Fire Retardant Wood Finish

[Sir Percy]

Hi,

Does anyone have any experience of, or thoughts on using a fire-retardant finish (paint or varnish) on a wooden interior?

Thanks

[Athy]

Percy, you posted this thread twice so I've hidden the other one. There had been no replies, so you haven't lost anything.

[WotEver]

Personally I can’t really see the point of a fire-retardant paint on a flammable substrate such as wood. 

[blackrose]

It's to make the flammable substrate more fire-retardant surely? In other words to decrease its flammability.

If you take another example, sprayfoam used in many boats in inherently flammable, so fire-retardant grades are used. Ultimately the foam is still flammable, but the time to ignition in the fire-retardant grade is increased making it less flammable.

[WotEver]

3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

It's to make the flammable substrate more fire-retardant surely? In other words to decrease its flammability.

Yes, but under the circumstances that would ignite non-fire-retardant painted wood would there be any appreciable difference?

Genuine question

[blackrose]

1 minute ago, WotEver said:

Yes, but under the circumstances that would ignite non-fire-retardant painted wood would there be any appreciable difference?

Genuine question

There would certainly be some difference, but whether that difference would be significant enough would depend on the circumstances and the objective - i.e. whether it's just providing more time to escape from the boat, or completely preventing combustion. 

I don't know anything about these products but there certainly seem to be plenty on the market.

https://www.rawlinspaints.com/timber-plasterboard

 

[Sir Percy]

1 hour ago, Athy said:

Percy, you posted this thread twice so I've hidden the other one. There had been no replies, so you haven't lost anything.

Thanks. The form came back saying something had gone wrong, looked like it required tags. I saw that two topics had been created but couldn't see how to delete.

3 minutes ago, blackrose said:

There would certainly be some difference, but whether that difference would be significant enough would depend on the circumstances and the objective - i.e. whether it's just providing more time to escape from the boat, or completely preventing combustion. 

I don't know anything about these products but there certainly seem to be plenty on the market.

https://www.rawlinspaints.com/timber-plasterboard

 

Thanks. On my boat, the hull insulation (Celotex) is going to be boarded over with pine T&G. Am I being too fire-safety conscious in considering a fire-retardant finish? I found the product you've linked to, on a web search, but I don't know how commonly it is applied on wooden boat interiors. 

Does anyone know if boat builders offer this on similarly-finished sailaways?

Cheers

[blackrose]

I don't think most people would bother, but a fire-retardant varnish or paint isn't a bad idea in my opinion. That's assuming that the other properties of the fire-retardant finish match those of a standard equivalent non-fire-retardant product.

[WotEver]

1 hour ago, blackrose said:

There would certainly be some difference, but whether that difference would be significant enough would depend on the circumstances and the objective - i.e. whether it's just providing more time to escape from the boat, or completely preventing combustion. 

I don't know anything about these products but there certainly seem to be plenty on the market.

https://www.rawlinspaints.com/timber-plasterboard

Interesting

[cuthound]

I think the only wood finish that is fire retardant is scumbled steel. 

[Dr Bob]

16 hours ago, blackrose said:

There would certainly be some difference, but whether that difference would be significant enough would depend on the circumstances and the objective - i.e. whether it's just providing more time to escape from the boat, or completely preventing combustion. 

I don't know anything about these products but there certainly seem to be plenty on the market.

https://www.rawlinspaints.com/timber-plasterboard

 

I can give you some thoughts. I do know quite a bit about these products.

1. Dont get fooled into thinking that the wood will then be 'non combustible'. Sure it will not burn as fast but it will still burn. If we focus on the Rawlins paint links (as good as any), they quote a BS576 part 7 standard and aim for class 0 or class 1. That standard is similar to playing a blow torch onto the centre of a vertical panel for a minute or so and then turning it off and measuring the surface spread of flame. A pass on this test may seem like the substrate doesnt burn but it may be very different in a real fire – the Grenfill fire was a good example. Treated surfaces will burn but likely slower

2. The 'Paints' will be intumescent coatings – ie on exposure to flame will expand and char hence stopping the heat getting to the surface. The snag here will be what does that paint look like in its 20 year life when no fire? I doubt you would get one that looks like a good internal paint. Looking at the Rawlins paints site, the wood treatments stuff looked interesting – ie looking at the MSDS sheet it is a 30% solution of Ferric Phosphate. This could be quite useful in rendering the wood less flammable. I may be tempted on that one but again are you going to varnish over?

