Antennae and antennae mounting for 4G

[Dr Bob]

I'm in the market to fit some comms stuff to our newly bought NB and been thrashing my way through all the info from this forum......hard work!

I have focussed in on getting separate boxes for receiving wifi from specific sources (ie the marina and when away, pubs and BT FON) and 4G mobile data. I think I'll get those boxes from Solwise.

What I am struggling a bit with is the choice of antenna for the 4G box and best way to mount them. I say 'Them' as the solwise info suggests two antenna to get 2*2 streams. I will call Solwise to get their thoughts but wanted first to see what knowledge there is here so I can sound a bit more 'with it' when I call. One antenna they seem to be suggesting is the 4G-XPOL-A0001 which seems to be 2 antennas in one box for £77 ...but it is only 2-3dB gain. An alternative it to get 2 higher gain 'single' antennae but that doubles the antenna cost.

I also wonder what experiences people have of mounting them. I am considering a telescopic pole on the front bulkhead which can be taken down when out on the cut  but wonder if a magmount would work just as well - and could be done with a shortened antenna cable. Increased height above deck will be beneficial but I havent a clue how much.  If I end up with 3 antenna (2 for 4G and one for Wifi) then a properly designed demountable pole sounds what I need but it would be simpler if I could just stick a mag mount antenna out the window for when I am using either the 4G or the wifi - not likely to use both at the same time!

[rusty69]

Not much to add to all the previous threads. I have tried aerials on high extendable poles etc. Currently just stuff mifi in a porthole. 

You may be better off with a low gain omni aerial that gets just outside the superstructure. Long losy cable can mitigate any useful gain from an aerial.

Solwise are very helpful. 

[Nickhlx]

I went with Solwise about 15 months ago and the same omni dual aerial you mention - I think much of the improvement comes from getting the aerial outside and clear of the superstructure of the boat. The omni dual aerial was strongly recommended as it saves problems with orientation, which on reflection was good advice - I am sure I would have got fed up with optimising the aerial direction each time we moved.  It also removes as best as can be done in practice, the issue of reflections and not really knowing what angle the signal is approaching the aerial from.  If you can shorten the co-axes and re-connect the connectors, it will probably save another dB or two of cable losses, which is always good...

I think the ideal aerial arrangement to aim for will be the aerial on a hinged aerial pole that can be quickly laid down when approaching a bridge, either at the front of the boat if you have helpers on baord, or rear within reach of the helmsman, if not.  After all, CAT6 can be run the length of the boat without any loss, so the position of the router doesn't need to be in the middle of the boat near the PC / laptop, but the router does need to be as close as practical to the aerial to minimise co-ax losses.

Nick

[OldGoat]

It's not obvious - but only some MiFi units have an antenna socket - and mobile phones don't have a socket at all, so the first question is - to what device do you intend to use on board?

A similar argument applies to your wifi connection. I also echo what Rusty has jus said. I just use an appropriate whip aerial which I put on the roof. Something like this:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Huawei-E5372-E5377-E5332-E589-ZTE-MF823-Antenna-11dBi-TS9-Aerial-Signal-Booster-/142378683585?hash=item21266e4cc1:g:vcsAAOxyJX1TD47T

I also bought a couple of these (one for home and one for the boat). They work moderately well:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/35dBi-Dual-Broadband-Amplifier-Antenna-3G-4G-Signal-Booster-LTE-TS9-HUAWEI-E392-/282219333335?hash=item41b59546d7:g:RZYAAOSwEzxYdbco

I also bought one  of this type - not a lot of use if you don't know from where the signal is coming - but could be useful for WiFi

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4G-LTE-Outdoor-Antenna-Yagi-Router-TV-Box-Signal-Strength-Booster-/322256401819?hash=item4b07fa759b:g:7WgAAOSwGtRX0o3x

 

 

 

 

[Dr Bob]

32 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Not much to add to all the previous threads. I have tried aerials on high extendable poles etc. Currently just stuff mifi in a porthole. 

You may be better off with a low gain omni aerial that gets just outside the superstructure. Long losy cable can mitigate any useful gain from an aerial.

Solwise are very helpful. 

Thanks Rusty. I have read a lot of your responses to threads on 4G so it is interesting you are now using the simple solution! The 'low gain omni aerial...' is what I was thinking on using a magmount just outside the window with the router just inside and less than 1M of cable. In a previous existence I did ham radio and use 12.5mm cable most of the time ....and that was at much lower frequencies.

