Stove safety

[douglas_ferguson1]

Hi all,

 

I recently purchased a narrowboat and am now settling in to living aboard.

 

There were a couple of things about my boat that appealed to me, one of the tipping points was the bubble corner diesel stove, it is back boiled and supplies heat to the back cabin through a radiator and also heats my hot water.

 

Another thing that appealed to me was the "switch on and leave it" possibility as I work full time and that way I can keep the place warm whilst in out, especially at the moment.

 

Anyway, i come home the other night and open the back door and the air is almost purple with fumes, a seal failed on the stove and allowed diesel to escape the burning pot and evaporate off the hot surface to the rear, the cabin was filled!!!!!!!! Dear lord, the fumes would have turned even the most hardened stomach! The alarms were all blazing, luckily I didn't switch a light on or i fear the air would have ignited.

 

Of course I undertake the reccomended cleaning guidelines as per the bubble owners manual, but that doesn't anticipate failures of this magnitude.

 

I have been on the phone to a guy who services these, its nearly £200 not including parts! This should be done yearly.

 

Due to this i am now reconsidering the entire arrangement, as in 2.5 years I could buy a mid-low end multi fuel stove for the price of the servicing alone!

 

Now that I'm actually living aboard Im also noticing issues with the arrangement I did not anticipate with my rose tinted glasses, I constantly burn my leg and hand on the piping for the backboiler as I walk through the boat. I think I just want to rip it all out.

 

Im on a 57ft trad stern, the stove is located just inside the cratch doors and presently I find that the stove struggles to heat the rear cabin, there is no obstruction between the stove and the rear cabin, we wanted the air to flow through the walkway for most efficient heating.

 

Am I correct in believing diesel stoves don't burn as hot as multifuel stoves? Im talking output not burn efficiency.

To heat the space Im considering a 7kw multifuel stove (reminder Im on a 57ft boat), would this be sufficient? Even being next to the cratch doors? I know this is not an ideal location but Im trying to work with what I've got, I don't want to move it unless totally necessary.

 

Off a "good fill" how long can one expect a coal fire to last? 8-9hrs?

 

I am considering removing the backboiler system, relying upon immersion to heat my water whilst in the marina and the engine when out and about, do many have this arrangement?

 

Also, I find that I'm using in excess of 40l of diesel in a week, equating to roughly £30, is there any saving on coal? Im sure you can guess this isn't my reason for wanting to switch, bit its nice to know.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

If you never get a response from me its because the diesel stove has finally finished the job!

[b0atman]

i am in a 55ft with a Boatman stove/Back boiler this feeds 3 radiators .Stove is multi fuel rated at 4kw 74?% efficient rated 25kg bag of excel lasts 4 days .Probably you would use more fuel to get calorifier upto temp.Bedroom temp at back is usually above 18c when i get up in the morning saloon is usually at 20c then .If damper not monitored then can soon get to 28c .

[douglas_ferguson1]

If damper not monitored then can soon get to 28c .

Do yobleave the boat for any extended periods of time? Does that cause any issue (overheating etc)?

[Alan de Enfield]

Our 'coal' stove ran 12 hours + on one fill (of brillo-pad nuggets)

1 bag (at around £10) would last 3 days - maybe a little less if very cold weather.

Boat uncomfortably hot at times, windows open all of the time.

 

On a 'lets see how hot we can get it' test we had to give in when the temperature reached 54^oC at waist height and was unbreathable at head height.

 

Your feet may well be 'on the cool side' but slippers help.

 

Without radiators it is unlikely that sufficient heat will get to the back of the boat, but for most people that's fine as they don't like hot bedrooms.

[mrsmelly]

You will get conflicting views. My twopenneth is that solid fuel stoves are way way better than diesel. A bit of dust is no big deal. Such as a squirrell can be fueled up and left with absolute ease for in exess of 24 hours never mind 8/9. Costs are not that disimilar I would think a good quality s/f will not be much cheaper than diesel at todays prices its preference. I had a similar occurence with the one and only diesel stove I have ever had 17 years ago as you have just suffered. I will not be going the diesel route any time soon. My boat is near full length and the stove can easily keep the front cabin at 30 degrees but at the arse end it can go down to 15 ish but thats fine as we dont sit down at the arse end. When shut down overnight the whole boat can get cold the trick is to keep it how you want it solid fuel stoves are very very very controlable.

[douglas_ferguson1]

54°c?! That's both amazing and scary all at the same time!!

 

12hrs is a reassuring burn time though. Does that tale much maintenance?