3. I too wonder what you are trying to achieve, ie is it for escape purposes or to stop a fire when not on board. If you are not on board, I doubt whether these coatings/treatments would have a major effect as there will be plenty of other things that will burn. If you are on the boat then I am torn on whether these will help. They dont burn as fast as they interfere with the combustion process hence more smoke. Smoke is often the biggest problem in fires. The air space in a boat is small compared to a house so smoke is going to be an issue. The advantage of a NB is however it is easier to get out on your hands and knees with your eyes shut – a narrow passage to the front or back (or middle) so not easy to get lost. In the event of a fire, get down low and crawl out. The key then is to ensure you have smoke alarms, front, rear and central – and get ones that work – ie they go off every time you do a bacon sandwich.

4. A further comment is that with less efficient combustion, do you get 'nasties' emitted by the partial burning, ie dioxins etc? In the limited air volume we have, is this an issue? The British Standard test does not look at this – just surface spread of flame. If you go ahead, ask the paint supplier about the risks of smoke and nasties that are likely in a confined space.

5. A final comment is that it doesnt sound like many (any?) people do it. These coatings have been around for 40 years (same technology as the 70's) yet no one on here seems to know about them (poor response to this thread). We never use them in houses – but they are used extensively in offices/big buildings etc.

 

My strategy is to rely on smoke alarms and know how to get off the boat in the event of a fire. If it burns when I am away then I will rely on the insurance.

[ditchcrawler]

I have come across fire retardant scaffold boards, they just smouldered when some got left over a gas turbine exhaust 

[WotEver]

41 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I have come across fire retardant scaffold boards, they just smouldered when some got left over a gas turbine exhaust 

Ahh, but that’s the wood soaked in something like alum as opposed to a coating. 

[ditchcrawler]

23 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Ahh, but that’s the wood soaked in something like alum as opposed to a coating. 

Yes

 

[W+T]

It does get me thinking when these topics come up.

 

Surely its best not to set fire to the boat in the first place. 

 

So the items on the boat should be safe and not cause a fire.

 

And above all if it does set on fire then by time the wood cladding can set on fire then the rest is pretty much a gonner as it can only get this far if you are not present to put the fire out. Which by then sod it and let the insurance pay out as it will need a full rebuild and most will not bother anyway to do that. 

 

 

[Sir Percy]

On 10/7/2017 at 10:14, Dr Bob said:

1. Dont get fooled into thinking that the wood will then be 'non combustible'. Sure it will not burn as fast but it will still burn. [...]

2. The 'Paints' will be intumescent coatings – ie on exposure to flame will expand and char hence stopping the heat getting to the surface. The snag here will be what does that paint look like in its 20 year life when no fire? I doubt you would get one that looks like a good internal paint. Looking at the Rawlins paints site, the wood treatments stuff looked interesting – ie looking at the MSDS sheet it is a 30% solution of Ferric Phosphate. This could be quite useful in rendering the wood less flammable. I may be tempted on that one but again are you going to varnish over?

3. I too wonder what you are trying to achieve, ie is it for escape purposes or to stop a fire when not on board. If you are not on board, I doubt whether these coatings/treatments would have a major effect as there will be plenty of other things that will burn. If you are on the boat then I am torn on whether these will help. They dont burn as fast as they interfere with the combustion process hence more smoke. Smoke is often the biggest problem in fires. The air space in a boat is small compared to a house so smoke is going to be an issue. The advantage of a NB is however it is easier to get out on your hands and knees with your eyes shut – a narrow passage to the front or back (or middle) so not easy to get lost. In the event of a fire, get down low and crawl out. The key then is to ensure you have smoke alarms, front, rear and central – and get ones that work – ie they go off every time you do a bacon sandwich.