11 minutes ago, Nickhlx said:

I went with Solwise about 15 months ago and the same omni dual aerial you mention - I think much of the improvement comes from getting the aerial outside and clear of the superstructure of the boat. The omni dual aerial was strongly recommended as it saves problems with orientation, which on reflection was good advice - I am sure I would have got fed up with optimising the aerial direction each time we moved.  It also removes as best as can be done in practice, the issue of reflections and not really knowing what angle the signal is approaching the aerial from.  If you can shorten the co-axes and re-connect the connectors, it will probably save another dB or two of cable losses, which is always good...

I think the ideal aerial arrangement to aim for will be the aerial on a hinged aerial pole that can be quickly laid down when approaching a bridge, either at the front of the boat if you have helpers on baord, or rear within reach of the helmsman, if not.  After all, CAT6 can be run the length of the boat without any loss, so the position of the router doesn't need to be in the middle of the boat near the PC / laptop, but the router does need to be as close as practical to the aerial to minimise co-ax losses.

Nick

Nick, thanks for the input and I agree with the omni versus orientated antennas. Too much of the signal will come from reflections.

You dont say how you got on with the system and was your antenna at roof level or up a pole?

[Dr Bob]

8 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

It's not obvious - but only some MiFi units have an antenna socket - and mobile phones don't have a socket at all, so the first question is - to what device do you intend to use on board?

A similar argument applies to your wifi connection. I also echo what Rusty has jus said. I just use an appropriate whip aerial which I put on the roof. Something like this:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Huawei-E5372-E5377-E5332-E589-ZTE-MF823-Antenna-11dBi-TS9-Aerial-Signal-Booster-/142378683585?hash=item21266e4cc1:g:vcsAAOxyJX1TD47T

I also bought a couple of these (one for home and one for the boat). They work moderately well:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/35dBi-Dual-Broadband-Amplifier-Antenna-3G-4G-Signal-Booster-LTE-TS9-HUAWEI-E392-/282219333335?hash=item41b59546d7:g:RZYAAOSwEzxYdbco

I also bought one  of this type - not a lot of use if you don't know from where the signal is coming - but could be useful for WiFi

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/4G-LTE-Outdoor-Antenna-Yagi-Router-TV-Box-Signal-Strength-Booster-/322256401819?hash=item4b07fa759b:g:7WgAAOSwGtRX0o3x

 

 

 

 

Thanks Old Goat. I was looking at the RUT950 router but there is the cheaper 54RV router that may do the business. Being able to disconnect the unit and then power up with it remembering the settings is a key issue which I am not sure how these 2 routers perform.

On antennae, I like the look of the first link - especially the price and so having 2 antenna to get 2*2 wouldnt be too expensive. I guess then my real question is will a simple small antenna that Nick (above) is using on a magmount on the roof (so fed out of the window with 1m of antenna cable) work as well (or nearly as well) as two higher gain antenna on a raised poll.

[MoominPapa]

I have a little magmount antenna, about 5cm high, originally bought for 3G and plugged into a Huawei USB dongle which is plugged into a portable WiFi router.  We CC, and have almost never failed to get usable 4G. The antenna is on the boat roof, pretty much in the middle.

 

 

MP.

 

[Giant]

In general, the dB gain of an antenna is mostly just proportional to how directional it is. The highest gains will be from antennas that need to be aimed at the cell tower to work well, which isn't that practical on a boat. But you can get medium-gain antennas with good reception in all directions, but only near the horizontal plane. That makes pretty good sense for cellular network reception and is what most will be, around 2-4dBi.

As others have noted, you'll lose more from long crappy cable than by choosing between two similar antennas. I went for a router in a waterproof enclosure up on the mast, with only ~50cm cable to the antenna.

[OldGoat]

9 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Thanks Old Goat. I was looking at the RUT950 router but there is the cheaper 54RV router that may do the business. Being able to disconnect the unit and then power up with it remembering the settings is a key issue which I am not sure how these 2 routers perform.

On antennae, I like the look of the first link - especially the price and so having 2 antenna to get 2*2 wouldnt be too expensive. I guess then my real question is will a simple small antenna that Nick (above) is using on a magmount on the roof (so fed out of the window with 1m of antenna cable) work as well (or nearly as well) as two higher gain antenna on a raised poll.

