is mute unless something is done at Watford and the pound in between cleared and dredged the weed beds make some places quite narrow.

 

If it was built it certainly would be a great sight. I do think though that it would need to be sympathetic to the remains of the original that is there and find some way to cover the old track-way and build the new tracks to the side. I think it would be a mistake to destroy what is left.

[carlt]

Those rails don't just lie on the ground, they are on arched structures up to 50 feet high.

Interest piqued...

 

You don't have any drawings, or sources to drawings, do you?

[churchward]

My personal view is to restore the Foxton lift to its original specification where possible including the 4 rail configuration.

 

If it means destroying the original foundations so be it. If they are replaced with modern rails that for all intents and purposes look exactly the same whats the problem? Its not as though it is ancient structure!

True it is old not ancient but the thing is the ancient structures are only around to day because they had a severe leaving alone when they were newer rather than knocking them down when subsequent generations got bored with them

Edited May 21, 2010 by churchward

[magpie patrick]

Interest piqued...

 

You don't have any drawings, or sources to drawings, do you?

 

Could take a while to find them, but I've stood underneath the structure, underneath it's part filled in, but impressive

 

Don't wonder in uninvited, or at least not alone, confined spaces are not that safe

[cotswoldsman]

Saw this notice in a boat window and presume it's referring to Foxton. didn't know there was a protest about it, what can be the objection?

 

i don't have the energy to read through all the posts but most of them refer to foxton so apologize if this has been mentioned before I think it refers to Norbury Junction as they are handing them out at Norbury

[cotswoldsman]

Norbury Junction Incline Click Here for Details

[Richard Fairhurst]

as it's now in WW (ahem, wonder where richard fairhurst got his info )

FWIW - an off-the-record conversation in a canalside café followed by a fair amount of work trying to stand it up in quotable form.

[Theo]

It'll be this one ..................

 

[Theo]

i don't have the energy to read through all the posts but most of them refer to foxton so apologize if this has been mentioned before I think it refers to Norbury Junction as they are handing them out at Norbury

 

It's worth reading right through, though. This is one of the best topics in ages! Stuffed with fascinating fact and opinion.

 

 

N

[Steilsteven]

Wide beam access North to South and an East/West link that is properly dredged would transform the inland waterways but, sadly, it is not going to happen.

 

How very British, wasn't that said of the Huddersfield narrow, the Wey and Arun, the Cotswolds canals and even Brindleys auqueduct for that matter?

 

Keith.

[the grinch]

How very British, wasn't that said of the Huddersfield narrow, the Wey and Arun, the Cotswolds canals and even Brindleys auqueduct for that matter?

 

Keith.

 

the Wey & Arun will pass 68 x12 ft once restored. all the new locks north of Devil's hole lock will be 74 x 14 ft (DHL and Brewhurst are 74 x 12) all south of Brewhurst are the original 68x12 dimensions

 

aren't the cotswold canals wide as well?