Beta JD3 calorifier confusion

[barmyfluid]

Just getting to grips with my new boat, has a Beta JD3, pretty high hours (7000+) but starts very well even from cold, smokes very little and seems in good condition.

 

I'm on the hard at the moment and have been wary of running the engine for long, surveyor reckoned no longer than 15 mins, couple of the yard workers said 'until the keel tank gets hot', after an oil change today I gave it a run for an hour while keeping a close eye (well. hand, no temp gauge) on the temp, took it to 500rpm and had the travelpower switched in.

 

It's connected to a calorifier, and pretty soon you can feel the hoses to and from getting warm, then hot, though never too hot to hold), and the domestic water is getting heated. However, even after an hour, the hose to the keel tank is only warm, the keel tank not at all. The coolant header tank on the engine never gets warm on either pipe. The calorifier input/output is a bit higher (12") than the coolant tank on the engine. The brass rocker cover was pretty hot but holdable, as was the oil filter.

 

Questions are, does this sound normal for a short tickover run? I'm not sure how the calorifier/keel/thermostat setup works with this engine, especially as the tank in/outs are higher than the header, do they drain out when the engine is off, or is it another circuit? They go straight to the engine so can't see how. Does the keel cooling switch in via a thermostat like normal? Doesn't say anything in the Beta manual.

 

Thanks in advance.

[mark99]

That's a lot of engine to heat up on tickover. My guess is you needed to run it harder with prop on as well as travel power once its afloat again to get hot water to keel via the thermostat.

 

Or try find keel tank top and hopefully there will be bleed screw there to remove any air.

 

 

Edited January 5, 2019 by mark99

[dmr]

Yes, its a big and efficient DI diesel, unless you work it hard it will NEVER get hot enough to open the thermostat. Fitting a temperature gauge would be very useful. If you use it for battery charging in winter it will never get up to temperature which is not good for it. Maybe use the TravelPower to drive an immersion heater?.

For battery charging I would run at about 800 till the engine gets warmed up, then drop down to no less than 600. 500rpm is barely above tickover.

 

There should be a thin copper pipe from the thermostat housing to the header tank and I would expect some flow from this so am surprised that the header tank did not start to get warm.

 

If its been looked after then 7000 hours should not be a big concern.

 

.............Dave

[trackman]

I have a JD3 and as has been said, battery charging doesn't make it work at all. When we charge our batteries I put the Travelpower on & turn on the immersion heater. We also use an electric toaster on board & if it's opportune we put that on too. All this makes the engine do some real work, though not a lot.

If you don't do this I'd be afraid of glazed cylinder bores, and the engine certainly won't heat up fully. I've found a 70 l calorifier, from cold,

cools the engine for quite a while even with the immersion going.

[Boater Sam]

The calorifier circuit is normally the thermostat bypass circuit on the engine so that the calorifier gets hot first. Do not expect any circulation to the skin tank until it has reached the temperature at which the thermostat starts to open.

[barmyfluid]

Thanks for the replies, though I still don't understand the calorifier connections being higher than the header tank and not draining back down, unless the main cooling circuit locks this off via the thermostat and the water pump initially primes it once the thermostat opens - where does the air go though? There's nothing in the Beta manual about how it works (or draining/refilling/priming everything), and the John Deere 3029 manual I've found doesn't show calorifier connections - guessing this is a Beta modification.

 

BTW, it's got a keel tank under the engine, can't see any bleed screws on it but imagining it wouldn't need them in the same way a vertical skin tank would.

 

 

 

 

[WotEver]

Deleted ‘cos I didn’t read the post correctly. 

Edited January 7, 2019 by WotEver

[TheBiscuits]

4 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Deleted ‘cos I didn’t read the post correctly. 

Oh that's new.

 

 

 

The deleting I mean. 

 

[dmr]

I'm a bit confused by all this. Where is your calorifier to put the connections higher than the header tank?

 

A skin tank on the floor is ok, who made your boat? I suspect its a ColeCraft?????

 

The calorifier feed comes off the engine block, at the rear above the gearbox on the older engines, and I think on the side on the newer engines. It returns into the top of the water pump which is quite high so I'm surprised the calorifier is higher than this. This system with the skin tank on the floor should be largely self bleeding, but there is a bleed point on the cylinder head that you really should bleed, this is on the injector side at the gearbox end.

