Waterheaters

[sunho]

Hi All,

I would like to put a water heater in the bathroom/shower room, I would like it to supply hot water for the shower and sink also the kitchen sink, any recommendations an water heaters without costing loads and any regulations for safety cert to look out for?
Thanks again
Darren

[Alan de Enfield]

The Regulations re-enact, with certain changes, the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations (GSIUR)1994, introduced under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 (HSWA) and apply in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. They cover requirements for the safe installation and maintenance of gas appliances, flues, meters and pipework etc.

• For all property, the Regulations require that: all work to gas appliances and fittings shall be carried out by a competent and suitably qualified engineer who is GasSafe (previously CORGI – Council for Registered Gas Installers) registered.
• only ‘room-sealed’ appliances may now be installed in a room used or intended to be used as a bathroom or shower room. Furthermore, appliances with a gross heat output of more than 14 kilowatts installed in a room used or intended to be used as sleeping accommodation must be room-sealed and those of 14 kW or less must either be a ‘room-sealed’ type or incorporate a safety control device designed to shut down the appliance if there is a build-up of combustion products in the room concerned.

 

The 'standard' type of boat water heater (Morco etc) are not room-sealed and would therefore not pass.

Room-sealed basically means that it draws its air supply from 'outside' and the exhaust gasses all go 'outside'.

 

I believe that different regs apply if it is a 'leisure boat' (not a liveaboard).

 

Check with the BSS,

[sunho]

The Regulations re-enact, with certain changes, the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations (GSIUR)1994, introduced under the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 (HSWA) and apply in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. They cover requirements for the safe installation and maintenance of gas appliances, flues, meters and pipework etc.

• For all property, the Regulations require that: all work to gas appliances and fittings shall be carried out by a competent and suitably qualified engineer who is GasSafe (previously CORGI – Council for Registered Gas Installers) registered.
• only ‘room-sealed’ appliances may now be installed in a room used or intended to be used as a bathroom or shower room. Furthermore, appliances with a gross heat output of more than 14 kilowatts installed in a room used or intended to be used as sleeping accommodation must be room-sealed and those of 14 kW or less must either be a ‘room-sealed’ type or incorporate a safety control device designed to shut down the appliance if there is a build-up of combustion products in the room concerned.

 

The 'standard' type of boat water heater (Morco etc) are not room-sealed and would therefore not pass.

Room-sealed basically means that it draws its air supply from 'outside' and the exhaust gasses all go 'outside'.

 

I believe that different regs apply if it is a 'leisure boat' (not a liveaboard).

 

Check with the BSS,

Hi Alan

That's why I was asking, there are a lot of liveaboards with water heaters but most are in the galley. Is it to do with the area size, steam from the water or the waterheater, fumes so on? Obviously flues do most of extracting fumes.

Regards

Darren

[Alan de Enfield]

Hi Alan

That's why I was asking, there are a lot of liveaboards with water heaters but most are in the galley. Is it to do with the area size, steam from the water or the waterheater, fumes so on? Obviously flues do most of extracting fumes.

Regards

Darren

 

I only know what I have read about this - I am NOT involved in gas installations or have any great gas knowledge.

 

My understanding is that there are a number of reasons

1) A bathroom is normally 'small' and has limited air supply as the windows are closed, no draughts etc.

2) The 'moisture' content in the air (when the shower is running) has some effect on the efficiency of the burn of the flame and can cause Carbon Monoxide

3) Possible 'blow back' of fumes into a small space.

 

Talk with the BSS bods, or a qualified LPG gas Boat installer.

You only get one life.

[cuthound]

It is to do with fumes from the non-room sealed heater venting onto a small area shower room. Also as the shower room is likely to be steamy, you are less likely to notice if the flame colour changes from blue (good combustion) to yellow (poor combustion).

 

Poor combustion results in carbon monoxide gas (CO) being produced, and CO kills a handful of boaters per year (although most of these are killed by faulty stoves rather than water heaters).

 

Edited for spillung herrors and to acknowledge that Alan got there first whilst I was typing.

Edited January 22, 2017 by cuthound

[Richard10002]

If you are going to fit a new gas powered water heater these days it makes sense for it to be room sealed, whatever the regs might say for leisure boats - and no sense for it not to be room sealed.

 

I think that if there is already a water heater on board, (not in a bedroom or bath/shower room, and it was fitted before the room sealed regs, it can pass the BSS on a leisure boat, (maybe a liveaboard, but I dont know).

