DIY boats

[carlt]

I prefer the word "Paloma" but can't have one anymore.

Why can't you have one anymore? I understood that they were no longer banned, just frowned upon.

[Callunna]

In general, women buy the boats ! If it looks pretty, a few tiles in the kitchen with fitted units and a fancy worktop plus a posh looking bathroom with proper looking WC, she'll be happy and therefore hubby agrees to buy. He wants a boat without fighting the missus.

 

The fact the hull is well constructed with strong scantlings etc doesn't matter 'cos that's not understood. If the hull is prettily painted - that matters.

 

Now then Jack, it's a good job we're in cyberspace cos I would have given you a good whallop round your luggoyls after reading your post - but then I decided you were only having a laugh so I'll let you off

 

I'm a person of the female persuasion, together with being in the classification of "newbie residential boater" but I do know a decent hull from a leaky bucket. And if I'm not sure, I'll call upon the advice of an expert.

 

We're looking at a secondhand boat with a superb DIY fit-out but nasturtiums had been cast on the quality of the hull (by a third party) so we had it checked out by an experienced boatbuilder and marine engineer. He's happy with it, so that'll do for me. I suppose it's horses for courses.

 

If you don't want to spend a lot of money on a car you might buy a Fiesta but if you're loaded you might go for a Jag. They both do a similar job (ie get you from A to Bee) but one will be more reliable and probably last longer. (I refer to the Fiesta, of course...)

[-Jack-]

......................... so we had it checked out by an experienced boatbuilder and marine engineer. He's happy with it, so that'll do for me. ........................................

 

Hi Calluna,

 

You're doing exactly the right thing. You've very wisely had your potential purchase professionally 'checked out' plus you are a member of this forum. This puts you way ahead of the 'average punter'.

 

You're quite right the cost/value of your vessel does not affect the wonderful views and lifestyle on the cut .

 

Your boat will always be a detached residence with ever changing spectacular views - that's worth millions of £s; whatever the cost of the boat .

 

Good luck with your new lifestyle and I hope we meet one day - mind you I'll cover my "luggoyls"

[John Orentas]

Let's hope the 'bunch of clowns' keep up their efforts. The WCBS may not meet with your approval John but I doubt if they're aware of, or care about, your opinion. They may have overstretched themselves in the number of historic nb's they're able to bring to restore to your exacting standards (I know how they feel), but they are doing something worthwhile and helping save our heritage.

How about you?

 

 

If we have to depend on those characters to 'save our heritage' then God help us. If they manage to repair that boat and get it into a reasonable condition I will do something drastic on the town hall steps. A little more than hysterical enthusiasm is required to repair wooden boats or anything else, like initially learning of a few basic manual skills. The entire scene looked like something out of Wallace and Grommet.

Edited July 15, 2007 by John Orentas

[Chris Pink]

I was watching a bunch of clowns at Portland Basin last weekend trying to re-float a decomposed wooden working boat, Wooden Boat Society I think. They turned up with two petrol driven pumps, neither of which worked and they ended up recruiting a fire engine an crew to do it for them. One bloke was in the water (not the cleanest place that basin) stuffing bedding into holes in the planking you could nearly climb through.

 

They eventually got it floating but who knows how long for.

 

Well then maybe if you can match your opinion with skills you should have gone and helped them.

 

We would not be using the canal system at all at all if 'bunches of clowns' didn't put passion and enthusiasm into the saving and restoration of the canals and the boats that used them. The fact that not all of it succeeds is no reason not to try.

 

I am not quite sure why you feel the need to be so offensive about people. I would be interested to know whether you could refloat an historic boat or restore a derelict lock without getting filthy in the process.

[John Orentas]

Hi Chris.

 

I suspect you may be wearing your rose tinted glasses, do you have an image of a bunch of robust, young, horny handed sons of toil, happily engaged in their honest work, transforming an old worn out boat into a sound craft with their skills, singing in the Pennine sunshine.. The truth I am afraid is very far from that idyllic image.

