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How much should I expect to pay for just a hull?

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I'm currently in the process of buying my first narrowboat, and cannot wait to get started on the canals.

I'm buying a project that just needs fitting out for now; after coming an inch away from buying a Merc Sprinter and vandwelling, my brother reminded me of our waterways, and I immediately started researching narrowboats.

Useful background, I think, as the point is that I'm going to be getting experience working with a boat before I start from scratch, and the finished project will be going to my brother once I have my end goal done (he's a mechanic and welder, done loads of work on narrowboats, and is basically going to help me build the two boats as payment for one of them at the end).

What I want to do once my first boat is complete, is buy a new hull. Just the hull. I'm a (non-professional) carpenter, and absolutely love my woodwork and DIY. My brother told me that wooden cabins are a thing, and after a bit of research, it all seems very viable (they even have advantages over steel in some areas, apparently).

The idea would be to buy, essentially, a 50ft semi-trad shell (or 40ft x 10ft widebeam) with no cabin. I'd then build a wooden cabin as quickly as possible, taking time off of work to get it done ASAP, and then float it (I feel like letting a roofless one sit outside, in the water would be a bad idea, though if it can be done sensibly, I'd love suggestions).

Wondering what kind of price I should be looking at for a shell without a cabin. Obviously the cabin is made with thinner metal, and is smaller, but the labour time, I think, would have a significant impact on the build costs. All of the public prices are, understandably, for full shells, but it would be nice to know at a glance whether going with a wooden cabin is going to be cost effective for a new boat.

Any other advice and information would be massively appreciated. I am still kind of on the fence about just buying a used boat and cutting the top off, but I do like the idea of having a brand new hull for what will end up being my home for a very long time.

Also, if any of this seems dumb, then please, go ahead and let me know. I'm open to the idea I'm being an idiot, caught up in the initial excitement of everything.

Cheers!

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David Mack Veteran II

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Steel cabins are the norm and have been for years. For mass market boats wooden cabins were superseded by grp cabins which in turn gave way to steel. And now wood and grp cabins are very much less desirable when it comes to market value. Why are you so keen to go against the trend?

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TheBiscuits Veteran II

TheBiscuits

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8 minutes ago, Isaac Beizsley said:

Also, if any of this seems dumb, then please, go ahead and let me know. I'm open to the idea I'm being an idiot, caught up in the initial excitement of everything.

Consider yourself told!

The older boats with wooden or fibreglass tops are not very well liked unless they are an ex-working boat of historical interest.

There is a reason that everyone switched to steel cabins.  Buying a bare shell with no cabin sides and top would actually be a custom design and build, and might end up costing more than buying a standard steel cabined boat - extra strengthening required to hold the hull sides together for example.

For a lot more detail on why just fitting out a bare shell is a bad idea for a newbie, see this thread:

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/95272-just-looking/

 

Edited by TheBiscuits
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Sea Dog Veteran II

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13 minutes ago, Isaac Beizsley said:

I'm currently in the process of buying my first narrowboat, and cannot wait to get started on the canals.

I'm buying a project that just needs fitting out for now; after coming an inch away from buying a Merc Sprinter and vandwelling, my brother reminded me of our waterways, and I immediately started researching narrowboats.

Let me, then, remind you of our proud Aero heritage in this country. A Lancaster might be a stretch as a first project, but a Victor Tanker might be an ideal first liveaboard. 

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29 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Steel cabins are the norm and have been for years. For mass market boats wooden cabins were superseded by grp cabins which in turn gave way to steel. And now wood and grp cabins are very much less desirable when it comes to market value. Why are you so keen to go against the trend?

I get that, but there's a few reasons for me personally.

First is the aesthetic; I love the look of wood cabin boats. Sure, I could be happy with a steel one, but it's just a little 'nice-to-have'.

Second is that I'll be able to do everything myself. There's the practical aspect of it–not having to pay for labour, but there's also the more difficult to explain part of just wanting to build my own stuff and do stuff myself. I built most of my furniture, for example, because I love the process and love being able to point at it and say 'I made that'.

