Bilge pumps and Bilges

[mross]

I have a gas alarm in my boat, but it has to be mains powered as the energy required cannot be met by internal batteries.  It has never gone off.  I also have three CO alarms as I am well aware of the risks of having solid fuel stoves.  Ladyg's link did not explain how the gas accumulated so it wasn't very useful.  I hope she heeds advice on running a petrol generator!

[LadyG]

7 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Which couldn't happen on a narrowboat with a BSC. 

http://www.bromsgroveadvertiser.co.uk/news/9567387.Man_injured_after_explosion_on_narrow_boat_in_Tardebigge/

I cant work these quotes, but essentially nothing is idiot proof.

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/news-and-views/news/boat-safety-scheme-issues-gas-warning-to-boaters

Edited June 12, 2017 by LadyG

[mross]

Ladyg, the examples you give have nothing to do with LPG on a narrowboat. If you follow the guidance in the Boat Safety Scheme, you will be as safe as can be.  

You've made it to 70, so you have avoided all the risky phases of life.  Life is a hereditary disease and is always fatal.  But at 70 your life expectancy is greater than mine. ( Unless you ignore all the advice here)

[LadyG]

I did not say I needed a manual bilge pump to extract gas, I just explained why a manual pump has advantages over an electric one, and having total reliance on electric is not always a great idea.

 

Edited June 12, 2017 by LadyG

[WotEver]

21 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I cant work these quotes...

And none of them have anything to do with a leaking Calor bottle as per the yacht example that you posted as justification for your claim to needing to purge the boat of fumes. 

[mross]

Is all this gas possibly diet related?

[LadyG]

Just now, WotEver said:

And none of them have anything to do with a leaking Calor bottle as per the yacht example that you posted as justification for your claim to needing to purge the boat of fumes. 

You have not understood, people do things that in retrospect seem unfortunate, or even unbelievable, reckless, and unsafe. Usually it requires a collision of factor to go wrong. They are not all freak accidents, they are often accidents waiting to happen.

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, LadyG said:

You have not understood, people do things that in retrospect seem unfortunate, or even unbelievable, reckless, and unsafe. Usually it requires a collision of factor to go wrong. They are not all freak accidents, they are often accidents waiting to happen.

Yes, okay, you're right, we should all purge our bilges daily because you say so. 

[LadyG]

13 minutes ago, mross said:

Is all this gas possibly diet related?

I would imagine that North American members are now sitting with head in hands.

Oh, a Q here, why are you narrow boaters using orange gas bottles, it always used to be blue ones ?

7 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Yes, okay, you're right, we should all purge our bilges daily because you say so. 

You can do what you like, I did not suggest you should purge your boat dailly,, I just explained one advantage of a manual over an electric pump.

its not necessary on a NB  it seems, but if gas does accumulate, how are you going to remove it? These things do happen, even if they "shouldnt"

Just a day like any other on the K&A

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/video-watch-narrowboat-sink-seconds-11758334

 

 

Edited June 12, 2017 by LadyG

[Tony Brooks]

Because blue ones (butane) has difficulty vaporising in low temperatures. Red ones (propane) vaporise well enough in winter.  It is not unknown on boats with blue bottle to have to pee on them first thing in the morning to get enough gas to boil a kettle that is then used to warm them further.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Tony Brooks

[WotEver]

Generally (but not always) red bottles are propane and blue are butane. 

[OldGoat]

8 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I would imagine that North american members are now sitting with head in hands.

Oh, a Q here, why are you narrow boaters using orange gas bottles, it always used to be blue ones ?

'Cos it's a different gas.

Orange bottles are for Propane which has a higher freezing (?) point - or is it vapour point than Butane. Some other gases come in green bottles 'cos it doesn't know what it is (I better say 'joke') 

Butane is for campers and BBQs .

Propane is for MEN

Edited June 12, 2017 by OldGoat

[WotEver]

1 minute ago, OldGoat said:

Some other gases come in green bottles 'cos it doesn't know what it is

It usually calls itself Patio Gas. I didn't know that patios were a part of the distillation process...

[OldGoat]

Just now, WotEver said:

It usually calls itself Patio Gas. I didn't know that patios were a part of the distillation process...

'Twas a jest. More cynically it contains some snake oil so that they can charge more for it.....

[LadyG]

19 minutes ago, WotEver said:

And none of them have anything to do with a leaking Calor bottle as per the yacht example that you posted as justification for your claim to needing to purge the boat of fumes. 

