another boat sank

[dccruiser]

Just thought i would chuck in my 2 penneth worth reference alarms .... personally i think it would make sense to have mercury tilt or ball bearing activated switches to alert of the rise / fall from stem to stern along with port and starboard .... over the years i have seen more than a few boats "hanging" or sunk due to tight mooring ropes in locks , also in the kind of floodwater we are currently experiencing

 

Rick

[Richard Fairhurst]

On the Forth & Clyde, they have little pictogram signs to tell you to keep off the cill.

 

The clever bit is that these are fixed on the inside of the lock (rather than the top of the coping sides), which makes them much more obvious to the steerer.

 

I guess the pictograms are because they get a fair number of Scandinavian sailors transiting to the Western Isles using the canal, and an obscure English word like "cill" is probably beyond them. But, that said, I wonder how many native-speaker new boat buyers know what it means?

 

I'm not 100% enthusiastic about these signs - the world is over-festooned with signs these days - but they do appear to work.

[haggis]

I am a bit surprised by the suggestion that all locks should have the cill marked. I thought they did already! My recollection is that there is a white mark on the inside of the lock wall indicating the end (or start) of the cill. Sometimes this is accompanied by the word "cill" or even "sill" but I can't think off hand of a lock that doesn't have the cill marked. Sometimes there is a metal vertical plate but more often just a white painted line.

[Radiomariner]

I am a bit surprised by the suggestion that all locks should have the cill marked. I thought they did already! My recollection is that there is a white mark on the inside of the lock wall indicating the end (or start) of the cill. Sometimes this is accompanied by the word "cill" or even "sill" but I can't think off hand of a lock that doesn't have the cill marked. Sometimes there is a metal vertical plate but more often just a white painted line.

 

Most Cills in my cruising area are also marked, but as pointed out above by haggis once the steerer is below the level of the lock top he no longer has that visual indication. If the boat is a bit on the longish side, around the time the steerer should be concerned about the cill his crew manning the lock gate are likely to be shouting that he needs to move astern a bit so they can get the gate open. When he sees the cill of course it is far too late. The steerer should remember, he is in control, advice from the lock top is welcome, but the cill is more important. The other can be sorted out later.

 

Someone earlier in the forum mentioned port/starboard lists in locks due to mooring ropes which reminded me of an incident some years ago when locking down on the Thames. I recon the lock keeper had crammed about 14 boats into the lock. Steel hull boats along the edges, plastic boats in the middle. As the lock emptied I noted that we were starting to list a little. At first I thought is was just my crew moving from one side of the boat to the other. The listing rapidly worsened, I then discovered that my "rubbing strake" was hung up on a protruding brick in the lock side. Shouting and screaming at the lock keeper did not seem to be working. When the plastic boat next to me started to make strange 'creaking' noises I pressed the horn and kept it pressed. That did the trick. However, by the time he got the sluices shut we were over at an angle of 30 degrees or more, and small cracks were appearing on the gunwhales of the plastic boat where the fenders were starting to make indents.

It does not happen often, but hanging up on the side of a lock is something else to be aware of. Also, to avoid sinking, make sure that horn works!

 

 

Radiomariner

[Christine]

When we do crew training for the Wey & Arun trip boat we are taught to wait for the OK from the skipper before opening paddles and to keep 'in contact' with them throughout the locking. We practice 'dropping the paddles' in a simulated emergency and roping the boat through.

 

Obviously 'ZK' carries 30 passengers through wide locks & is subject to MCA Regulations but why do I see novice crews who seem to pay little regard for the skipper during the locking process?

 

If an emergency arose, would they hear a shout and know what to do? Would they think they were just being offered a cuppa?

 

I always wait for a 'thumbs up' before lifting paddles on any lock, keep an eye open towards the skipper and KEEP ALERT.

 

It drives me crazy that some folks on boats don't have the grace to nod a 'hello' to us on a hire boat when we pass but want to stand around chatting and trying to impress you about what they have done etc. when you are operating locks. 'Sorry, I'm concentrating' often surprises them.

[Chris J W]

I managed to royally p*ss off some "mates" (you'll see why I used the inverted commas in a sec) last night. We were disscussing having a 'Boarding Party' some time in the near future, and I was talking about suitable destinations from Little Venice for a few hours there'n'back.