Last is a couple small things that I might well be playing up in my head. Stuff like being slightly better for insulation, being lighter for slightly better engine performance and having a lower centre of gravity, making it more stable. Less condensation, as wood breathes.

Market value isn't of much concern to me. By the time I'm looking at actually starting the build, I'll have lived on a boat for a while, and will know whether or not I want to do it long term. If I don't, I simply won't build one, but if I do, I'll not be selling it on.

27 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

The older boats with wooden or fibreglass tops are not very well liked unless they are an ex-working boat of historical interest.

There is a reason that everyone switched to steel cabins.  Buying a bare shell with no cabin sides and top would actually be a custom design and build, and might end up costing more than buying a standard steel cabined boat - extra strengthening required to hold the hull sides together for example.

For a lot more detail on why just fitting out a bare shell is a bad idea for a newbie, see this thread:

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/95272-just-looking/

 

I'm not too fussed about what other people like. The one with a wooden top won't be my first boat, and I'll have lived on my first for a while. I'll now, by that point, whether I want to live on a Narrowboat long-term, and if I do, I won't be selling off the one I build.

As for there being a reason everyone switched to steel, care to share? Wood needs maintenance, sure, but properly cared for, it'll last a very, very long time.

The extra support for the hill's sides is an interesting point. Hadn't considered that.

That last bit, again, isn't too relevant as it's not going to be my first boat. I'm buying a used one to live on for a while, get a taste with, do up with my brother, and eventually give/sell for cheap to him.

24 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Let me, then, remind you of our proud Aero heritage in this country. A Lancaster might be a stretch as a first project, but a Victor Tanker might be an ideal first liveaboard. 

I wouldn't dream of getting a new boat for my first. :D Getting a used one to start off. The new boat is for once I've decided I want to stay on a boat for the long term.

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WotEver Veteran II

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1 minute ago, Isaac Beizsley said:

As for there being a reason everyone switched to steel, care to share? Wood needs maintenance, sure...

Lots of maintenance. On-going maintenance. Regular maintenance  

And they leak where they join the hull. Always. 

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Just now, TheBiscuits said:

Then why buy a steel hull?

You could just build a wooden hulled boat entirely ...

It's a good question, and honestly, I've considered it. Problem is I am not confident (as in have literally no faith at all) in my ability to build a hull. I am fairly confident that I could manage a cabin.

I also have time limitations; I can build a cabin much faster than I can build an entire boat. I can take time off of work for a cabin, but an entire boat, I'd need to store long term while I worked on it in parts.

3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Lots of maintenance. On-going maintenance. Regular maintenance  

And they leak where they join the hull. Always. 

I'm aware of the kind of maintenance required for wood that's going to get wet.

As for leaking at the join, I have read about that, but have seen plenty of people claim that it's solvable. I'll definitely look more into it, cheers.

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TheBiscuits Veteran II

TheBiscuits

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Well I think you are mad :D

Mad is good, but you might want to try the second boat with the woodentop by buying a not-liked (=cheaper!) GRP or woodentop with the hull in fair condition but a knackered cabin - there are a lot out there.

You could then replace the cabin on it with a full refit, on a hull already designed for exactly that.

Another alternative is to get one with a steel cabintop and timber-clad the cabin if it is just the look you want.

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Alan de Enfield Veteran II

Alan de Enfield

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If you can find wood that has the same thermal expansion characteristics as steel then you may have a chance at making a cabin / hull interface that doesn't leak.

A hot Summers day and the hull could be an inch or two longer and a fraction of an inch wider that it is overnight.

 

Just as an aside :

I was involved in Automotive cable harness design and spent some time in South Africa - we had to have different harness boards for morning production and afternoon production as the cable used for the afternoon production 'shrunk' back in the evening and the fixing points did not match up with the holes in the car panels. The harnesses produced in the morning became all 'floppy and saggy' between fixing points in the afternoons.

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1 minute ago, TheBiscuits said:

Well I think you are mad :D

Mad is good, but you might want to try the second boat with the woodentop by buying a not-liked (=cheaper!) GRP or woodentop with the hull in fair condition but a knackered cabin - there are a lot out there.

