Electric or hybrid

[Detling]

All  the arguments about range and charge times go away if you have plug in batteries, you get two with the car. One can have a nice slow off peak charge at home or in a charging point locker, whilst you drive round on the other, then you swap. Need more range, or are away on holiday, you  swap at service points just like gas bottles.  The biggest obstacle is the car manufacturers who will need to be forced to use compatible battery components, think of the humble mobile phone, some get hissy over small chargers and as for Apple just think monopoly.

[WotEver]

46 minutes ago, Detling said:

All  the arguments about range and charge times go away if you have plug in batteries, you get two with the car. One can have a nice slow off peak charge at home or in a charging point locker, whilst you drive round on the other, then you swap. Need more range, or are away on holiday, you  swap at service points just like gas bottles.  The biggest obstacle is the car manufacturers who will need to be forced to use compatible battery components, think of the humble mobile phone, some get hissy over small chargers and as for Apple just think monopoly.

Tesla tried this. They planned for a network of 'battery swap' service stations and got the time down to about 30 seconds. Unfortunately they proved unpopular with the car owners with extremely limited use so they scrapped the plan with only one built. 

[WotEver]

2 hours ago, peterboat said:

so why are the order books full and all production sold then

Because there are a stack of folk with more money than sense. 

There are in excess of a billion cars on the road right now - is that Tesla's estimated production for this year or next?

[MtB]

On 29/07/2017 at 12:22, peterboat said:

 

so why are the order books full and all production sold then

 

I think this is probably still 'novelty value' at work here.

I'd be interested to find out what proportion of Tesla owners have one as their only car. I bet most have another for those trips when the Tesla is unsuitable due to range limitations. For a long weekend at a nice guest house in the lake district say, I doubt any charging facilities will be availabe for days on end. So they will go in their Range Rover instead. 

I also wonder how many people who have to rely on street parking have purchased a Tesla.

Are there any cheap and cheerful mass market 100% electric cars on the market yet? Say around the £10k mark?

 

Edit to change 'Telal' back into 'Tesla'!

Edited July 29, 2017 by Mike the Boilerman

[Robbo]

28 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I think this is probably still 'novelty value' at work here.

I'd be interested to find out what proportion of Tesla owners have one as their only car. I bet most have another for those trips when the Tesla is unsuitable due to range limitations. For a long weekend at a nice guest house in the lake district say, I doubt any charging facilities will be availabe for days on end. So they will go in their Range Rover instead. 

I also wonder how many people who have to rely on street parking have purchased a Tesla.

Are there any cheap and cheerful mass market 100% electric cars on the market yet? Say around the £10k mark?

 

Edit to change 'Telal' back into 'Tesla'!

I think the Nissian Leaf is around £26k mark new.  I’ve no idea what an equiv petrol car would cost tho.

[DHutch]

4 hours ago, WotEver said:

I couldn't. Even a 400 mile range would be [in]sufficient for me. Not every day, but if I need to run down to the south coast and back in a day (as I have had to on occasion) I need a car that can do it. 

I think this is where, as well as technological changes, we will also see user changes.

In short this will mean you won't run down to the south coast and back, in a day, in a car. What happens instead is slightly hanging in the balance, but it might be swapping (hire) cars like stagecoaches used to, or getting a train for most of it and  a car at the end. There many also be some changes in lifestyle, which wouldn't be a bad thing, and actually you now don't need to do it anymore or you have two days do the trip.

I love my straight six petrol car, but even doing as much carsharing to work as I can, using the train when I can, or is taking my girlfriends diesel fiesta, I know it's not really sustainable living and that in the future things will change.

Daniel

[WotEver]

27 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Are there any cheap and cheerful mass market 100% electric cars on the market yet? Say around the £10k mark?

Nope. And as you say, the majority of Tesla sales are as an additional vehicle, not a replacement. Even if they were replacements their entire (optimistically predicted) output for 2017 would amount to well under 0.001% of the vehicles on the road. 

[WotEver]

Just now, DHutch said:

I think this is where, as well as technological changes, we will also see user changes.

