Gas appliances and BSS

[blackrose]

I've got an instant Valliant gas water heater that doesn't want to light anymore. Can't even light the pilot light with a long cooker lighter. It's on the same line as my gas fridge and that's fine. I've got a feeling it might involve more time, trouble and money more to fix the heater than just replace it and I could do with a better Morco model anyway.

 

The question is that my BSS is due, so if it doesn't work and can't be inspected is that an automatic fail? Should I just remove it and blank off the pipe if I don't have time to fit a new heater? I think it's 3/8" pipe, what's the best fitting to blank it off?

Edited June 29, 2018 by blackrose

[Chewbacka]

It should fail as BSS section 8.8.1requires that you light all lpg burners on their max setting at the same time.  If it doesn’t work I think you have a problem.  The BSS allows a short length of spur to have a stop end, but if your spur is long you may need to cap it off close to the main supply pipe.  I would talk to your BSS examiner and see what is required to pass.

[MtB]

This is a great example of how the BSS has it's head up right up it's arse.

 

People die regularly for want of a working CO alarm yet yet an non-working appliance is an automatic fail even though it is demonstrably safe. Even capping it off in the wrong way is a fail.

 

How many people a year die from spurs capped off to far away from the tee? 

 

None have ever, I'd wager. 

[rusty69]

3 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

People die regularly for want of a working CO alarm yet yet an non-working appliance is an automatic fail even though it is demonstrably safe. Even capping it off in the wrong way is a fail.

Even if it can be isolated, its a fail? 

[blackrose]

I has it's own isolator but I don't think that's a substitute for capping off the pipe is it?

[alan_fincher]

33 minutes ago, blackrose said:

I has it's own isolator but I don't think that's a substitute for capping off the pipe is it?

No it isn't.

 

If it is connected, it must be possible to light it and do a spill test on it.

 

I'm not sure how an examiner might view it if you disconnect and cap the pipe, but leave it in situ.  Technically, I guess that should be fine, but they may well be tempted to think you will reconnect it once they have left!

 

EDIT

 

And as has been said the BSS specifies that any capped spur can only be short.  Don't forget it must also meet the requirements about being fully supported, so you may need to add an extra clip or two once it has a loose capped end.

Edited June 29, 2018 by alan_fincher

[blackrose]

Thanks. Sounds like it might just be easier to replace the heater before the test.

 

I need to find something with approximately the same dimensions and connection locations as my Vaillant Geyser MAG9/1XZ.

 

I don't suppose anyone knows of a suitable make/model? Which is the best Morco heater? (Non -room sealed)

Edited June 30, 2018 by blackrose

[alan_fincher]

AFAIK ignoring the room sealed model, there are only 2 Morco sizes, the DH61 and a much migger model, the G11.

 

Unless your Vaillant is untypically large for a boat, the usual model would be the DH61.  (Note there is a DH61E with battery ignition, or a DH61B with Piezzo ignition, but the size and everything else is the same.)

 

There was recently a supply problem with Morcos, but people were reporting this as resolved.

 

However I'm even more confused now as the Morco Products website is now declaring both DH61 models as obsolete!

http://www.morcoproducts.co.uk/stock-5/Water_Heaters.html

 

If you can find one, it might be a good idea to grab it quickly!

[MtB]

2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

If you can find one, it might be a good idea to grab it quickly!

 

I'd be inclined to agree with this advice as the D61 is no longer showing zero stock on the Midland Chandlers site, it has been completely removed from their listings. They list no equivalent product for people wanting a Morco. 

 

Hamiltons still claim to have some though, for £277. Here:

https://gasproducts.co.uk/morco-d61b-lpg-caravan-marine-gas-water-heater.html

 

A quick scan at ebay also throws up some options:

 

1) D61s for £244

 

2) The Forcali 6L which comes with a bracket kit to make replacement of a Morco D61 a straight swap, apparently. Also has automatic ignition and no pilot light.

 

 

 

3) The Cointra 5 litre, which makes all the same claims as the Forcali, but is much more expensive

 

4) The Bosch W1359 which is a similar shape to the Morco and also has electronic ignition and no pilot light 

 

 

The trouble with the Forcali and the Cointra I suspect, will be spares. Ebay lists quite a few for the Cointra from Spanish sellers, but nothing for the Forcali. Parts for the Bosch seem avaiable too.

 

Interestingly the Bosch and the Cointra are distributed by Arleigh, who I believe now own Midland Chandlers. 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by Mike the Boilerman
spellin'

[blackrose]

Thanks Alan and Mike.