 

When I talking about going through Camdem I said "But there's no drinking if we've a series of locks to do. None at all. I don't want to risk either your lives or my boat"

 

This did not go down to well!

 

And after giving all the sensible reasons why this is a sensible approch didn't work, and the coup-de-grace of "It's my fecking boat so it's my fecking rules!" I think I really discovered who my real friends are ... and discovered that some people can be real tossers.

[Supermalc]

Cills marked on my lock

 

 

You can clearly see the line and marking in this photo.

 

I think???? I've still a couple of mercury switches somewhere, so if anyone does want to make an alarm, email or phone.......

[CanalWalker]

I have seen the front of a narrowboat take on a lot of water when gate paddles have been opened too soon.

[magnetman]

Some GU top gate paddles (proper term is 'centre paddles' to distinguish them from the 'gate paddles' which are in the bottom gates) have baffles fitted. This makes them MORE dangerous because people think 'straight up they've got baffles' then they do it on one without baffles. Load of rubbish and they slow the lock down and leak when they fill with debris. /rant/

[charles123]

enquired more and I did not quite get what happened correct, it was not the cill, there were 2 boats in the lock, the boat that sank got its base plate stuck on the protruding sandstone block that the sides are made of, as the water droped the boat healed over, had it been on its own it would probably have slid off but the other boat prevented this. Presumably they we emptying the lock quickly, healed over to such an angle that water entered the hull and it filled up quickly, the other boat crew was also worried as they were being forced down too by the angle of the sinking boat but were ok, passer by said was quite a common occurence round there

 

Charles

[Machpoint005]

Thanks for clarifying that one, Charles. Christine's remarks about contact between steerer and lock operator are spot on, and would probably have prevented the accident in this case. Usual practice on Egret is that the memsahib catches my eye - nothing more - before starting to draw a paddle. Slowly.

 

All credit too to Chris J W on the 'no booze when locking' rule: that's our normal practice too. A single stop lock with a 6" drop is OK if you are going to stretch a point and you're really thirsty!

[Radiomariner]

Thanks for that info Charles. That is pretty much the same as happened to me on the Thames, as described earlier in this thread to "Haggis". Only in my case it was the "Rubbing Strake" that got caught. Also had there not been four boats abreast, (Two narrowboats and two widish plastic boats) we would simply have slipped off. For us it was scary, but the plastic boat next to us had damage. He had largish fenders out (Scared of plastic boats) the weight of our boat against his fenders caused them to make dents in his plastic with radial cracking of the gel coat. He was not a happy chappy and gave me a right ear bashing in spite of me being the one to identify the problem and alert the lock keeper. I was gratefull to see him moor up just past the lock and stomp off to have words with the lock keeper. He re-appeared at the next lock but refused to go in while there were quote Steel Tubs" in there!

I make light of it now, but I did feel sorry for him at the time, the boat looked new, white and glossy, gleaming chrome and with with a very red ensign. Him in his white ducks, navy reefer jacket and white topped peaked cap with a crossed anchor badge, was obviously not a vastly experienced boater, probably ex Royal Navy!

 

Last evening a narrowboat sank in the Bank Newton flight heading towards Skipton on the Leeds and Liverpool canal. I have friends taking Lyra across this stretch for us who saw it and were delayed 5 hours while BW recovered the boat. They saw it happen and was all over in a couple of minutes. The usual problem was caught on the cill, the boat was only 5 weeks old. A tragedy for the owners

 

Charles

Before there is an outcry....

I would like to add to my previous remarks.

As an ex Merchant Navy Officer I have every respect for our Royal Navy. They do a good job and there should be a lot more of them. My remark was one of "friendly rivalry"

 

Last evening a narrowboat sank in the Bank Newton flight heading towards Skipton on the Leeds and Liverpool canal. I have friends taking Lyra across this stretch for us who saw it and were delayed 5 hours while BW recovered the boat. They saw it happen and was all over in a couple of minutes. The usual problem was caught on the cill, the boat was only 5 weeks old. A tragedy for the owners

 

Charles

Before there is an outcry....

I would like to add to my previous remarks.

As an ex Merchant Navy Officer I have every respect for our Royal Navy. They do a good job and there should be a lot more of them. My remark was one of "friendly rivalry"

[bargeeboy]

I guess the boats never really sunk.