I dont know why you are taking this agressive stance, is what you would say to someone face to face, I  doubt it, you would just discuss it in a civilised way. We are all entitled to our own opinions.

10 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Because blue ones (butane) has difficulty vaporising in low temperatures. Red ones (propane) vaporise well enough in winter.  It is not unknown on boats with blue bottle to have to pee on them first thing in the morning to get enough gas to boil a kettle that is then used to warm them further.

Well that's one justification for four pints of lager the night before!

Horses sweat, men perspire, ladies glow

horses pee for England, men pee for Scotland, ladies are discrete................

[LadyG]

13 minutes ago, WotEver said:

Generally (but not always) red bottles are propane and blue are butane. 

For some reason all the nb s I have seen have propane, maybe its because they are used more in winter, or maybe it is because the cookers are set to burn efficiently with the characteristics of propane [i am not demanding everyone change to propane in summer btw]

[Tony Brooks]

I think the gas regulator is different so although the calorific value of each gas is different the regulators supply a different pressure so the cookers still work well without re-jetting.

[LadyG]

16 minutes ago, WotEver said:

It usually calls itself Patio Gas. I didn't know that patios were a part of the distillation process...

ooh, a great idea,: get one of those patio heaters with a sort of tepee top,  stick it in the well deck, get a self igniting barbecue from Tesco. catch a pike and off you go, delicious, BBQ in the traditional way.

Edited June 12, 2017 by LadyG

[Scholar Gypsy]

 

7 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

I think the gas regulator is different so although the calorific value of each gas is different the regulators supply a different pressure so the cookers still work well without re-jetting.

29 mbar butane, and 37 mbar propane, according to the Calor Gas website.

And the two sorts of bottle have different connectors, so you can't get muddled up.

Edited June 12, 2017 by Scholar Gypsy
Incompetence

[WotEver]

28 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

'Twas a jest. More cynically it contains some snake oil so that they can charge more for it.....

And very good snake oil it is too... it burns sausages most effectively. 

[LadyG]

1 hour ago, OldGoat said:

A properly designed NB makes it very difficult to get water into the accommodation area in normal use. A the bow (or pointy end), there is usually a beam across proud of the foredeck that stops water coming in. Similarly at the stern - if it's a trad style, so you are protected from leaky lock gates and tiddles from leaky lock walls.

Apart from a major incident you shouldn't need a massive bilge pump. NBs don't usually do lee rail under....

I was a bit worried about that NB on the Wash, what provision is there to prevent water going in to the exhaust, on yachts I think there is a very high loop, which should never fill in normal circumstances. So no water can get in to the engine., or the boat itself.

Edited June 12, 2017 by LadyG

[mross]

29 minutes ago, LadyG said:

For some reason all the nb s I have seen have propane, maybe its because they are used more in winter, or maybe it is because the cookers are set to burn efficiently with the characteristics of propane [i am not demanding everyone change to propane in summer btw]

No, they use propane because it can be used year round without having to change the regulator or the gas jets.  Why do you always ask for advice and than argue with the answers?  I wish you would hurry up and buy the damn boat!  Any boat.

[Scholar Gypsy]

I was a bit worried too! The trick is not to go out if the wind is too strong. Our pilot said the boat handled very well, though some of the crew were a bit sea-sick.

Also, it's not a problem if the exhaust goes momentarily under the water, when the engine is running. The difference with a yacht is that it when sailing the engine is stopped.

[OldGoat]

18 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I was a bit worried about that NB on the Wash, what provision is there to prevent water going in to the exhaust, on yachts I think there is a very high loop, which should never fill in normal circumstances. So no water can get in to the engine., or the boat itself.

Don't tempt me.....

I have always believed in wet exhausts as the only proper way to cool a boat's engine. Our first serious hire was from a small company whose boats were always (?) fresh water cooled. If the exhaust is 'properly' installed, then there is a water trap silencer in the loop - so that any reasonable external ingress from the sea / canal is caught by that trap and pretty quickly blown overboard by the engine running.

Heavens knows what happens with a hot exhaust - probably the same - but more 'explosively'.

If in doubt ALWAYS install a proper vintage engine with a vertical exhaust - so problem solved.

An aside - I wonder what Chris Coburn did in 'Progress' ? He made many nb design departures over the years to mitigate travelling on the salty stuff. Too grand to ask when I pass by - never seems to be there....

 

 

[Scholar Gypsy]

Here's another approach - Tuesday Night Club and NB Earnest, with a snorkel. These photos are taken on their trip to the Chelmer and Blackwater.