The John Deere manual relates to Tractors, generator sets, and general industrial use. John Deere don't know what a narrowboat is so don't expect any boaty stuff in their manuals ?.

 

.................Dave

[WotEver]

21 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

Oh that's new.

 

 

 

The deleting I mean. 

 

 

[barmyfluid]

1 minute ago, dmr said:

I'm a bit confused by all this. Where is your calorifier to put the connections higher than the header tank?

 

A skin tank on the floor is ok, who made your boat? I suspect its a ColeCraft?????

 

The calorifier feed comes off the engine block, at the rear above the gearbox on the older engines, and I think on the side on the newer engines. It returns into the top of the water pump which is quite high so I'm surprised the calorifier is higher than this. This system with the skin tank on the floor should be largely self bleeding, but there is a bleed point on the cylinder head that you really should bleed, this is on the injector side at the gearbox end.

The John Deere manual relates to Tractors, generator sets, and general industrial use. John Deere don't know what a narrowboat is so don't expectI was a bit worried about was  any boaty stuff in their manuals ?.

 

Brilliant Dave, thanks a lot - yes, it's a Colecraft, built 2005, there is a calorifier feed coming straight out of the side of the block and back in over where I guessed the water pump is at the right hand side near the exhaust stack. Will check the bleed point tomorrow, there's a cover over all of it at the mo.

 

The calorifier tank is bolted to the wall, and the in/outs are higher than the level in the header tank - I don't even know what the level is supposed to be in there, it's about 1/2 full right now, but if I filled it right up the connectors on the calorifier would still be higher by a good few inch.

 

Could there ever be a situation in which there's fluid in the calorifier circuit, fluid in the header tank but an empty skin tank circuit? It was sat on brokerage for quite a bit and probably never reached thermostat opening temperature for a long time - there was also a fair bit of water in the engine room bilge with ingress as yet unknown....

[dmr]

Your skin tank is under the engine so as long as there is water in the header tank then the engine and skin tank must be ok (full).

I don't believe that the calorifier really is higher than the engine !!!!!!  Its not the Top of the calorifier that matters but the highest point of the heating coil in the calorifier. I assume your calorifier is a vertical type and the heating loops are right at the bottom?? if the calorifier loops Are higher than the header tank then they will drain out when you take off the header tank cap and never fill up again.

 

What is the water level in the header tank? Can you do a photo of engine and calorifier?

 

The thermostat should have a little bleed hole in it so even if the thermostat never opens the levels should sort out, and also any air in the skin tank can come up the other pipe into the header tank Are the pipes fromt he engine to the skin tank done in rubber or copper?, you can assess the flow just by touching them.

 

...............Dave

[barmyfluid]

50 minutes ago, dmr said:

Your skin tank is under the engine so as long as there is water in the header tank then the engine and skin tank must be ok (full).

I don't believe that the calorifier really is higher than the engine !!!!!!  Its not the Top of the calorifier that matters but the highest point of the heating coil in the calorifier. I assume your calorifier is a vertical type and the heating loops are right at the bottom?? if the calorifier loops Are higher than the header tank then they will drain out when you take off the header tank cap and never fill up again.

 

What is the water level in the header tank? Can you do a photo of engine and calorifier?

 

The thermostat should have a little bleed hole in it so even if the thermostat never opens the levels should sort out, and also any air in the skin tank can come up the other pipe into the header tank Are the pipes fromt he engine to the skin tank done in rubber or copper?, you can assess the flow just by touching them.

 

...............Dave

I'm not on the boat till tomorrow for a photo and double check, but the calorifier inputs on the tank (vertical, dunno what the internals look like) are about level with the top of the engine, maybe a little higher. However, the coolant level in the header is about half full (btw, what level do you full you're to? Says nothing in the beta manual), so definitely a good few inches lower, and that's the confusion - surely they'd just drain out like you say! But they're the only bit that I can actually verify are working, both getting hot, domestic water warming ok.... Everything else is pretty much cold after the hours run i mentioned in the op, header tank, copper pipes off it., Oil cooler.. One of the keel tank inputs ever so slightly warm.