 

They just had a lot over water in them if the gunwhales were still above water!

Edited July 1, 2007 by bargeeboy

[howardang]

.........I make light of it now, but I did feel sorry for him at the time, the boat looked new, white and glossy, gleaming chrome and with with a very red ensign. Him in his white ducks, navy reefer jacket and white topped peaked cap with a crossed anchor badge, was obviously not a vastly experienced boater, probably ex Royal Navy!

Before there is an outcry....

I would like to add to my previous remarks.

As an ex Merchant Navy Officer I have every respect for our Royal Navy. They do a good job and there should be a lot more of them. My remark was one of "friendly rivalry"

Before there is an outcry....

I would like to add to my previous remarks.

As an ex Merchant Navy Officer I have every respect for our Royal Navy. They do a good job and there should be a lot more of them. My remark was one of "friendly rivalry"

Radiomariner, maybe when you're in a hole it might be better to stop digging;-)

 

Howard Anguish

Edited July 1, 2007 by howardang

[bargeeboy]

RE Lock safety, this is in the Boaters handbook I downloaded from either BW or Waterscape

Their first bit of adivce is keep a watch on your boat. While I'm running the danger of crosssing the 'old salts' on the thread, I would say that advice is far more important than how you position your boat. Even if you are woefully out of position, paying attention will save your arse.

 

The one important thing (some experienced single handler would disagree) DO NOT have boat in gear when in a lock.

[John Orentas]

The one important thing (some experienced single handler would disagree) DO NOT have boat in gear when in a lock.

 

 

 

"Keep a watch on your boat". Brilliant piece of advice, that boaters handbook is worth every penny.

 

If it was all added up I must have spent many tens of hours watching those boats left unattended, engine running, in gear in the bottom of a lock. One of these days I would muse a lump of driftwood will gently drift into the rotating propeller.

Always interesting to speculate whether that macho boatman lookalike with the spotted hankie round his neck and the bowler hat would manage to get to his fancy brass gear lever before his gearbox was totally wrecked. Well one of these days !

[Phil Speight]

It can also be down to poor training/advice. If you've had your boat 5 weeks then you're relying on the builder, friends, blind ignorance or a qualified trainer to tell you how to operate a boat. I know which I'd prefer if I was chucking all that money at a new boat.

 

If it's your first time afloat get training. It doesn't cost much, compared to your stern on a cill and your bows in the mud, and you'll learn more than just safety.

Didn't they have them once, when they employed more maintenence staff than admin. personnel?

Bang on Carl. People really should get some sort of compulsory training - canals can be dangerous , they were designed to be used by working professional boat crews nearly 300 years ago and they remain a purely industrial transport system in all practical details. Use a lock properly and you won`t land on the cill - but if no-one is there to teach you these things.............

 

Sorry about your problems with Usk and Lucy Carl nobody could have tried harder than you have.

Cheers

Phil

[Radiomariner]

Radiomariner, maybe when you're in a hole it might be better to stop digging;-)

 

Howard Anguish

 

I didn't feel I was in a hole!

That last remark was in all sincerity. Our navy is crippled by lack of ships and men. When I first went to sea in the 60's piracy was never heard of, the Royal Navy was everywhere. In the last decade I have been pirated twice. Calling for help brought only sympathy not assistance.

The remark was about the understood fact that the Royal Navy have ships in ports that go to sea and the Merchant Navy had ships at sea that go to ports.

 

Oh yes, you might be right, I am digging deeper!!

[carlt]

Bang on Carl. People really should get some sort of compulsory training - canals can be dangerous , they were designed to be used by working professional boat crews nearly 300 years ago and they remain a purely industrial transport system in all practical details. Use a lock properly and you won`t land on the cill - but if no-one is there to teach you these things.............

 

Sorry about your problems with Usk and Lucy Carl nobody could have tried harder than you have.

Cheers

Phil

Cheers bPhil

Re-floated Usk yesterday and, apart from the need for a skip and a hose down inside, she's no worse for the experience.

Normally I'd say sinking a wooden boat can only benefit it but Usk is so pickled with tar I'm not sure she's bothered either way.

[carlt]

"Keep a watch on your boat". Brilliant piece of advice, that boaters handbook is worth every penny.