 

Generally I dislike a hot bedroom, but ours sometimes dips below 10 at the moment, the dibble seemsnto struggle with heating the rads for some reaso

[WJM]

I have a Lockgate Reflex diesel stove and I can leave it running continuously for weeks at a time. It is perfect if you have a busy lifestyle and are away from the boat from early mornings to late at night.

Edited February 9, 2017 by WJM

[douglas_ferguson1]

You will get conflicting views. My twopenneth is that solid fuel stoves are way way better than diesel. A bit of dust is no big deal. Such as a squirrell can be fueled up and left with absolute ease for in exess of 24 hours never mind 8/9. Costs are not that disimilar I would think a good quality s/f will not be much cheaper than diesel at todays prices its preference. I had a similar occurence with the one and only diesel stove I have ever had 17 years ago as you have just suffered. I will not be going the diesel route any time soon. My boat is near full length and the stove can easily keep the front cabin at 30 degrees but at the arse end it can go down to 15 ish but thats fine as we dont sit down at the arse end. When shut down overnight the whole boat can get cold the trick is to keep it how you want it solid fuel stoves are very very very controlable.

That is highly reassuring, so thanks for that.

 

Im glad it isn't just me that has had this issue, did you notice a difference in the type of heat when moving from diesel to coal? Is one drier than the other? I hear some people saying that the heat from diesel can add condensation??

[mrsmelly]

That is highly reassuring, so thanks for that.

 

Im glad it isn't just me that has had this issue, did you notice a difference in the type of heat when moving from diesel to coal? Is one drier than the other? I hear some people saying that the heat from diesel can add condensation??

 

I have only had diesel once and it was not a bubble it was a rubbish dickenson so cannot realy comment on the difference apart from the dickenson didnt heat water or the boat properly. I am now on my eigth liveaboard boat and all but two have had squirrell stoves, they are my stove of choice. The other solid fuel stove was a " Masport Fatso " 20kw on my widebeam an absolutely awesome stove made in New Zealand.

[douglas_ferguson1]

I have only had diesel once and it was not a bubble it was a rubbish dickenson so cannot realy comment on the difference apart from the dickenson didnt heat water or the boat properly. I am now on my eigth liveaboard boat and all but two have had squirrell stoves, they are my stove of choice. The other solid fuel stove was a " Masport Fatso " 20kw on my widebeam an absolutely awesome stove made in New Zealand.

I think a 20kw monster might be slight overkill for me, bit inlet the point haha.

 

I have been looking at the squirrel, also another brand called chilly penguin, they have a built in pizza stove but then I worry I may not be able to find down the corridors due to a gain in mass on the midriff!

 

Have you ever used only immersion & engine to heat water in your calorifier by chance? As the back boiler will either need replacing or refitting and my funds are not endless!

[mrsmelly]

I think a 20kw monster might be slight overkill for me, bit inlet the point haha.

 

I have been looking at the squirrel, also another brand called chilly penguin, they have a built in pizza stove but then I worry I may not be able to find down the corridors due to a gain in mass on the midriff!

 

Have you ever used only immersion & engine to heat water in your calorifier by chance? As the back boiler will either need replacing or refitting and my funds are not endless!

 

Yes many times I have only used immersion and engine. Two points. Immersion is great IF plugged in to mains otherwise its not a good idea. Two engine heating calorifier is awesome but of course sometimes if not careful could necesitate running engine when you didnt need to. Simply put if you are plugged in having immersion is a no brainer.

[douglas_ferguson1]

Yes many times I have only used immersion and engine. Two points. Immersion is great IF plugged in to mains otherwise its not a good idea. Two engine heating calorifier is awesome but of course sometimes if not careful could necesitate running engine when you didnt need to. Simply put if you are plugged in having immersion is a no brainer.

That's brilliant, think I have me a plan! Now I just need to work out how the hell you bleed a back boiler!! This corner stove is wedged in so tightly I can't see a bleed valve.

 

Your help has been much appreciated though, so thank you.

[luggsy]

We have a lockgate reflex running 3 rads ( one is double in the bedroom ) and towel rail , best decision we made not at all expensive to run works out at £3 a day = 4 litres a day with diesel being 75p a litre , clean and can leave it in for weeks

[douglas_ferguson1]

We have a lockgate reflex running 3 rads ( one is double in the bedroom ) and towel rail , best decision we made not at all expensive to run works out at £3 a day = 4 litres a day with diesel being 75p a litre , clean and can leave it in for weeks

Is there a specified maintenance schedule for those though?

 

I found carbonation of the oil pot to be a massive issue within the bubble, I have adjusted and adjusted so many different settings, all in line with the described requirement on the manual and it has made minuscule improvements.