 

Whether I have the necessary skills or not has nothing to do with the matter.. The fact is that these same sad boats have been in the same place for a decade and looking sadder by the day, no restoration of any kind is taking place, equally the same feckless crowd of young chaps have been hanging around for a similar period, a can of beer in one hand and some form of roll-up in the other.

 

This is the very same spot where the famous 'Big Dig' took place all those years ago, that very positive image of the canals that was promoted then is being 'blown out of the water' by these characters.

[blackrose]

Re. hulls, we went for a boat with a good (Measham) hull. Agree with other posters, the hull is the boat, really don't understand those who go for cheap hulls. You can rip a fit out and change it easily, the hull is impossible to improve, really.

 

Well, since everyone seems to be in agreement with each other I'm going to play devil's advocate here (or just confess that I don't understand the premise of this thread).

 

Firstly, who are these "crap hulls" built by exactly? For what most of us do (ditch crawling), most hulls are perfectly adequate. Liverpool Boats are generally considered to be budget hulls but as far as I am concerned this is due to the price, not the build quality which is fine. Sure they make mistakes but that's usually with their fit outs, and many other builders make mistakes too. A neighbour with a Measham hull told me he found lumps of filler coming off in locks, but that's just finishing and wouldn't affect the integrity of the hull. Basically most slab sided boats are just metal boxes with pointy ends. Some look better than others but as far as I am concerned if you want to talk about hydrodynamics and handling don't talk about canal boats.

Edited November 8, 2007 by blackrose

[Chris Pink]

Hi Chris.

 

I suspect you may be wearing your rose tinted glasses, do you have an image of a bunch of robust, young, horny handed sons of toil, happily engaged in their honest work, transforming an old worn out boat into a sound craft with their skills, singing in the Pennine sunshine..

 

Hi John

 

I can quite appreciate your turn of phrase but i reiterate, if you think you can do better, get in there, join the WCBS, transform it into your vision of a dynamic and successful operation.

 

The serious point behind this discussion is what you believe should be done with these boats and others like them. I assume you don't want them. Should they be destroyed? I was at Gloucester Archive recently and the boats in the museum there are beginning to look sorry for themselves because of lack of funding. Should these be destroyed also?

 

These boats are in one place because that is the only place they can be left or stored. They will either be restored, one by one, by someone with a lot of motivation and energy (read young) or they will become un-sustainable.

 

It is also important to note that young people with not much money who aspire to boating life in one of its many forms cannot buy a Liverpool boat and paint it shiny red and that a run down old wooden boat that no-one else wants maybe the only in for them. Some will succeed, some will fail, only a brave or foolish man would predict which. I think either way they deserve our support or, at the very least, our tolerance.

[anthony]

Hi Chris.I suspect you may be wearing your rose tinted glasses, do you have an image of a bunch of robust, young, horny handed sons of toil, happily engaged in their honest work, transforming an old worn out boat into a sound craft with their skills, singing in the Pennine sunshine.. The truth I am afraid is very far from that idyllic image.Whether I have the necessary skills or not has nothing to do with the matter.. The fact is that these same sad boats have been in the same place for a decade and looking sadder by the day, no restoration of any kind is taking place, equally the same feckless crowd of young chaps have been hanging around for a similar period, a can of beer in one hand and some form of roll-up in the other.This is the very same spot where the famous 'Big Dig' took place all those years ago, that very positive image of the canals that was promoted then is being 'blown out of the water' by these characters.

Not to mention that moorings are needed by functional boats.I know after working across the way in the boatyard that the people doing this work are not skilled wooden boat builders.When is someone actually going to lay down some hard facts detailing what makes a good quality hull? They are all flat bottomed skips at the end of the day being dragged through the water.If you want to talk about hull performance then a Springer will move better through the water than any bespoke flat bottom skip! Does that mean Springers are a better boat? Edited November 8, 2007 by anthony

[Lady Muck]

Ummm I wasn't thinking about hydrodynamics or handling, difficult to discuss that on a nb, coz it's basically a big long floaty tin bath. But I like my hull, it's not a budget hull, clearly it didn't cost a budget price, the welds are nice and clean, I love the lines, our boat has character (IMO) and it has a nice thick bottom plate, which is just as well, seeing as we spend so much time aground. *sigh*

 

I'm not the sort of boater who sneers at Liverpool Boats - if they made sh*t hulls they wouldn't sell so many or still be in business, would've thought that would be obvious.