 

If it was all added up I must have spent many tens of hours watching those boats left unattended, engine running, in gear in the bottom of a lock. One of these days I would muse a lump of driftwood will gently drift into the rotating propeller.

Always interesting to speculate whether that macho boatman lookalike with the spotted hankie round his neck and the bowler hat would manage to get to his fancy brass gear lever before his gearbox was totally wrecked. Well one of these days !

 

Not sure how macho I'd look in a bowler hat and neckerchief as I've never worn one. I've never had a lump of driftwood stop my prop either. Many a time I've been urban boating and had the prop jammed up with: A tennis court net, 100' plus of builder's plastic, a chain link fence, a few mattresses, a sofa, weeds, and many submarine branches. Never broke a gearbox though. Thank god for shear pins eh. Although if, despite your extended study, without ever seeing it happen, I do need a gearbox rebuild due to a remarkable lock incident, I'd rather have that than seeing water rushing over my back deck because my rudder's hung up on the gate, going uphill. Which I have witnessed, and helped limit it to just a soggy back cabin

 

The one important thing (some experienced single handler would disagree) DO NOT have boat in gear when in a lock.

I disagree entirely. A correctly maintained lock gate (hah) and a fender with a weak link/ no fender at all are far safer with the engine at tickover in forward gear, than in neutral, with only a human being on the end of a rope to fight tons of boat in an unpredictable current.

[Supermalc]

Pleased you've got refloated Carl.

 

Storm, a large old boat that has sat at Bardney sunk. Rainwater in back.

 

'Vultures' have been circling for some time.

 

I tried to contact owner (who I know) through someone only bad timing, not quick thinking enough on my part so can't do. Was just going to offer help if required.

 

As to helping learn locks etc. When a boat has arrived at Bardney, I've usually gone up to say hello........and help etc. Quite a few times my help has been appreciated, when it's the first lock they have done.

 

All others seem to do is sit on their boats, if they ever go to them, and take the piss out of me for being sociable........still that's life.

 

[Radiomariner]

Some GU top gate paddles (proper term is 'centre paddles' to distinguish them from the 'gate paddles' which are in the bottom gates) have baffles fitted. This makes them MORE dangerous because people think 'straight up they've got baffles' then they do it on one without baffles. Load of rubbish and they slow the lock down and leak when they fill with debris. /rant/

 

I Disagree Magnetman. These baffles usually take the form heavy steel plate and serve two functions related to safety

 

1. If the paddles are opened too early (and that does happen) it prevents a torrent of water entering and possibly sinking a boat.

 

2. The wooden beams of the gate structure where a boats bow is likely to get snagged under, again a possible cause for a boat sinking, are covered

 

As for slowing the lock down what is the hurry! Unless the paddles are opened too early there is only about half a minute in it! I think if we wanted to go faster we would go for Formula1 cars not canal boats.

 

Having said that of course I do admit to the occasional boast that I managed to do the **** flight in *** minutes, espedcially when I was younger. Nowadays (A wrinkly at 64) I consider the aspects of safety and damage to the gates etc and accept that there is never a need to hurry. Those that actully "run around" to get through as fast as possible are not only a danger to themselves but to others.

I met an old guy once who was taking three small craft from London to Manchester by himself. I was amazed, he told me he was 92. His secret was, he said, "take your time, If these bl**dy youngsters are in a hurry they can help" an attitude that I have adopted and reciprocate on.

 

 

Rgds

[magnetman]

I agree about not hurrying i do it slow to allow magging time around locks. I was mainly commenting on baffles being on some paddles not all which makes them dangerous. In my view anyway and they do get blocked.

[magnetman]

If someone prefers operating locks with the efficiency as designed should they sod off to the M25? Why not fit automated paddles with nice slow rise (no hurry), cill sensors to prevent sinking and cut off those dangerous looking balance beams, you could kill a child with one of those. Better replace those worn out sandstone steps with some nice aluminium treadplate. For safety. Where does it end?

[WJM]

I dont remember the referendum where it was decided that Slow was the only speed on the cut. In its absence can I ask those of you who have chosen Slow as their preferred pace to be a considerate to of those who choose the more traditional working boat pace. You can start by letting the faster working crew go ahead at locks. This will enhance your life choice as you will be marginally slower and it will also enhance the life choice of the work-boat speedsters as they will be faster! Thank You!