 

Btw, have you still got the beta header tank mounted on the gearbox end?

[Boater Sam]

Your header tank or expansion tank as it really is, is not the same water as in the body of the calorifier but only in the coils inside which are horizontal at the level that they go in and out at on the side. 

It all sounds perfectly normal to me, as long as the circuit engine to coils is full of water it will stay full, the header tank vents any air out that's why its higher than the coils and the engine.

[ditchcrawler]

11 hours ago, dmr said:

 

I don't believe that the calorifier really is higher than the engine !!!!!!  Its not the Top of the calorifier that matters but the highest point of the heating coil in the calorifier. I assume your calorifier is a vertical type and the heating loops are right at the bottom?? if the calorifier loops Are higher than the header tank then they will drain out when you take off the header tank cap and never fill up again.

 

Mine is higher and the water doesn't drain out when I take the header cap off. It does if you drain the block down so air can enter the pipes leading to the calorifier. I did put a bleed valve at the highest point but it doesn't seem necessary. So yes it will work OK if its higher  

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by ditchcrawler

[dmr]

9 hours ago, barmyfluid said:

I'm not on the boat till tomorrow for a photo and double check, but the calorifier inputs on the tank (vertical, dunno what the internals look like) are about level with the top of the engine, maybe a little higher. However, the coolant level in the header is about half full (btw, what level do you full you're to? Says nothing in the beta manual), so definitely a good few inches lower, and that's the confusion - surely they'd just drain out like you say! But they're the only bit that I can actually verify are working, both getting hot, domestic water warming ok.... Everything else is pretty much cold after the hours run i mentioned in the op, header tank, copper pipes off it., Oil cooler.. One of the keel tank inputs ever so slightly warm.

 

Btw, have you still got the beta header tank mounted on the gearbox end?

 

If the calorifier coil "in and out" really are above the level of the water in the header tank then its not good. Can you lower the calorifier?  But this is all very odd, the calorifier is a big heavy item and would normally be sat on the floor, not fixed to the wall.  Its possible that there is enough "push" from the engine water pump to get water up into the calorifier and shift most of the air but this is far from ideal, and as you say the water might drain down everytime you stop the engine (it probably wont, but will still be a source of air lock issues when you change the antifreeze).

 

Feeling the pipes whilst the engine is running will tell you if you have water flowing, they should be too hot to touch when the engine is up to temperature, it should be running at about 80 degrees.

 

Beta supply the engine, I think this includes the  calorifier "fittings" but the rest is down to the boat builder so will not be in the Engine Manual. You can download a more general manual for engine installation from the Beta website, I cant remember if it includes any calorifier stuff.

 

My header tank is at the gearbox end but its probably a bit different to yours as our original engine was one of the very early ones and has a tank fabricated by beta (it looks quite good) but they now use a proper cast tank.

 

Water level in the header tank is a tricky one, especially if your heating coil is draining down. There should be a little overflow on the filer neck? I plumb this into a bottle via a plastic pipe. I use a plastic coke bottle, only a Kelvin is allowed to use a glass whiskey bottle ?   I occasionally fill the tank almost full (to about where the copper bypass pipe goes in) then any expansion loss goes into the bottle so the engine establishes its own level.   It used to end up about an inch and a half down but for some reason its going a lot lower of late...I am trying to work out whats going on right now.

[dmr]

35 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Mine is higher and the water doesn't drain out when I take the header cap off. It does if you drain the block down so air can enter the pipes leading to the calorifier. I did put a bleed valve at the highest point but it doesn't seem necessary. So yes it will work OK if its higher

Ive been trying to think this through and agree that it will almost certainly not drain down so the only issue is getting it full after an antifreeze change. I remember doing an experiment on my old Morris Oxford whilst trying to diagnose a cooling system problem, I had a vertical hose on the water pump outlet/radiator hose and with a few revs it could easily raise the water four feet.

 

I would expect this sort of pressure/flow would shift any air from the calorifier coils quite quickly though a bleed valve would let you confirm this. Ive just been trying to bleed the second coil on my calorifier and the flow from the Alde pump is pathetic and shifts no air at all, I had to install three separate bleed points to sort it out.

