DIY boats

[Gary Peacock]

I have my own opinions on this but what do you think.

 

If you were starting a DIY boat project would you spend lots of time on a top notch fit out but base it on a really crap hull?

 

If you were buying a used boat that had a fantastic fit out but a crap hull would that influence your decision to buy?

 

I know these seem strange questions but we supply kit to a lot of DIY/semi professional builders and it is a subject often raised by many that is hull quality that important and does saving money there makes sense.

 

I think my views on this are increasingly out of date with the modern DIY market.

Edited July 13, 2007 by Gary Peacock

[carlt]

I'm probably not the right person to have first go at this but....IMHO the hull is everything. Everything else can be changed, redone or ripped out. The hull is the boat the rest is just trimming.

 

But if your interest is boating rather than boats....

[David Schweizer]

I have my own opinions on this but what do you think.

 

If you were starting a DIY boat project would you spend lots of time on a top notch fit out but base it on a really crap hull?

 

If you were buying a used boat that had a fantastic fit out but a crap hull would that influence your decision to buy?

 

I know these seem strange questions but we supply kit to a lot of DIY/semi professional builders and it is a subject often raised by many that is hull quality that important and does saving money there makes sense.

 

I think my views on this are increasingly out of date with the modern DIY market.

Just look at the second hand prices ten years on, whilst the quality of the fit out makes a difference, it is still the name of the hull builder that commands the baseline price.

[MikeV]

I think a good hull is very important. Also, if specifying your own build there are lot of important details I would want included such as split diesel tanks, wide gunwale, good handgrips along the roof, strong bow (for when I hit things!), rounded finish to the well deck, etc, etc.

 

As you can see I would look for strong and practical rather than flashy - although I appreciate the finer lines of some of the top builders, but it would not be my style.

[John Orentas]

I agree with what Carl has said and it should also be borne in mind that there is a top threshold limit for any kind of boat. I have seen boat hulls that have been bought second hand for just a few thousand pounds and the owner has lavished a kings ransom on hardwood floors and exotic veneered ply for the cabin. It looked like a dog before he started and it still looked like a dog after it was completed. Before the job was ever started anyone who knows something about boats could have put a maximum resale price on it.

 

Mind you I have also seen lots of very expensive shells with what looks like tea chest ply nailed to the cabin sides but in this case you can at least rip it all out and start again.

 

A similar rule follows for houses, how many times have you seen what should be a very expensive, much altered and extended in an area where you know very well no one would pay more than a certain price for any house in that location.

[Scotty]

If all goes to plan then i'll be buying a boat in the next couple of months.

 

My budget will either buy me a really good boat from the 80's-90's with an old engine & hull,

or a brand new 'lined sailaway' with very little cash left over for fitting out.

 

So i've started looking at boats built more recently going cheap due to an unusual fitout,

a lot of recent boats seem to have a 10mm baseplate.

It should buy me a useable boat from day one, which i can slowly re-fit internally to suit me.

 

So yes when i'm looking at boats I tend to ignore a bad interior and concentrate on a decent hull

[carlt]

Now that everyone is agreeing with me I'd like to add that I lived on a rotting wooden hull with a professional fitout. The best wooden hull you can have,though.

[Gary Peacock]

Now I used to tend to agree with those views too but I have being talking to couple of customers who dabble in doing the odd boat as a bit of sideline to their main businesses, both are reputable people but for their next build have taken the decision to acquire the cheapest hull they can find to maximise the profitability of the project.

It is their view that most of their customers are of the new residential boater breed and that these type of people have no interest what so ever in the hull all they want is nice flash fit out.

 

Now these two are both very good fitters and have good heads for business so I can't in all honesty say they are doing anything wrong. But when I asked "Well what do you tell the customers about the hull then?" I got the answer from one "Nothing, most of them don't even know what they're looking at anyway!

 

So it seems in the new market a lot of people aren't that interested in the hull anymore.

 

I know from my own experience that most people after a hull tend to be very price driven and increasingly less interested in the quality these days too.

 

I think the "Don't know what they're looking at anyway!" comes into it a lot, after all you do need to know a bit about the game to appreciate the visual quality of a hull and the average boater and some builders don't have a clue about some of the legal implication in design and manufacture that have come about over the last 9 years do they?

[John Orentas]

Now that everyone is agreeing with me I'd like to add that I lived on a rotting wooden hull with a professional fitout. The best wooden hull you can have,though.