[John Orentas]

Sorry Chris, don't have any answers, yes I have been to Gloucester too but in the depression stakes I would back Ellesmere Port, last time I went there I came out wanting to slash my wrists, boats that 25 years ago on my first visit were prime examples are now in a very sorry state.. I am afraid to say that this goes further than neglect, the museum people had or have a duty of care for their exhibits, what has happened there is close to criminal, yes they look after the structures of the docks and there are nice new offices and a cafe but that is not enough.

 

Really this takes us back to our young friends at Portland Basin, it is very sad but only a limited number of old boats can be preserved, like old horses we must reluctantly let them go, as a society just how much money are we prepared to spend.. Yes I am afraid it does come down to money and like so many other things with limited durability we can only preserve the best and put the rest of them down to history. But let's get those idiots out of the basin, they are doing nobody any good.

[PaddingtonBear]

I think that Gary's suspicion is correct but this will only apply in the short run. The flim flam artists that buy c**p shells and then 'get them up for the eye' will of course get more profit especially as any enforcement of trading standards is non - existent. It is always the case that the most profit is made from peoples stupidity, you only have to read some of the posts on this and other forums to see that. In the longer term, perhaps when the boat comes up for sale and its general shoddiness is more apparent it will not find a buyer so reddily. By that time of course the 'boatbuilders' will have taken their ill gotten gains and be living it up on a gin palace on the Med. As with all things you get what you pay for

[Tony Brooks]

I have my own opinions on this but what do you think.

 

If you were starting a DIY boat project would you spend lots of time on a top notch fit out but base it on a really crap hull?

 

If you were buying a used boat that had a fantastic fit out but a crap hull would that influence your decision to buy?

 

I know these seem strange questions but we supply kit to a lot of DIY/semi professional builders and it is a subject often raised by many that is hull quality that important and does saving money there makes sense.

 

I think my views on this are increasingly out of date with the modern DIY market.

 

 

My views are, of course, coloured by experience.

 

I just can not understand the need for welded on washers and fancy welded "trim" details and much more that so often seem to go along with "top quality" hulls.

 

As far as the hull is concerned I would buy one from a long established mid range builder that happened to meet my requirements - e.g. very small front "spray deck" so a small cratch can be set a long way forward. Smallish front cockpit and so on. Reasonably flat cabin sides, but most of all good welds. Mr Cole springs to mind, but there are others.

 

As I know I could never do a fantastic fitout I am quiet happy to accept functional and adequate. I suppose this is why I am more than happy with an ex hireboat.

 

I can see that if I ever had a bespoke boat built there would be many ructions because I would demand easy access to ALL the services, wiring, water and gas. None of the run it all under the floor and behind glued panels stuff the quality boys often seem to produce for the sake of good looks. Likewise I can not understand why so many new boats seem to be built with such small radiators that will never do a proper job on a cold evening. And then there is the problem of jamming the engine so tight against the bulkhead one can not get proper access to it for maintenance - oh and the tendency to stuff batteries where they are all but impossible to service, but they do look neat.

 

New boaters seem mesmerised by flashy fitouts (as do the magazines) and have lots of time to ponder their mistake at leisure, so crap hull and flashy fitout must win most times.

[carlt]

Not to mention that moorings are needed by functional boats.I know after working across the way in the boatyard that the people doing this work are not skilled wooden boat builders.When is someone actually going to lay down some hard facts detailing what makes a good quality hull? They are all flat bottomed skips at the end of the day being dragged through the water.If you want to talk about hull performance then a Springer will move better through the water than any bespoke flat bottom skip! Does that mean Springers are a better boat?