Ouch - I'm far too much of a cheapskate to look at either of those (well, they weren't invented when I started). OTOH I don't know whether they would work well with an external aerial - but Solwise would advise.

The links I posted were intended to indicate the type and not that specific one. You need to find one which has a good solid magnetic base. I fear that particular one is a bit flimsy. Mine has coils rather than a balun - they are around but you have to search. I tried the pole trick once and found that the signal was actually worse. I made the assumption that most mobiles were at ground level and that the signals were directed to that level. The concept of a "ground plane" also works for an antenna at or near the superstructure of a boat

My installation is like MoominPapa's and his solution works out much cheaper than  your proposed. There was a discussion on here last year (?) where it was suggested that twin antenna were not really necessary (unless you're going to watch wall-to-wall video (which I can't support as it soaks the network for everyone else , but then I am a miserable Old Goat -  Harumph).

Get some inexpensive kit and see how you go. As with-the-meaning-of-life-and-everything, there's no definitive answer.

 

 

[rustydiver]

I've got a solwise omni directional aerial. Mounted on a sturdy extentable decorators pole mounted outside. Works a treat. It's connected to a tp link 4g router with a three unlimited SIM card. No need to connect to the marinas wifi. 

While it may not be the cheapest option. It works well and is stable and no need to connect to a slow marinas wifi. 

Edited June 8, 2017 by rustydiver

[rusty69]

5 minutes ago, rustydiver said:

 Mounted on a sturdy extentable decorators pole mounted outside. 

Is it the Harris pole? 

[rustydiver]

I think it was. It the black twistie grips. Easy to go up. It has my tv aerial. 4g and weather station on. 

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, rustydiver said:

I think it was. It the black twistie grips. Easy to go up. It has my tv aerial. 4g and weather station on. 

Thats the one i got. The higher I put my directional aerial, the worse the signal got. Still, a good pole, and good for tv aerial. 

[rustydiver]

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, rustydiver said:

Thats what I call fully loaded. 

 

Have you got a SETI antenna on there? 

Edited June 8, 2017 by rusty69

[Dr Bob]

2 hours ago, OldGoat said:

The links I posted were intended to indicate the type and not that specific one. You need to find one which has a good solid magnetic base. I fear that particular one is a bit flimsy. Mine has coils rather than a balun - they are around but you have to search. I tried the pole trick once and found that the signal was actually worse. I made the assumption that most mobiles were at ground level and that the signals were directed to that level. The concept of a "ground plane" also works for an antenna at or near the superstructure of a boat

My installation is like MoominPapa's and his solution works out much cheaper than  your proposed. There was a discussion on here last year (?) where it was suggested that twin antenna were not really necessary (unless you're going to watch wall-to-wall video (which I can't support as it soaks the network for everyone else , but then I am a miserable Old Goat -  Harumph).

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Giant said:

In general, the dB gain of an antenna is mostly just proportional to how directional it is. The highest gains will be from antennas that need to be aimed at the cell tower to work well, which isn't that practical on a boat. But you can get medium-gain antennas with good reception in all directions, but only near the horizontal plane. That makes pretty good sense for cellular network reception and is what most will be, around 2-4dBi.

 

 

3 hours ago, MoominPapa said:

I have a little magmount antenna, about 5cm high, originally bought for 3G and plugged into a Huawei USB dongle which is plugged into a portable WiFi router.  We CC, and have almost never failed to get usable 4G. The antenna is on the boat roof, pretty much in the middle.

 

 

 

Thanks all for your inputs and your real life experiences. I understand the theory of antennas and their practical use but only at lower frequencies ie the 144Mhz and below. The 144Mhz ham band needs a 1/4 wave dipole of around 50 cms which gives a gain of 1dB. To get better gain you extend the dipole to 5/8th wave and end up with 3dB gain with the signal going out from a vertical dipole in a 360 deg pattern but more at lower take off angles and less at higher angles. You can get up to higher dBs gain by making an array of elements which is possible when your freq is 10 times higher and you wavelength 10 times less. What is interesting though is that with a dipole, vertical antennas used the ground plane as the 'bottom' element of the vertical hence a close connection to a 60ft hunk of steel is a great ground plane. I just wonder if these commercial 4G antennas are phased arrays that need a good ground hence they do work better in close proximity to the roof.

I was asking the question about putting antennas on poles or via mag mounts to see if anyone had any knowledge of the use of the ground plane. I ask as when I used the 144 MHz ham band (2metre wavelength) in a car, I was never convinced the mag mount worked as good a properly fixed 5/8th wave vertical with grounded to the car chasis.

