Jump to content
Strawberry Orange Banana Lime Leaf Slate Sky Blueberry Grape Watermelon Chocolate Marble
Strawberry Orange Banana Lime Leaf Slate Sky Blueberry Grape Watermelon Chocolate Marble
barmyfluid

Beta JD3 calorifier confusion

Featured Posts

3 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Depends where you regularly fill up. London is as hard as bricks, Manchester is so soft it dissolves lead. Most of the scale falls to the bottom anyway.

I suspect we have filled up from most of the taps that a 70 footer can get too, probably more K&A than anywhere, but lately its mostly Yorkshire stuff.

I saw a Yorkshire Water van recently, whilst most utilities have crap slogans like "making your life better" this one simply said "Yorkshire Water, only available in Yorkshire"

 

..............Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, dmr said:

 

If the calorifier coil "in and out" really are above the level of the water in the header tank then its not good. Can you lower the calorifier?  But this is all very odd, the calorifier is a big heavy item and would normally be sat on the floor, not fixed to the wall.  Its possible that there is enough "push" from the engine water pump to get water up into the calorifier and shift most of the air but this is far from ideal, and as you say the water might drain down everytime you stop the engine (it probably wont, but will still be a source of air lock issues when you change the antifreeze).

 

Feeling the pipes whilst the engine is running will tell you if you have water flowing, they should be too hot to touch when the engine is up to temperature, it should be running at about 80 degrees.

 

Beta supply the engine, I think this includes the  calorifier "fittings" but the rest is down to the boat builder so will not be in the Engine Manual. You can download a more general manual for engine installation from the Beta website, I cant remember if it includes any calorifier stuff.

 

My header tank is at the gearbox end but its probably a bit different to yours as our original engine was one of the very early ones and has a tank fabricated by beta (it looks quite good) but they now use a proper cast tank.

 

Water level in the header tank is a tricky one, especially if your heating coil is draining down. There should be a little overflow on the filer neck? I plumb this into a bottle via a plastic pipe. I use a plastic coke bottle, only a Kelvin is allowed to use a glass whiskey bottle 😀   I occasionally fill the tank almost full (to about where the copper bypass pipe goes in) then any expansion loss goes into the bottle so the engine establishes its own level.   It used to end up about an inch and a half down but for some reason its going a lot lower of late...I am trying to work out whats going on right now.

I'm having a similar issue with my JD3, with the header overflowing & settling at a significantly lower level than I'm used to. I've been told there may be an airlock somewhere. I have yet to find evidence of that. Can't shift the bleed screw on the head, but will continue trying.

I'd be interested to hear if you find out what's going on with your engine!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, dmr said:

 

What is the water level in the header tank? Can you do a photo of engine and calorifier?

 

As requested:

 

 

IMG_20190108_145901.jpg.465535e399c90fbc233b0fc156515709.jpg

 

 

The top of the header tank (outside) is about level with the bottom of the 'mushroom', and the calorifier in/outs are the 2 pipes above the metal band, if I filled the tank almost to the top then they'd still be 2-6" higher than the water level. 

 

Will try filling the header some more, can't try and bleed the cylinder head right now as don't have a square socket of the right size to fit the plug (15mm/5/8th?). It's crane in day tomorrow (touch wood, was supposed to go in last week) and I'll be able to give it a proper workout, see if I can get confirmation the keel tank is circulating.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, barmyfluid said:

As requested:

 

 

IMG_20190108_145901.jpg.465535e399c90fbc233b0fc156515709.jpg

 

 

The top of the header tank (outside) is about level with the bottom of the 'mushroom', and the calorifier in/outs are the 2 pipes above the metal band, if I filled the tank almost to the top then they'd still be 2-6" higher than the water level. 

 

Will try filling the header some more, can't try and bleed the cylinder head right now as don't have a square socket of the right size to fit the plug (15mm/5/8th?). It's crane in day tomorrow (touch wood, was supposed to go in last week) and I'll be able to give it a proper workout, see if I can get confirmation the keel tank is circulating.

Once you are in the water you can give the engine a good run and get it hot, hopefully when the cooling system comes up to temperature and pressure it could well move it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, barmyfluid said:

As requested:

 

 

IMG_20190108_145901.jpg.465535e399c90fbc233b0fc156515709.jpg

 

 

The top of the header tank (outside) is about level with the bottom of the 'mushroom', and the calorifier in/outs are the 2 pipes above the metal band, if I filled the tank almost to the top then they'd still be 2-6" higher than the water level. 

 

Will try filling the header some more, can't try and bleed the cylinder head right now as don't have a square socket of the right size to fit the plug (15mm/5/8th?). It's crane in day tomorrow (touch wood, was supposed to go in last week) and I'll be able to give it a proper workout, see if I can get confirmation the keel tank is circulating.

Thanks, that Calorifier looks Much smaller than mine so does not look wrong hung on the wall, I was visualising the huge thing that we have. After more though plus the posts from Sam And Ditch' I am a lot less concerned about the heating coil height above the engine, though I still think it "non optimum".