Err..

1) If these boats are licensed, insured and with a valid safety certificate then it is none of your or anybody elses business what they do with their boats.

2) there are plenty of boats, sat in marinas that never move. Do you aim the same criticism at them? If so then; if these boats are licensed, insured, etc. etc.

3) I can't vouch for everyone at the WCBS because they have many volunteers, of varying skills but Chris Leah is a skilled wooden boat builder with many years experience and his hull work is excellent.

 

Just because someone who knows nothing about wooden hulls (I seem to remember one of them advocating grp sheathing for a wooden hull, not so long ago) can't see beyond a paint job doesn't make these boats worthless.

 

Just because our ideas of what makes a beautiful boat are different doesn't make those ideas any more or less valid. If you think boats shouldn't be on the canals because you don't like them then that makes you a snob.

[MartinClark]

it is very sad but only a limited number of old boats can be preserved, like old horses we must reluctantly let them go, as a society just how much money are we prepared to spend.. Yes I am afraid it does come down to money and like so many other things with limited durability we can only preserve the best and put the rest of them down to history.

 

I can see where you're coming from with this, John, but is this really the best viewpoint to take?

 

Should, for example, only a limited number of old canals be preserved, and the rest reluctantly let go? Should we preserve the best canals and put those with limited durability down to history?

 

Would you be prepared to see the Rochdale Canal closed down permanently on that basis?

[John Orentas]

I can see where you're coming from with this, John, but is this really the best viewpoint to take?

 

Should, for example, only a limited number of old canals be preserved, and the rest reluctantly let go? Should we preserve the best canals and put those with limited durability down to history?

 

Would you be prepared to see the Rochdale Canal closed down permanently on that basis?

 

 

I really can't see how you can make any kind of comparison, we have the canals now largely because over the years it has been easier and more economic simply to leave them alone, if like the railways they had an intrinsic value with iron rails and other stuff which could readily be lifted and taken away, leaving land that could easily be sold off, that is what would have happened.

 

A wooden boat on the other hand is transitory to say the least and like any timber structure it will have a very limited life, in fact if wooden craft could be made to last as long as a steel one with similar build and maintenance costs I think a lot of us would have them today, certainly I would.

Edited November 10, 2007 by John Orentas

[carlt]

I really can't see how you can make any kind of comparison, we have the canals now largely because over the years it has been easier and more economic simply to leave them alone, if like the railways they had an intrinsic value with iron rails and other stuff which could readily be lifted and taken away, leaving land that could easily be sold off, that is what would have happened.

 

A wooden boat on the other hand is transitory to say the least and like any timber structure it will have a very limited life, in fact if wooden craft could be made to last as long as a steel one with similar build and maintenance costs I think a lot of us would have them today, certainly I would.

It's still none of your business what other people do with their private property, John.

 

It's pure snobbery. You do not have a monopoly on taste and, just because you cannot see the beauty in a wooden boat and lack the vision to see the potential in one needing work does not mean you can insult those that can.

[Chertsey]

I'd rather be looking at the boats in Portland Basin, even as they are, sad as it is, than a marina full of shiny boring tubs.

 

It is quite horrifyingly true, with some (most?) people, it's not even that they see cheap as a trade-off with beautiful (that would be fair enough), but they don't even recognise the difference between beautiful and ugly when they see it.

 

Back to the original point, a hull can be well made and good quality and still be reasonably priced, but a really beautifully shaped boat will cost more because more work has to go into it - and I'm not thinking of cosmetic fripperies, but the basic steelwork.

 

edited to add

Oh yes, and it's complete bollocks that women have any less idea than men about what to look for, or that they're more easily won over by superficial flashiness (tho admittedly for the blokes it's electronic flashiness rather than nice tiles that does the trick)

Edited November 11, 2007 by WarriorWoman

[Lady Muck]

I think boats are like babies - everyone thinks their boat is the most beautiful.