 

 

I was watching a bunch of clowns at Portland Basin last weekend trying to re-float a decomposed wooden working boat, Wooden Boat Society I think. They turned up with two petrol driven pumps, neither of which worked and they ended up recruiting a fire engine an crew to do it for them. One bloke was in the water (not the cleanest place that basin) stuffing bedding into holes in the planking you could nearly climb through.

 

They eventually got it floating but who knows how long for.

[Lady Muck]

My freind lived on a wooden nb at Uxbridge years and years ago. He recounted it would sink on a fortnightly basis but that was ok because it was back in the days when the fire brigade would come and pump it out for free. Cheeky.

 

Re. hulls, we went for a boat with a good (Measham) hull. Agree with other posters, the hull is the boat, really don't understand those who go for cheap hulls. You can rip a fit out and change it easily, the hull is impossible to improve, really.

[Scotty]

They eventually got it floating but who knows how long for.

Hopefully it sank before one of Gary's mates could fit it out and flog it!

 

 

My search for a boat with a basic fitout brings up some perculiar hulls.

this one caught my eye, it's got some tiny portholes at the rear

and yet i doubt you could get much more glass facing the front!

 

Note the "new wood burning stove - £1000" rusting away in the middle of the boat!

[bottle]

I can understand what Gary is saying about the 'new' boaters, the canals have had a lot of publicity in the last few years and these 'newbys' think it would be nice to have a boat but are not interested in boating or the canals they are just looking for a lifestyle.

 

Of course not all 'newbys' are like that but obviously the colleagues of Gary think they have found a niche and of course not worried if it does not sell on the second hand/pre-used market in a few years time.

 

Personally I am going for a shell from a well known/reputable builder and the fitout will be done by what I think is an excellent/conscientious fitter.

[Hairy-Neil]

Its not a new thing at all......

 

To prove the point you only have to look at the production figures of the most prolific boatbuilders over the years.......were they building top quality stylish bespoke shells for discerning buyers or bargain basement get you afloat boats for the masses who's only care was the bottom line......

[carlt]

I was watching a bunch of clowns at Portland Basin last weekend trying to re-float a decomposed wooden working boat, Wooden Boat Society I think. They turned up with two petrol driven pumps, neither of which worked and they ended up recruiting a fire engine an crew to do it for them. One bloke was in the water (not the cleanest place that basin) stuffing bedding into holes in the planking you could nearly climb through.

 

They eventually got it floating but who knows how long for.

Let's hope the 'bunch of clowns' keep up their efforts. The WCBS may not meet with your approval John but I doubt if they're aware of, or care about, your opinion. They may have overstretched themselves in the number of historic nb's they're able to bring to restore to your exacting standards (I know how they feel), but they are doing something worthwhile and helping save our heritage.

How about you?

Edited July 13, 2007 by carlt

[-Jack-]

Hi Gary,

 

This is going to get me into trouble, but here we go:-

 

In general, women buy the boats ! If it looks pretty, a few tiles in the kitchen with fitted units and a fancy worktop plus a posh looking bathroom with proper looking WC, she'll be happy and therefore hubby agrees to buy. He wants a boat without fighting the missus.

 

The fact the hull is well constructed with strong scantlings etc doesn't matter 'cos that's not understood. If the hull is prettily painted - that matters.

 

I've been involved in house building and boat building ( mainly yachts ) . Unfortunately in both industries a fancy finish, possibly covering a multitude faults, will always outsell a very well constructed item with average finish.

 

Of course the best is a really well constructed hull then exceptionally well fitted out. The selling price then puts buyers off - because they can't see the value. You have to market to the average punter who wants the boat pretty and cheap

 

Of course everybody who bothers to read this forum, is better than and with higher expectations than; the average punter

[Jason Wilson and Family]

My opinion is, as someone interested in doing my own fitout, saving a few thousand pound on the hull isn't going to help me, in the long run, if the whole thing sinks or warps after some time. From a business standpoint, selling cheaply made but pretty boats will only skate you to the first major flaw found.

 

Now if you were a fitter and wanted something as a show boat, go for it. But it is bad business sense to take a risk on the most integral part of the product.

 

I'm sure there is a tradeoff, but there is a cuttoff where it ceases to be good business sense and becomes foolhardy and underhanded.

[Lady Muck]

Hi Gary,

 

This is going to get me into trouble, but here we go:-

 

In general, women buy the boats ! If it looks pretty, a few tiles in the kitchen with fitted units and a fancy worktop plus a posh looking bathroom with proper looking WC, she'll be happy and therefore hubby agrees to buy. He wants a boat without fighting the missus.