4. A further comment is that with less efficient combustion, do you get 'nasties' emitted by the partial burning, ie dioxins etc? In the limited air volume we have, is this an issue? The British Standard test does not look at this – just surface spread of flame. If you go ahead, ask the paint supplier about the risks of smoke and nasties that are likely in a confined space.

5. A final comment is that it doesnt sound like many (any?) people do it. These coatings have been around for 40 years (same technology as the 70's) yet no one on here seems to know about them (poor response to this thread). We never use them in houses – but they are used extensively in offices/big buildings etc.

 

My strategy is to rely on smoke alarms and know how to get off the boat in the event of a fire. If it burns when I am away then I will rely on the insurance.

Thanks - just for a bit of background, I'd read some of the MAIB reports of NB fire-related deaths on board. There's the obvious lessons to be learnt from them as to how to prevent or lessen the risk of a fire starting, but chancing on the fire-retardant products made me wonder whether it was worth the cost/effort slow down the spread of fire in the event of one occurring, to give yourself and anyone else on board time to escape. If you've already installed fire and smoke detectors as belt and braces, would such a further measure make any significant difference, I wondered. 

1. I was careful to use the term 'fire-retardant.

2. Would have been as an alternative to 'standard' varnish. Hadn't looked into how it holds up over time.

5. How widepread the use of it was what I was wanting to find out, but your last sentence is interesting in conjunction with 4. - perhaps it's not used in domestic applications because of dangerous by-products? I can only find this:

Quote

When exposed to fire, 1002 Fire Retardant Varnish expands to create an insulating barrier, protecting timber surfaces from flames, heat, and oxygen and suppressing emission of deadly smoke and gasses. This intumescent coating will provide effective fire protection.

But anyway, conclusion is as you say, that most people wouldn't bother.

 

 

[Robbo]

Just been watching Grand Designs where they used this type of paint, it was on structure wood where they wanted it left on show.  The paint extended the fire resistance by about an hour from 4minutes without it. In this case the paint made sense as it was protecting the structure.

IMHO I would but the money into preventing fires in the first place.  Most boat fires occur from either the stove and electrical items / wiring.  Spending the money on quality items and installed correctly and for ease of maintenance is probably better money spent.    How often do you see high wattage items like inverters shoved in a small cupboard with little of no ventilation!

[Dr Bob]

1 hour ago, Sir Percy said:

5. How widepread the use of it was what I was wanting to find out, but your last sentence is interesting in conjunction with 4. - perhaps it's not used in domestic applications because of dangerous by-products?

 

 

 

No, I dont think so. The benefits of lower combustability should outway by products in a house fire - I was worried it might be a bit different in a NB with the limited air space.

I really dont know why we dont put them in private houses - as they should be beneficial, and they are widely used in multi occupancy places (offices, tower blocks etc). I am sure I heard on the TV that in Wales (where our house is), for new houses you have to install sprinklers now. Why not intumecsent coatings?

During my working career, my employer was paranoid about safety and one big lesson I was taught was what to do when staying in a hotel. When getting to your room on arrival, work out what to do in a fire. Work out when you open your room door, which way to the fire exit and memorise how to do it on hands and knees with your eyes shut - ie count the doors etc. Hence my comment that on a NB it is not too difficult the work this out.

Interesting topic!

[ditchcrawler]

10 hours ago, Dr Bob said:

No, I dont think so. The benefits of lower combustability should outway by products in a house fire - I was worried it might be a bit different in a NB with the limited air space.

I really dont know why we dont put them in private houses - as they should be beneficial, and they are widely used in multi occupancy places (offices, tower blocks etc). I am sure I heard on the TV that in Wales (where our house is), for new houses you have to install sprinklers now. Why not intumecsent coatings?

During my working career, my employer was paranoid about safety and one big lesson I was taught was what to do when staying in a hotel. When getting to your room on arrival, work out what to do in a fire. Work out when you open your room door, which way to the fire exit and memorise how to do it on hands and knees with your eyes shut - ie count the doors etc. Hence my comment that on a NB it is not too difficult the work this out.

Interesting topic!

Its interesting to go in a fire training smoke room and finding your way around