Given what I have heard here so far, I think I will go for a decent (ie expensive) router but maybe go for the solwise 2*2 antenna as per Nick's first response. I will give solwise a call tomorrow and see what they advise.

[Nickhlx]

OK - I need to admit that I am a Ham with special interest in aerials and all you have said is pretty much the case - the little dual omni from Solwise is not needing the external groundplane of e.g. a boat roof and it would seriously reduce its performance to place it close to the roof or even adjacent to a metal pole. I have mounted mine on a wooden (fibreglass would be better) pole as clear as possible from anything conductive and as high as practical, although that seems to have less effect than proximity to conductors once it is up in the clear.

The 1/4 wave and the 5/8ths magmounts depend  on a good groundplane for them to work and bring the impedance down to near 50 ohms for a good match to its feeder, which is essential for best power transfer to and from the router (which is both a transmitter and a receiver).  I also didn't rate the performance of magmounts compared to "proper" fixed aerials...  and glassmounts I found were even worse, which I mainly put down to lossy coupling through the glass, although partly to its lower elevation and partial masking by the roof of the vehicle.

A superb omni aerial which is truly groundplane independent, is the J-stick or the Slim Jim (have a Google) which are very similar in operation and comprise a 1/4 wave radiator with a matching section below. The particular point of this aerial is that the main lobe is almost completely horizontal, whereas the 1/4 wave on a groundplane is about 45 degrees and the 5/8ths on a groundplane is better at about 30 degrees.  These may be better aerials depending on the topography of the surrounding land though, although it is more likely that the J-Stick / Slim Jim will be better in most cases. I have a SO-239 socket fitted into the centre of the roof of the boat which works very well with the good groundplane of the roof, and HF from a narrowboat also works well, being surrounded by usually wet land...

I run a J-Stick for 70 cms on the screen of my bike, as I tour UK / Europe when I can, and a modest 5 watts at UHF still manages up to 30 miles, whereas a handheld with its "rubber duck" helical is maybe a third of this range.  I am not sure you could buy J-Stick aerials for 4G frequencies, and to make them would require some quite specialised kit to set them up properly, or a lot of trial and error. I haven't taken mine apart yet, but I imagine the aerials within are printed on the PCB and are simple phased dipoles.

Hope that helps

Nick

 

 

 

[GUMPY]

Sadly in my days of 2m and 70cms activity omni antennas didn't cut the mustard. On 2m I had  4x 17ele yagi and on 70cms 4x21ele yagi stacked and bayed. Used to easily work into mainland Europe under flat conditions from the middle of England .

 

Edited June 9, 2017 by Loddon

[OldGoat]

The last few posts (since my last attempt to help) have been fascinating and well above my limited knowledge. So time to keep quiet.....

[Dr Bob]

2 hours ago, Loddon said:

Sadly in my days of 2m and 70cms activity omni antennas didn't cut the mustard. On 2m I had  4x 17ele yagi and on 70cms 4x21ele yagi stacked and bayed. Used to easily work into mainland Europe under flat conditions from the middle of England .

 

....Ah, all the Hams are coming out now!!! I had a couple of years working in Texas (many moons ago) and using my UK call on the local 2m net (GM0ECO) I managed to confuse and excite a guy in Florida who thought he had a cross atlantic contact. That was with a 1/4 whip on a magmount on the roof - but he was over 1000 miles away.

I apologies to those who are not into amateur radio as this will mean diddly squat to them.

[Dr Bob]

9 hours ago, Nickhlx said:

OK - I need to admit that I am a Ham with special interest in aerials and all you have said is pretty much the case - the little dual omni from Solwise is not needing the external groundplane of e.g. a boat roof and it would seriously reduce its performance to place it close to the roof or even adjacent to a metal pole. I have mounted mine on a wooden (fibreglass would be better) pole as clear as possible from anything conductive and as high as practical, although that seems to have less effect than proximity to conductors once it is up in the clear.

The 1/4 wave and the 5/8ths magmounts depend  on a good groundplane for them to work and bring the impedance down to near 50 ohms for a good match to its feeder, which is essential for best power transfer to and from the router (which is both a transmitter and a receiver).  I also didn't rate the performance of magmounts compared to "proper" fixed aerials...  and glassmounts I found were even worse, which I mainly put down to lossy coupling through the glass, although partly to its lower elevation and partial masking by the roof of the vehicle.