 

Does it look like that bleedscrew has ever been undone?  When we got our replacement engine from John Deere several of the "plugs" where done up ludicrously tight.

I think its pretty essential to get that bleed working as whenever you drain and reflil the engine quite a bit of air will be trapped there, and I am not at all sure  that normal engine running  removes it.  I replaced mine with a brass BSP fitting (which seals ok even though the hole is likely not BSP) and drilled it out to take a thermocouple fitting. This gives me a good temperature reading and also makes bleeding very easy, I just extract the thermocouple and the air comes nicely out of the very small hole,

 

I think its sad that we don't have our own JD3 section in the Vintage engine bit of this forum. I know its not really a vintage engine but in America it is a bit of a classic, and there are almost 1500 JD3s on the canals (I think).

 

......................Dave.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, trackman said:

I'm having a similar issue with my JD3, with the header overflowing & settling at a significantly lower level than I'm used to. I've been told there may be an airlock somewhere. I have yet to find evidence of that. Can't shift the bleed screw on the head, but will continue trying.

I'd be interested to hear if you find out what's going on with your engine!

 

Like I said in my post above, I think you really need to get that bleed screw working (the one on the top corner of the cylinder head by the header tank).

 

I think I have just got to the bottom of my low water level problem, about an hour ago!!!!! ......its the "radiator" cap on the header tank.

My old cap broke, the bit holding the spring rusts through every few thousand hours. Thinking back the level dropped when I put a new radiator cap on. I have just got yet another new one and although the last one was rated at 7psi its spring did feel softer than the broken one.

So, I reckon as the water expanded instead of compressing the air in the system it was just lifting the cap and going out of the overflow.

The new cap is a10psi, the engine is running right now and up to 80degrees, I put quite a lot of water in and none has come out.

 

I did try to do a calculation about water volume and expansion and would have expected some water to come out, so I also think I have some air somewhere, in addition to that in the header tank, but I think its always been that way so I am not going to worry about it, I suspect the pipe from the thermostat down to the skin tank is probably the culprit.

 

Is your radiator cap sealing ok?

 

................Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Does it look like that bleedscrew has ever been undone?  When we got our replacement engine from John Deere several of the "plugs" where done up ludicrously tight.

 

Yep, it's non virginal but I don't have a square socket, looking all over eBay for a 5/8" square socket or sump plug tool - any ideas what fits? You can't get a spanner to it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, barmyfluid said:

Yep, it's non virginal but I don't have a square socket, looking all over eBay for a 5/8" square socket or sump plug tool - any ideas what fits? You can't get a spanner to it.

I can't help, as I said I replaced mine with a BSP Hex fitting. I have searched long and hard (well eBay) for a set of "square" sockets and nobody sells them.

 

When I did the engine swap a square plug in the water pump was also a  real pig to get undone, and that had reasonable access. I spent ages with the Dremel shaving a bit off till the square end of a socket extension drive would fit it (a gentle hammer on fit).  There is just a chance you might find a standard 12 sided socket that is a very snug fit, but most smaller sockets tend to be 6 sided.

 

If you (or anyone) finds a source of "square" sockets then please let me know.

 

I suppose if you remove the air cleaner and header tank then you could get at it with a stilson wrench, bit of a workup though.

 

..............Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, dmr said:

I can't help, as I said I replaced mine with a BSP Hex fitting. I have searched long and hard (well eBay) for a set of "square" sockets and nobody sells them.

 

When I did the engine swap a square plug in the water pump was also a  real pig to get undone, and that had reasonable access. I spent ages with the Dremel shaving a bit off till the square end of a socket extension drive would fit it (a gentle hammer on fit).  There is just a chance you might find a standard 12 sided socket that is a very snug fit, but most smaller sockets tend to be 6 sided.

 

If you (or anyone) finds a source of "square" sockets then please let me know.

 

I suppose if you remove the air cleaner and header tank then you could get at it with a stilson wrench, bit of a workup though.

 

..............Dave

This is off the top of my head but how about a break adjusting spanner, remember when you use to adjust the breaks on cars or a radiator bleed screw key

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

This is off the top of my head but how about a break adjusting spanner, remember when you use to adjust the breaks on cars or a radiator bleed screw key

 

and they came in two sizes! Without removing stuff there is no spanner access,it needs a socket of some kind. I think its bigger than a radiator key, and most of them are a bit flimsy.

 

I suppose if a brake spanner did fit you could cut the end off and get it welded to a spare socket.

 

.................Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is the thing, tucked well away. Mine is now a hex plug and thermocouple rather than a square.

 

This photo makes my engine look really beaten up and full of dog hairs, its not nearly as bad as it looks, but the dog hairs are a problem. Never get a white dog.

 

...............Dave,

Head and Bleed.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, WotEver said:

So are we talking about a female socket or a male socket?