In short this will mean you won't run down to the south coast and back, in a day, in a car. What happens instead is slightly hanging in the balance, but it might be swapping (hire) cars like stagecoaches used to, or getting a train for most of it and  a car at the end. There many also be some changes in lifestyle, which wouldn't be a bad thing, and actually you now don't need to do it anymore or you have two days do the trip.

When my mum was poorly and I needed to get down to her and back to work the following day, then short of chartering an aircraft and hiring a car at Brighton yes, I did have to do that journey. 

[WotEver]

So good you said it thrice, Dan?

[DHutch]

2 minutes ago, WotEver said:

So good you said it thrice, Dan?

Yeah, not sure what happened there.

[Robbo]

I think a lot more people will be hiring cars in the future.   Around main towns and some minor ones we have hire cars by the hour that are available locally.  You join up for a yearly fee and it’s easy to book cars.  No human contact needed, no walking around the car with the hire company looking for bumps or scratches.  You basically book via an app, turn up at car, you have a token to unlock and to get the keys from box in glove box I think.  

[DHutch]

5 minutes ago, WotEver said:

When my mum was poorly and I needed to get down to her and back to work the following day, then short of chartering an aircraft and hiring a car at Brighton yes, I did have to do that journey. 

I can absolutely see why you did the trip, but it's an exception to the rule, not normal life.

If you had had to change car at a service station and hire for the second leg, you would have just done that. If your employer was more understanding you could likely have taken na day or half day off or maybe worked remotely. If trains where better you could have done 90% of it on the chocho. I slight change in perspective, but a range of other options.

Daniel

[MtB]

On 29/07/2017 at 16:38, Robbo said:

I think a lot more people will be hiring cars in the future.   Around main towns and some minor ones we have hire cars by the hour that are available locally.  You join up for a yearly fee and it’s easy to book cars.  No human contact needed, no walking around the car with the hire company looking for bumps or scratches.  You basically book via an app, turn up at car, you have a token to unlock and to get the keys from box in glove box I think.  

 

Why not? How can that work if damage is not noted or charged for?

My limited experience of hiring cars is that it takes longer to get the car than to make the journey. Then when you take it back, another hour is soaked up and you risk all manner of addition charges being dreamed up. And you still have to get back home from the hire place!

Avoiding inconveniences like these are the main reason people want to own their own cars. I cannot imagine that demand disappearing, ever.

[Robbo]

9 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Why not? How can that work if damage is not noted or charged for?

My limited experience of hiring cars is that it takes longer to get the car than to make the journey. Then when you take it back, another hour is soaked up and you risk all manner of addition charges being dreamed up. And you still have to get back home from the hire place!

If you damage it or notice any damage you notify them.   Enterprise now do them (I think they bought one of the companies that did the scheme originally).   It’s not meant if you want the car for a full day or more.  It’s designed for short hires, etc.  Handy if you don’t need a car daily, but would like one for short shopping trips n the like.  The cars are located on the street or in car parks.

Enterprise does the one near us; https://www.enterprise.co.uk/en/car-club.html

Edited July 29, 2017 by Robbo

[WotEver]

3 minutes ago, Robbo said:

If you damage it or notice any damage you notify them.   Enterprise now do them (I think they bought one of the companies that did the scheme originally).   It’s not meant if you want the car for a full day or more.  It’s designed for short hires, etc.  Handy if you don’t need a car daily, but would like one for short shopping trips n the like.

Enterprise does the one near us; https://www.enterprise.co.uk/en/car-club.html

They need to get ahead of the game then and have only electric vehicles.

Well, once the range problem is sorted out.

And the cost. 

[MtB]

On 29/07/2017 at 17:05, WotEver said:

They need to get ahead of the game then and have only electric vehicles.

Well, once the range problem is sorted out.

And the cost. 

 

The link Robbo gives states they already have electric cars for hire.

Trouble is, the nearest one to me here in Pewsey is Bath. A 25 mile drive away. errr...

[Robbo]

Just now, WotEver said:

They need to get ahead of the game then and have only electric vehicles.

Well, once the range problem is sorted out.

And the cost. 