A superb omni aerial which is truly groundplane independent, is the J-stick or the Slim Jim (have a Google) which are very similar in operation and comprise a 1/4 wave radiator with a matching section below. The particular point of this aerial is that the main lobe is almost completely horizontal, whereas the 1/4 wave on a groundplane is about 45 degrees and the 5/8ths on a groundplane is better at about 30 degrees.  These may be better aerials depending on the topography of the surrounding land though, although it is more likely that the J-Stick / Slim Jim will be better in most cases. I have a SO-239 socket fitted into the centre of the roof of the boat which works very well with the good groundplane of the roof, and HF from a narrowboat also works well, being surrounded by usually wet land...

I run a J-Stick for 70 cms on the screen of my bike, as I tour UK / Europe when I can, and a modest 5 watts at UHF still manages up to 30 miles, whereas a handheld with its "rubber duck" helical is maybe a third of this range.  I am not sure you could buy J-Stick aerials for 4G frequencies, and to make them would require some quite specialised kit to set them up properly, or a lot of trial and error. I haven't taken mine apart yet, but I imagine the aerials within are printed on the PCB and are simple phased dipoles.

Hope that helps

Nick

 

 

 

Thanks Nick

I wondered if there would be any other amateurs around!

Yep, fully understand what you are saying. Verticals depend on the ground plane but quad loops or dipoles need are best at least 1 wavelength above the ground - but at these frequencies that is not a lot. Yes, I guess the antennas are phased verticals or phased quad loops which does mean keep them at least 6 inches off the deck. A wooden pole it is then - if I cant find a fibreglass one!!

When we got the boat a month ago, my first thought was how to put my hf kit on the boat - in mothballs at the moment. My main focus years ago was radio contesting and built all my own big wire arrays (80m/40m) running max power (you know what that means). I  totally failed to get a simple vertical working well on our plastic boat that we sailed to the Med - not good enough grounding. Keen to get a 40/80m vertical working on the new boat -and guess cant go wrong with the ground plane available. Are there any nets for HF on the canals? Always fancied getting back into 'Worked all Britain' which would be different from the canal network.

[Dr Bob]

33 minutes ago, OldGoat said:

The last few posts (since my last attempt to help) have been fascinating and well above my limited knowledge. So time to keep quiet.....

No, you did help....with real life experience. ie what works and what doesnt work. Us Hams will witter on for hours and hours with theory and design and all sorts of goobledy gook (spelling??) but at the end of the day, when buying these 'consumer' boxes, do they actually work? Experience always helps.

[OldGoat]

How kin

1 hour ago, Dr Bob said:

No, you did help....with real life experience. ie what works and what doesnt work. Us Hams will witter on for hours and hours with theory and design and all sorts of goobledy gook (spelling??) but at the end of the day, when buying these 'consumer' boxes, do they actually work? Experience always helps.

How kind of you, thanks!

The last time I did any CQ work was at 6Mhz, in a car, using - would you believe A BBC studio ribbon microphone and ex-gov: aircraft radios...... Couldn't be bothered to learn morse code - so gave up!

[Giant]

I went with an LMO7270 MIMO antenna, mounted on the crosstrees to be clear of the mast itself. Price was similar to the Solwise one. On the left here - router is the rectangular box in the middle.

[Dr Bob]

15 minutes ago, Giant said:

I went with an LMO7270 MIMO antenna, mounted on the crosstrees to be clear of the mast itself. Price was similar to the Solwise one. On the left here - router is the rectangular box in the middle.

Giant, nice set up.

I think I will end up with something far more simple. I am thinking more along the lines of having an antenna that I can pass out of the window and mount on a pole - only used when not moving.

A rather daft question to all. If I dont use the window to pass the antenna wire through, and have to install permanent wiring to a collapsobale mast,  what is the best way to get the wires out of the boat? I guess drilling a hole through the front panel of the boat (a 62ft narrow boat) - but I am not sure what the construction of the cabin wall is. We do have a cratch cover so I wouldnt be concerned with water ingress. The boat is away getting some fit out work done for the next week or so - so it will be a few weeks before I can look at the set up needed. If the antenna comes with wire and connectors then the hole to be drilled needs to be big enough for the connectors to go through. How have you all tackled this?

There is already a TV ariel on the boat - but with the boat away, I am not sure how the coax goes though the cabin wall.