You could then replace the cabin on it with a full refit, on a hull already designed for exactly that.

Another alternative is to get one with a steel cabintop and timber-clad the cabin if it is just the look you want.

Yeah, trying a wooden top before I go all in is definitely a very sensible suggestion. Though selling it on once I decide either way would be a pain, wouldn't it?

Timber cladding, to be completely honest, hadn't even crossed my mind. Will see how I find working on a steel cabin one, and suppose if I don't mind it too much, I'll have no reason to go pure wood.

Cheers for the ideas! :D

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David Mack Veteran II

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8 minutes ago, Isaac Beizsley said:

Stuff like being slightly better for insulation, being lighter for slightly better engine performance and having a lower centre of gravity, making it more stable. Less condensation, as wood breathes.

As for there being a reason everyone switched to steel, care to share? Wood needs maintenance, sure, but properly cared for, it'll last a very, very long time.

A plain wooden cabin will provide insulation whereas a plain steel cabin provides none. But by the time you have insulated a steel cabin (and you have to do the steel hull anyway) there won't be any difference. 

Insulation and ventilation are key to avoiding condensation. The breathability of wood won't make much difference.

Engine performance??? really??? A lighter structure simply means you need more ballast to get the boat down to the desired depth.

Wooden cabins necessarily have joints. And that means places where leaks start, and where rot can get a hold. Once the rot starts you have an ongoing battle on your hands.

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Sea Dog Veteran II

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9 minutes ago, Isaac Beizsley said:

I wouldn't dream of getting a new boat for my first. :D Getting a used one to start off. The new boat is for once I've decided I want to stay on a boat for the long term.

Actually,  I was being a bit naughty as I was poking fun at the idea that one minute you're gonna live in a van, the next someone else mentions the waterways and suddenly it's a boat.  My strong advice to anyone is not to buy a boat on impulse.  A van is a much smaller investment and an absolute fraction of the running cost. Also much easier to recover from and move on if it doesn't work out. Caveat Emptor very much applies afloat.

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14 minutes ago, Sea Dog said:

Actually,  I was being a bit naughty as I was poking fun at the idea that one minute you're gonna live in a van, the next someone else mentions the waterways and suddenly it's a boat.  My strong advice to anyone is not to buy a boat on impulse.  A van is a much smaller investment and an absolute fraction of the running cost. Also much easier to recover from and move on if it doesn't work out. Caveat Emptor very much applies afloat.

Ah, completely missed that. You'll have to excuse my slowness: It's getting late and I spent all day cleaning in preparation for flat inspections. :mellow:

As for buying on impulse, I appreciate the sentiment, but it's not like the idea came up yesterday, and I'm bidding today.

He actually first brought it up when a friend of his was selling a boat well over a year ago. I shot it down immediately, without forming an actual reason in my head, and then over the course of said 'well over a year' came to regret it. Had all but forgotten about the prospect until he brought it up again, and have been mulling it over since.

A van is definitely cheaper, but space, though I really don't need much, is a bit of a concern when you're talking that small. Plus the legalities of living in one aren't nearly as nice as for a canal boat.

Edited by Guest
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Alan de Enfield Veteran II

Alan de Enfield

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Isaac Beizsley said:

Plus the legalities of living in one aren't nearly as nice as for a canal boat.

This is meant to be constructive :

Are you aware of the legal requirements for owning a boat ? (particularly to have either a home mooring - cost many £1000', or to 'continuously cruise' and move to a new 'place' - often quoted as a different parish, - every 14 days)

Boat has to pass its Boat safety examination (MOT equivalent)

Boat must have a licence (£500-£1000 per annum)

Boat must have insurance.

If the boat is to be a liveaboard then their are legal requirements for the installation of (such as) gas which must be conducted by a 'competent person' to the GSIUR regulations (same as a landlord has to do for a rented house).

If you are looking at an 'empty' hull - then there are legal requirements (Recreational Craft Directive) as to what engines you can fit - and the latest issue of the RCD includes 'major works' which encompasses fitting / replacing engines.

Lots more, It is not just 'build a boat and float off into the sunset'.

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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