I can see that happening.   For me, when I want a car it’s usually for a full day or more so I still hire the traditional way.  It’s a lot easier now as the paperwork is done beforehand, but there is still the walk around the car beforehand and the crappy sell of trying to sell you the lower excess crap. (If you hire often you can get separate yearly insurance to remove the excess, and is usually worth it if you hire more than 4-5 days in a year). They also imply that the excess will be £1000 which is wrong, it will be up to £1000 and most issues would cost around the £200 mark anyhow.

[WotEver]

2 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

Trouble is, the nearest one to me here in Pewsey is Bath. A 25 mile drive away. errr...

And the nearest one to me is a little over 30 miles away... not working this, is it?

Just now, Robbo said:

I can see that happening.   For me, when I want a car it’s usually for a full day or more so I still hire the traditional way.  It’s a lot easier now as the paperwork is done beforehand, but there is still the walk around the car beforehand and the crappy sell of trying to sell you the lower excess crap. (If you hire often you can get separate yearly insurance to remove the excess, and is usually worth it if you hire more than 4-5 days in a year). They also imply that the excess will be £1000 which is wrong, it will be up to £1000 and most issues would cost around the £200 mark anyhow.

Yes, I hire abroad for at least 20 days a year plus occasional van hire in the UK so I have the CDW insurance. I think it cost about £40. 

[Robbo]

3 minutes ago, WotEver said:

And the nearest one to me is a little over 30 miles away... not working this, is it?

Yes, I hire abroad for at least 20 days a year plus occasional van hire in the UK so I have the CDW insurance. I think it cost about £40. 

I don’t think normally the CDW insurance covers the excess on vans tho?

Edited July 29, 2017 by Robbo

[WotEver]

Just now, Robbo said:

I don’t think the CDW insurance covers the excess on vans tho?

You know, I never checked the small print so maybe you're right. I still declined Enterprise's kind offer though.

[Robbo]

Just now, WotEver said:

You know, I never checked the small print so maybe you're right. I still declined Enterprise's kind offer though.

I’ve never needed it, but when I checked one company (from a link someone provided on CWDF) they didn’t.  Might have only been that one scheme tho, etc.

[WotEver]

6 minutes ago, Robbo said:

I’ve never needed it, but when I checked one company (from a link someone provided on CWDF) they didn’t.  Might have only been that one scheme tho, etc.

I'll go look through it now. Brb

Okay, yes it did cost £40 and there is an exclusion for 'commercial vehicles'. I guess I need to phone them to ask exactly what that definition covers. 

Edited July 29, 2017 by WotEver
Add 2nd para

[DHutch]

I've done a fair amount of one way hires to airports when I worked at JCB and did occasional trips and a few 3months stints in India.

Never was it painless, they dropped the car at my house, I drove it to the airport hire base, then did the reverse coming home.

Never did any paperwork or walking around the car. It just worked. 

Daniel

[bizzard]

Clockwork will be the way forward without a doubt. No electric shocks, no acrid electrical stinks. No heavy and very expensive fancy batteries.  Instead of charging bollard thing dotted about,  spring winding mechanism points will be dotted about. Instead of an electrical charging port on the side of you clockwork car there will be a largish keyhole, just like the Triang Minic toys of yesteryear.  This keyhole on you car will be positioned bang in alignment with the winding shaft key on the bollard which shoots out and into your cars keyhole, like its making love with it, and connects with your clockwork winding spindle. The winding process will cease slightly prematurely in case your spring gets strained and snaps.  In the unlikely event of your spring running down on the open road special laybys will be provided at regular intervals, some with powered winding bollards, some without.  All Clockwork motor cars will be provided by their manufacturer with a large key in their tool kits, along with a tin of graphite spring grease and oil can. This big key is the emergency winder upperer, to be used by the driver manually to get you to your destination, ''The clockwork version of Limp home mode''.  The roof of the cars will be rather tall and rounded, this is to house the propulsion spring in its limp unwound state.          Any questions ?

[system 4-50]

My DeLorean, which I'm expecting to be delivered anyday now, can go to Betelgeuse and back on only one charge, so the nice man who sold it to me said.