[Chertsey]

I think boats are like babies - everyone thinks their boat is the most beautiful.

 

I've seen boats that are more beautiful than mine (sigh) at least on the outside, but either too old or too expensive. Unnaturally, I never found either of my babies particularly beautiful. Sweet, loveable etc etc, yes, but the first one (he's 22 today) looked like ET. They were beautiful toddlers though.... and now they're handsome chaps. But I'm being perfectly objective of course.

[Radiomariner]

I think boats are like babies - everyone thinks their boat is the most beautiful.

 

 

Or partners. SWMBO was beautiful when I met her 43 years ago. Like a boat, I know all her good and bad points, the exterior is a bit worn, does not work quite as well as used to but to me, still as beautiful.

 

Eddited for a typo. One day I will enter a post without spelling errors or typos!

Edited November 12, 2007 by Radiomariner

[Hairy-Neil]

....we have the canals now largely because over the years it has been easier and more economic simply to leave them alone,....

 

and the bearded and wooly hatted enthusiasts (much like those now at Portland Basin) that carried out work on the Peak Forrest canal amid threats from BW to sue for trespass played no part in the process whatsoever.....

 

Your claim might hold for the rural lengths John, but what about the Rochdale 9. Would that route have ever been restored had Rodwell Tower been built as originally planned? I think not.

 

 

c.40 years ago, BR transferred to diesel traction on the railways and sold 200+ locomotives to a scrap metal merchant in Barry, South Wales. Fate decreed that they would survive the cutters torch till more enlightened times when their true worth was discovered. Up to now, over 100 of these have now been restored and returned to steam, some being virtual new build replicas at huge expense. A similar number have yet to be completed.

 

Some have yet to even start on that journey, and are perhaps with owners who can't afford just now to do them justice. Many are still completely derelict and no doubt, John O would say they were eyesores....but they've survived the cutters torch and are with enthusiastic custodians. Slowly but surely each year a trickle more are restored, by the same bearded and wooly hatted enthusiasts.....

[John Orentas]

and the bearded and wooly hatted enthusiasts (much like those now at Portland Basin) that carried out work on the Peak Forrest canal amid threats from BW to sue for trespass played no part in the process whatsoever.....

 

Your claim might hold for the rural lengths John, but what about the Rochdale 9. Would that route have ever been restored had Rodwell Tower been built as originally planned? I think not.

c.40 years ago, BR transferred to diesel traction on the railways and sold 200+ locomotives to a scrap metal merchant in Barry, South Wales. Fate decreed that they would survive the cutters torch till more enlightened times when their true worth was discovered. Up to now, over 100 of these have now been restored and returned to steam, some being virtual new build replicas at huge expense. A similar number have yet to be completed.

 

Some have yet to even start on that journey, and are perhaps with owners who can't afford just now to do them justice. Many are still completely derelict and no doubt, John O would say they were eyesores....but they've survived the cutters torch and are with enthusiastic custodians. Slowly but surely each year a trickle more are restored, by the same bearded and wooly hatted enthusiasts.....

 

 

Hi Niel.

 

Had you ever seen me Niel you would never have used the term 'bearded bearded woolly hatted' and please don't try to paint me as some sort of middle class rural Swede basher.. My family come from Collyhurst, inner city Manchester..

 

You may already know that the Rochdale 9 was never officially closed, otherwise all the gates would have been lifted off and dumped in the lock chambers just like the other 350 odd ones, the builders of the then Rodwell Towers (now 111 Piccadilly) were required to leave a navigable channel below.

 

Why are we attempting to canonise those oafs that infest Portland Basin, it is bit unfair that those of you that have not had the pleasure of clapping eyes on them are so free with your unreserved idolisation, I suspect Niel that you have worked hard for most of your days, I suspect you may not quite see eye to eye with most of them if you took the trouble to visit, anyway most would not have reached rusk chewing age at the time of the restorations.. Not only do they never seem to do any work on their sad boats, they never seem to work.