 

The fact the hull is well constructed with strong scantlings etc doesn't matter 'cos that's not understood. If the hull is prettily painted - that matters.

 

I've been involved in house building and boat building ( mainly yachts ) . Unfortunately in both industries a fancy finish, possibly covering a multitude faults, will always outsell a very well constructed item with average finish.

 

Of course the best is a really well constructed hull then exceptionally well fitted out. The selling price then puts buyers off - because they can't see the value. You have to market to the average punter who wants the boat pretty and cheap

 

Of course everybody who bothers to read this forum, is better than and with higher expectations than; the average punter

 

You put that last bit to stop me from shouting at you!

[DHutch]

You dont have to have a mega-expensive "brand-name" hull. Certainly, we dont.

- However as mentioned above, the hull is the one bit your really stuck with, and the one bit that everyone sees day in day out. And the the one thing that actually keeps everything else afloat as a boat!

- So yes, i would say the hull is important, its important that its well designed, solid, and aesthetically pleasing. Which i would say our is.

 

 

Daniel

[NBMike]

Hopefully it sank before one of Gary's mates could fit it out and flog it!

My search for a boat with a basic fitout brings up some perculiar hulls.

this one caught my eye, it's got some tiny portholes at the rear

and yet i doubt you could get much more glass facing the front!

 

Note the "new wood burning stove - £1000" rusting away in the middle of the boat!

 

I really liked the shower tray in that link Scotty. I hope they put plenty of silicone between the floor planking.

Mike

[-Jack-]

You put that last bit to stop me from shouting at you!

 

For sure. I can't bear women shouting at me go on give me a

[cyclic]

I really liked the shower tray in that link Scotty. I hope they put plenty of silicone between the floor planking.

Mike

I like the "Claryfier" built into the engine.

Does it make the workings of it more obvious to the mechanically challenged.

 

Why is a "Calorifier" so named in boating circles.

I didn't know what one was when I was looking, but if it had been described as a twin coil hot water cylinder, I'd have been right on it.

[Guest]

I like the "Claryfier" built into the engine.

Does it make the workings of it more obvious to the mechanically challenged.

 

Why is a "Calorifier" so named in boating circles.

I didn't know what one was when I was looking, but if it had been described as a twin coil hot water cylinder, I'd have been right on it.

 

calorifier (kə′lör·ə′fī·ər)

(engineering) A device that heats fluids by circulating them over heating coils.

 

It is quite normal in larger buildings such as schools, factories etc to call such a tank a "calorifier." I imagine that marine bods have used the term to make them sound clever. Vetus and some othe engine manuals call it a boiler.

[Hairy-Neil]

... I imagine that marine bods have used the term to make them sound clever.

 

That and to use one word instead of 5.....

 

Vetus and some othe engine manuals call it a boiler.

 

I've always thought of a boiler as something that actually generates the heat rather than act as a heat exchanger......

 

A heat exchanger......there's another much used term for this simple device...

Edited July 14, 2007 by Hairy-Neil

[hughc]

Many of the design points that make a hull worth having are very subtle. If you accept that a good standard of welding or wooden boatbuilding should be a given no matter what the price paid for a new hull then the most desirable features come down to how well the hull swims and handles. After that the above water shape and detailing start to come into play. It is a pity that many of the 'high quality' hulls that one sees on dock have underwater shapes that approximate to that of brick. Because of the desire to pack as much usable space into the available length swims are shortened and base plates made as wide as possible. These boats do not swim well and even at low speeds cause excessive wash. GUCCCo., Mersey Weaver and other yards produced boats that performed well even when loaded but of course they did not have a background in the design and construction of water tanks. What they did have was a need to ensure that form followed function in the most economical way possible. As a result many of these hulls have a simple beauty of line and ease of handling matched by very very few modern narrow boats, If many modern builders took the time to study these hulls and to educate their customers about what a pleasure it is to steer a well designed and balanced boat then we might see fewer complaints about speeding. Regards, H.C.

[Guest]

That and to use one word instead of 5.....

I've always thought of a boiler as something that actually generates the heat rather than act as a heat exchanger......

 

A heat exchanger......there's another much used term for this simple device...

Iv'e always thought of a boiler as a mother-in-law. I think firms like Vetus use the word boiler as a result of inaccurate translation. I prefer the word "calorifier", as "heat-exchanger" can be confused with the engine mounted heat exchanger, although heat exchanger is a fair description of a calorifier. I prefer the word "Paloma" but can't have one anymore.