 

Sockets have to be female????, I already have a set of square section manly things 😀

 

.................Dave

6 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yup, that's the thing, but look at those prices,

 

.............Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

They look good, why is everybody better than me at searching the www?, and I still make (half) a living messing about with computers too.

 

Probably not quite long enough and as its John Deere it will be imperial.

 

..............Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Its a square drain plug key, it says so right above the picture :clapping:

 

But, yes, I've got a set of those and I do call them square sockets. So the burning question is, when referring to a socket set, is the "socket" the square 1/2" hole that the drive goes into, or the hexagon hole that the nut or bolt goes into?????    This could almost be a pumpout vs cassette ????

 

...............Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, dmr said:

Its a square drain plug key, it says so right above the picture :clapping:

 

But, yes, I've got a set of those and I do call them square sockets. So the burning question is, when referring to a socket set, is the "socket" the square 1/2" hole that the drive goes into, or the hexagon hole that the nut or bolt goes into?????    This could almost be a pumpout vs cassette ????

 

...............Dave

My definition would be that a socket is the interchangeable thing wot goes on the end of the drive. That socket can be a square male or a square female (according to my results with Google) or a conventional 6 sided hex or 12 sided (nasty) metric or imperial female, although the female bit in this case is implied and never mentioned.

 

Is that a reasonable description?

 

Shall we now talk about female plugs and male sockets on shore hook-ups? ;)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

The flow from the cylinder head should go to the lower connection on the coil, the return from the upper going back to the water pump on the engine. That way the hottest water goes into the coolest part of the calorifier, greatest heat difference gives greatest heat transfer.

No the hottest water from the top of the engine (or from the top connection on your stove back boiler) should go to the upper connection on the calorifier coil so that you heat the domestic water to the highest temperature, and the cooler water further down in the coil then heats the cooler domestic domestic water lower down the calorifier. If you put hot water in at the bottom of the coil it just gives up all its heat to the cold water and there is no heat left to raise the temperature of the domestic water higher up.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Boater Sam said:

Unusual but sounds completely workable.

The flow from the cylinder head should go to the lower connection on the coil, the return from the upper going back to the water pump on the engine. That way the hottest water goes into the coolest part of the calorifier, greatest heat difference gives greatest heat transfer. And the air is pulled up through the coil and back to the pump, gravity aiding to some extent.

I have always been taught that the hot water always goes to the top of the coil and as the water coolers it falls to the bottom of the coil to return to the engine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, barmyfluid said:

As requested:

 

 

IMG_20190108_145901.jpg.465535e399c90fbc233b0fc156515709.jpg

 

 

The top of the header tank (outside) is about level with the bottom of the 'mushroom', and the calorifier in/outs are the 2 pipes above the metal band, if I filled the tank almost to the top then they'd still be 2-6" higher than the water level. 

 

I used to have a Citroen Xantia in which the heater unit was higher than the engine and header tank. After changing the coolant you had to place a temporary raising piece on the header tank to get the coolant high enough that you could bleed the heater unit (which had its own bleed screw). Citroen made a special part which screwed onto the filler neck thread, but the Haynes manual advised that an inverted cut down 2 pint plastic milk bottle would do the trick with a rag seal between filler neck and milk bottle. All very fiddly, but it did work in the end. I don't see how the OP can bleed the calorifier coil without doing something similar.

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

And for those still stuck on the Rochdale, RDG Tools are close to the canal in Mytholmroyd.

https://www.rdgtools.co.uk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, David Mack said:

 

I used to have a Citroen Xantia in which the heater unit was higher than the engine and header tank. After changing the coolant you had to place a temporary raising piece on the header tank to get the coolant high enough that you could bleed the heater unit (which had its own bleed screw). Citroen made a special part which screwed onto the filler neck thread, but the Haynes manual advised that an inverted cut down 2 pint plastic milk bottle would do the trick with a rag seal between filler neck and milk bottle. All very fiddly, but it did work in the end. I don't see how the OP can bleed the calorifier coil without doing something similar.

And for those still stuck on the Rochdale, RDG Tools are close to the canal in Mytholmroyd.

https://www.rdgtools.co.uk

 

I still think that with a few revs the waterpump might just make enough flow to force the water through and blast the air out, and a heating coil likely does this a lot easier than a heater matrix would.   Otherwise get the engine hot to raise the pressure and then crack open a union, whilst wearing big gloves and a raincoat 😀.

 

More important, RDG looks rather good.....are they a shop where one can browse, or just a warehouse?, they are Right next to the canal and we are heading down that way soon.

 

...............Dave  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, David Mack said:

I don't see how the OP can bleed the calorifier coil without doing something similar.

Swap that highest elbow for a Tee and add a bleed screw, and raise the header tank a few inches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Swap that highest elbow for a Tee and add a bleed screw, and raise the header tank a few inches.

Raising header tank could be tricky, but it should be fairly easy to raise water level.....get spare radiator cap and disable lower seal, connect overflow pipe to suitable higher improvised container with a bit of plastic hose.

 

but I still think it will (might) self bleed.

 

................Dave

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.