 

I think presently my biggest concern is another failing seal, be that on a refleks or a bubble etc, you can't imagine how bad the vapor leak was, if I had been asleep at night and somehow not heard an alarm I wouldn't be writing this, I'll put it that way.

 

I understand regardless of fuel type there is maintenance to be had, but a solid fuel stove hasn't got vales upon seals upon other valves which perish due to the nature of the fuel being burned.

Combined with the cost of yearly servicing, it could work out to be £150-200 more expensive per year to run. If diesel were significantly cheaper you could offset the cost, but I only see the price going one way (thanks HMRC!).

 

Up until a couple of weeks ago, I would likely have agreed that diesel and solid fuel are not all that dissimilar regarding price & efficiency etc.

 

To be honest, the thing scares me now, I don't want to die in my sleep. It has soured me against diesel stoves.

 

I appreciate the post though!!!!

[luggsy]

For Cleaning I usely do every 10-14 days quick hover out then I put a stove cleaning tablet in keeps it very clean , can't see how I would get any fumes coming in if the fire goes out the fuel shuts off , the only time we had any fumes come in was when it was very windy so I bought a H cowl no fumes since

[WJM]

I burn a Russboy tablet in my diesel stove periodically to keep it clean. Then every couple of months I do a full 'scrape and hoover' clean.

 

http://www.budgetchandlery.com/russboy-diesel-stove-tablets-10-pack-3786-p.asp

 

 

 

Also, I replaced my very ordinary chimney cowl with a Smokey Joe cowl and the improvement was massive - highly recommended.

 

http://www.smokiejoes.co.uk/cowls/boat/black.html

[douglas_ferguson1]

For Cleaning I usely do every 10-14 days quick hover out then I put a stove cleaning tablet in keeps it very clean , can't see how I would get any fumes coming in if the fire goes out the fuel shuts off , the only time we had any fumes come in was when it was very windy so I bought a H cowl no fumes since

At the rear of the stone, where the diesel enters the pot, there is a metal rod which is rotated to remove carbonation and allow free flow of the fuel.

 

This rod is encapsulated by two compression seals and two hex nuts which you should rotate to ensure that diesel cannot flow both along the rod to the burner but also the opposite direction leading outside the pot.

The rod heats extensively, so what can happen if a seal fails is diesel flows both in the pot and outside the pot along the rod, once the rod heats up it causes the diesel to evaporate, theres your fumes.

 

I do not know if the refleks has this system, the bubble does. It can basically bypass the security measures put in place to stop over heating etc.

[luggsy]

The reflex has a rod that you push in and out every 4/5 days to keep the fuel entery hole clear link for the stove tables http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/112170935654?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[douglas_ferguson1]

The reflex has a rod that you push in and out every 4/5 days to keep the fuel entery hole clear link for the stove tables http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/112170935654?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Cheers mate, will have a look at them.

 

Yeah be careful of that rod, there will be seals that stop diesel coming out along the handle, which will then evaporate ad those things get HOT, I don't know how old your stove is but they generally perish after a few years or so I'm told.

[Sea Dog]

Have you had a chat with Harworth Heating about your issue? I know little about their oil stoves but have one of their solid fuel corner stoves which is certainly decent quality and I think they're a very reputable company. I'd be inclined to wonder whether your issue wasn't caused by human error at a previous "service" rather than something wrong in the design, in which case you may not need a wholesale change. In the absence of owner comments so far, those servicing costs sound rather high too - they'd surely not sell many with that sort of annual premium! Their website is pretty helpful: I'm on the mobile otherwise I'd provide a link, but Google will get you there nearly as quick.

[koukouvagia]

Have you noted that the instructions for a Refleks specifically state that the cleaning pin should not be pushed in when the stove is lit otherwise "there can be heat transference through the pin which destroys the rubber O-ring"?

Edited February 9, 2017 by koukouvagia

[Robbo]

There's pro and cons to both diesel and multi fuel but IMHO multi fuel stoves need more "servicing" over the years than the diesel drip fed ones. MF may be more simplier, but the surfaces do get a lot hotter which causes the issues.

Am I correct in believing diesel stoves don't burn as hot as multifuel stoves? Im talking output not burn efficiency.

To heat the space Im considering a 7kw multifuel stove (reminder Im on a 57ft boat), would this be sufficient? Even being next to the cratch doors? I know this is not an ideal location but Im trying to work with what I've got, I don't want to move it unless totally necessary.