 

I still don't like the idea of a wall mounted calorifier though, but then ours is absolutely huge..

 

...............Dave

[ditchcrawler]

46 minutes ago, dmr said:

Ive been trying to think this through and agree that it will almost certainly not drain down so the only issue is getting it full after an antifreeze change. I remember doing an experiment on my old Morris Oxford whilst trying to diagnose a cooling system problem, I had a vertical hose on the water pump outlet/radiator hose and with a few revs it could easily raise the water four feet.

 

I would expect this sort of pressure/flow would shift any air from the calorifier coils quite quickly though a bleed valve would let you confirm this. Ive just been trying to bleed the second coil on my calorifier and the flow from the Alde pump is pathetic and shifts no air at all, I had to install three separate bleed points to sort it out.

 

I still don't like the idea of a wall mounted calorifier though, but then ours is absolutely huge..

 

...............Dave

The reason my calorifier is at that height is so that I have direct thermo syphon from the Dickinson for hot water.

[dmr]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

The reason my calorifier is at that height is so that I have direct thermo syphon from the Dickinson for hot water.

That's interesting, I thought they were only space heaters, did not realise they did hot water, I wonder if they could drive a little radiator or two (with a little pump) ?

 

I will have a look on the www, quite fancy replacing the Alde at some stage to gently heat the back of the boat.

 

...............Dave

[Boater Sam]

Unusual but sounds completely workable.

The flow from the cylinder head should go to the lower connection on the coil, the return from the upper going back to the water pump on the engine. That way the hottest water goes into the coolest part of the calorifier, greatest heat difference gives greatest heat transfer. And the air is pulled up through the coil and back to the pump, gravity aiding to some extent.

[dmr]

10 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

Unusual but sounds completely workable.

The flow from the cylinder head should go to the lower connection on the coil, the return from the upper going back to the water pump on the engine. That way the hottest water goes into the coolest part of the calorifier, greatest heat difference gives greatest heat transfer. And the air is pulled up through the coil and back to the pump, gravity aiding to some extent.

On the JD3 the calorifier feed actually  comes off the block rather than the head. I have always thought this is not optimum but have not really thought it through.

 

On the early JD3s the feed was from the end of the block (furthest from water pump) but at some stage Beta moved it to the side of the block because "it works better". Never quite understood that either.

 

I note that if we have a shower with the engine running that the engine temperature drops by about 10 degrees, probably not absolutely ideal for the engine, but does demonstrate that running a hot tap really does help to keep an engine cool.

 

...................Dave

[Boater Sam]

12 minutes ago, dmr said:

On the JD3 the calorifier feed actually  comes off the block rather than the head. I have always thought this is not optimum but have not really thought it through.

 

On the early JD3s the feed was from the end of the block (furthest from water pump) but at some stage Beta moved it to the side of the block because "it works better". Never quite understood that either.

 

I note that if we have a shower with the engine running that the engine temperature drops by about 10 degrees, probably not absolutely ideal for the engine, but does demonstrate that running a hot tap really does help to keep an engine cool.

 

...................Dave

You have very good circulation to the calorifier and a decent coil surface area inside then.

[dmr]

4 minutes ago, Boater Sam said:

You have very good circulation to the calorifier and a decent coil surface area inside then.

 

I hope so. The boat is now 18 years old and has always been a full time liveaboard so I fear at some stage the insides of the calorifier will get all furred up. Next time I need to change the immersion heater I suppose I should try and have a look.

 

..................Dave

[Boater Sam]

Depends where you regularly fill up. London is as hard as bricks, Manchester is so soft it dissolves lead. Most of the scale falls to the bottom anyway.

[ditchcrawler]

55 minutes ago, dmr said:

That's interesting, I thought they were only space heaters, did not realise they did hot water, I wonder if they could drive a little radiator or two (with a little pump) ?

 

I will have a look on the www, quite fancy replacing the Alde at some stage to gently heat the back of the boat.

 

...............Dave

I have a towel rail in series with the calorifier and the inlet to the stove to act as a safety heat dump and a radiator right at the bows supplied by the top coil of the colorifier with a pump.