 

I checked all the Morco D61 dimensions and connections in the product manual online and it seems to be very similar to my existing heater, so I've just ordered a D61E from O'Leary Motorhomes near Beverley for £269 which includes the delivery charge. I could have got a D61B from ebay for £244 including delivery, but I've never really got on with piezo ignition and for me it's probably worth the extra £25 for electronic ignition.

 

If the pictures are representative the B model has a nasty sticker on the front which makes it look a bit ugly. The E model doesn't show that in the pictures on several websites.

 

 

Edited June 30, 2018 by blackrose

[MtB]

I have the E model in one of my boats and I too, much prefer it.

 

You still have to hold the knob in <snigger> while the thermocouple heats up however.

[blackrose]

In my experience Piezo is just a bit hit and miss, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I have electronic ignition on my new gas fridge and it seems to ignite easier than the old piezo model. 

[system 4-50]

The label on my D61B just peeled off?

[blackrose]

Ok, that's good to know. You know how they don't sometimes on different products. You try to peel them off and they just tear and the whole thing's a mess. 

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, blackrose said:

Ok, that's good to know. You know how they don't sometimes on different products. You try to peel them off and they just tear and the whole thing's a mess. 

 

I have that big silver label on the Morco in this boat I'm on now. Just tried to peel it off and mine is separating and leaving the nasty mess you fear!

 

The pic on the right of the E version isn't right though. My 'E' has a button on the front just to the left of the two knobs which you press to start the sparking. This button is missing from the Morco in the photo.

[alan_fincher]

I have a similar label, though ours is on the side, (DH61E).

 

A tentative attempt to peel it suggested it would be a bad idea.

 

I really wish manufacturers wouldn't do this kind of thing.

Although I paid for the battery operated ignition, I have never found it a huge success.  I simply use a cheap butane powered lighter through the hole on the front.

[alan_fincher]

36 minutes ago, blackrose said:

In my experience Piezo is just a bit hit and miss, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I have electronic ignition on my new gas fridge and it seems to ignite easier than the old piezo model. 

I spent some time trying to work out why a former Electolux / Dometic gas fridge was hard to light.

 

What I found was......

 

1) There was gas to the burner all the time, as soon as you depressed the knob.
2) The piezzo ignition produced a spark every time it was pressed - no intermittentcy at all.

3) If you detached the burner housing from the flue tube, and let it hang down on the solid pipework an inch or so below it, (so nothing was enclosing the burner or any flame), it lit almost 100% first time.
4) But as soon as you reintroduced it into the flue tube, and secured in its proper position, it then only lit intermittently.

When alight it was burning with a good blue flame with no yellow.  There were no cobwebs, insects, rust, etc on the burner, and the flue tube was quite clear.

My conclusion was that having it enclosed produces a mix of gas and air that is much harder to light, than when it was out in the open.  (You often get the explosive "whoomph", but the result of that is that if it has lit briefly, it goes out again.

 

I think it is perhaps just down to poor design, rather than a fault on a particular example.

 

The newer, (and bigger), one on our latest boat is better than the old one, but can still be temperamental.

[blackrose]

10 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Although I paid for the battery operated ignition, I have never found it a huge success.  I simply use a cheap butane powered lighter through the hole on the front.

 

That's what I've been doing on my Valliant

[MtB]

40 minutes ago, blackrose said:

 

That's what I've been doing on my Valliant

 

Why not fix the Vaillant, out of interest?

 

Its probably just a blocked pilot jet.

[blackrose]

It's my secondary hot water source but it's never really run very well and I'd rather just replace it.

 

It's always been difficult to light, difficult to run when it does work and the water is either scalding or freezing

Edited June 30, 2018 by blackrose

[blackrose]

This is the gas fitting supplied with the Morco. Is it the done thing to rely on a fibre washer? It goes onto that connection so there's not much I can do about it. Also the fitting is for 15mm pipe and mine is 3/8". Can I get this fitting in 3/8"? I think the fibre washer side of the fitting is 1"? Can anyone confirm? I don't need the isolator as I already have a dedicated isolator in the line to the heater, so a straight coupling is fine. 

 

Edited July 3, 2018 by blackrose

[MtB]

The fibre washer is fine and an industry standard method of making a gas connection.

 

You're lucky to get a valve at all, they never used to supply them!

 

The outlet of the valve looks to me like 1/2" BSP parallel. You could buy a 3/8" compression x 1/2" female BSP adaptor from BES or ebay.

 

 

[blackrose]

Thanks, would you use Clessetite or some other liquid ptfe sealant on the washer? I guess not? 

[OldGoat]

Umm - isn't that a (an inexpensive) water type fitting?

Gas fittings are better made...

[blackrose]

20 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

Umm - isn't that a (an inexpensive) water type fitting?

Gas fittings are better made...

No it's a gas fitting. 

Edited July 3, 2018 by blackrose