 

With a 4-5kw MF stove you can get around 7kw out of it as you can overfire it. You can't do this with a drip fed one. 3-4kw should be enough to heat the whole boat, your problem is more distributing the heat to the other end.

I have been on the phone to a guy who services these, its nearly £200 not including parts! This should be done yearly.

 

Remember you'll need to service the MF as well, both MF and DF stoves are fairly simple devices so if you need someone to service it will cost roughly the same.

I am considering removing the backboiler system, relying upon immersion to heat my water whilst in the marina and the engine when out and about, do many have this arrangement?

 

If your having issues heating the other end of the boat this is a daft idea no matter what stove you end up with. I would use a pump to improve the circulation and perhaps insulate where you touch the hot pipes.

[douglas_ferguson1]

Have you noted that the instructions for a Refleks specifically state that the cleaning pin should not be pushed in when the stove is lit otherwise "there can be heat transference through the pin which destroys the rubber O-ring"?

Yes I have seen this also mentioned within the instructions for the bubble though I generally clean once per fortnight as per the reccomendations within the user guide.

I ggenerally allow the stove to cool for 1-2 hours as I have to put my hand into the pot to extract carbon, there isnt really an explanation as to why the seal has gone, it must have perished over time

There's pro and cons to both diesel and multi fuel but IMHO multi fuel stoves need more "servicing" over the years than the diesel drip fed ones. MF may be more simplier, but the surfaces do get a lot hotter which causes the issues.

 

With a 4-5kw MF stove you can get around 7kw out of it as you can overfire it. You can't do this with a drip fed one. 3-4kw should be enough to heat the whole boat, your problem is more distributing the heat to the other end.

 

Remember you'll need to service the MF as well, both MF and DF stoves are fairly simple devices so if you need someone to service it will cost roughly the same.

 

If your having issues heating the other end of the boat this is a daft idea no matter what stove you end up with. I would use a pump to improve the circulation and perhaps insulate where you touch the hot pipes.

I presently have a stove fan to try to blow some warm air to the other end of the boat which is effective up until the corridor to the toilet, being only 2 foot wide the air generally doesn't circulate that far.

 

I do have a pump in place on the back boiler as I don't trust gravity fed systems, as I worry the flow rate won't be enough and water will boil in the back boiler.

 

Do you think a mini stove in the rear cabin would be an option? I have seen some rated at 2.5ish kw.

Have you had a chat with Harworth Heating about your issue? I know little about their oil stoves but have one of their solid fuel corner stoves which is certainly decent quality and I think they're a very reputable company. I'd be inclined to wonder whether your issue wasn't caused by human error at a previous "service" rather than something wrong in the design, in which case you may not need a wholesale change. In the absence of owner comments so far, those servicing costs sound rather high too - they'd surely not sell many with that sort of annual premium! Their website is pretty helpful: I'm on the mobile otherwise I'd provide a link, but Google will get you there nearly as quick.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking Haworth at all in any way shape or form, there is a reason people buy their products.

 

My concern is the perishable items, such as o-rings etc. As diesel isnt a kind substance to rubber or any kind my concern is that this will happen again and potentially cause more serious problems.

 

In not specifically pointing the finger at this particular stove, my present concern is diesel in general, a system which can allow backflow of fuel from what can become an open hole is what is worrying me, it is present on all diesel stones as far as I'm aware

[Robbo]

Yes I have seen this also mentioned within the instructions for the bubble though I generally clean once per fortnight as per the reccomendations within the user guide.

I ggenerally allow the stove to cool for 1-2 hours as I have to put my hand into the pot to extract carbon, there isnt really an explanation as to why the seal has gone, it must have perished over time

 

I presently have a stove fan to try to blow some warm air to the other end of the boat which is effective up until the corridor to the toilet, being only 2 foot wide the air generally doesn't circulate that far.

I do have a pump in place on the back boiler as I don't trust gravity fed systems, as I worry the flow rate won't be enough and water will boil in the back boiler.

Do you think a mini stove in the rear cabin would be an option? I have seen some rated at 2.5ish kw.

are your radiators properly sized and getting hot?

[douglas_ferguson1]

are your radiators properly sized and getting hot?

To be fair, I think that I could do with a further rad. GGenerallythr tip of the radiator hits 60 degrees, bottom being 55ish, which to my understanding is at the lower end of what is regarded as "acceptable" for heat dispersion.

 

Problem is I can't get it any hotter, that is with the stove at full whack.

 

My pump has 3 speed settings with the top being unacceptable due to noise, it is situated near the bed. I have tried using all 3 speed setting and none show any measurable improvement in surface temperature