 

I would guess that when liveaboards have their BSS test they might state that their boat is a leisure

[sunho]

If you are going to fit a new gas powered water heater these days it makes sense for it to be room sealed, whatever the regs might say for leisure boats - and no sense for it not to be room sealed.

 

I think that if there is already a water heater on board, (not in a bedroom or bath/shower room, and it was fitted before the room sealed regs, it can pass the BSS on a leisure boat, (maybe a liveaboard, but I dont know).

 

I would guess that when liveaboards have their BSS test they might state that their boat is a leisure

 

Hi Richard

I have a complete rebuild, so it will be a new water heater. So it needs to be a sealed waterheater?

[W+T]

these are ok to use

 

http://www.morcoproducts.co.uk/stock-5-39/Water_Heaters/F11EL.html

[Richard10002]

 

Hi Richard

I have a complete rebuild, so it will be a new water heater. So it needs to be a sealed waterheater?

 

I dont know for certain whether the regulations which would apply to you require room sealed but, given the cost and the safety involved, I'd fit room sealed - particularly if fitting out from scratch.

[Alan de Enfield]

From the BSS website :

 

Carrying out 'work on the gas system of boats used for primarily residential purposes fall within scope of a piece of UK legislation known as the Gas Safety [installation and Use] Regulations (GSIUR).

As such, anyone contracted to 'work' on the LPG system of a boat in scope must be by law Gas Safe registered. As the definition of 'work' covers the removal and replacement of the nipple on a gas tightness-test point so this law also covers carrying out BSS tightness-test with a manometer.

This means that if a boat is in scope of GSIUR and the BSS Examiner is not Gas Safe registered, he or she can only carry out a full BSS Examination if:

• a bubble tester is fitted and correctly located; or,
• the examiner observes a Gas Safe registered technician carrying out the tightness-test with a manometer.

 

 

If you are changing your non-room sealed instantaneous water heater it's strongly recommended that you consider room sealed alternatives.

The production of carbon monoxide at low rates over a period of time can lead to dangerous accumulations of this noxious gas in enclosed spaces. For this reason appliances which operate for extended periods, and particularly during the night, must either be fitted with effective devices which automatically turn them off if carbon monoxide is detected or be of a room-sealed type.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

 

Hi Richard

I have a complete rebuild, so it will be a new water heater. So it needs to be a sealed waterheater?

 

 

No it doesn't. An open flue water heater is fine if fitted correctly.

 

As soon as you go to a room sealed water heater you'll need a 240Vac electricity supply for trhe flue fan and electronics. In addition they suffer from much bigger 'latency', i.e. you need to run more cold water through them (to drain) before hot water arrives at the tap than with an open flue Morco. So you waste more water EVERY TIME you turn a hot tap on.

 

In addtition the vertical flue is not removable for going under bridges. FIne if you never or rarely go anywhere but for CCing, most inconventient.

[alan_fincher]

In addtition the vertical flue is not removable for going under bridges. FIne if you never or rarely go anywhere but for CCing, most inconventient.

 

I am aware of at least two boats that use the F11E balanced flue boiler, but have got away without having the massive flue on the roof, which, like you, I have always understood to be a bit of a show-stopper.

 

In each case they are using an alternate, (and I think self designed and constructed) flue, and presumably their BSS man is happy with the arrangement, even though I'm sure Morco say you must use their long flue, and not modify it. These flues are lower than even the standard Morco one for their open flued D61.

 

That said it would take a lot to persuade me to fit anything other than the standard open flued D61 model,at half the price and with none of the complexities. My BSS inspector was very happy with our newly installed one, but I stress I am not a full time live aboard.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

No it doesn't. An open flue water heater is fine if fitted correctly.

 

 

 

In a Liveaboard boat, in a bathroom ?

 

Are you suggesting that the GSIUR does not apply ?

[stegra]

Is there any reason that a caravan water heater can't be used? Both the Malaga and the Truma are room sealed, made for LPG, have 12v control voltage and can have 240v heater options to save gas when mains is available or speed up heating when used with gas. The tank capacities at 13 litres and 10 litres may seem small but the temperatures reach 70°C so need plenty of cold mixed in. No good for a calorifier of course.

[Richard10002]

My boat has a Truma combined water heater and hot air heating system. It heats 12 litres of water to a very hot temperature.

 

The hot air is only really enough to take the chill off the boat if it's cold and wintry. 12 litres of hot water is nowhere near enough to have a decent shower. On my previous boat with a 33 litre calorifier, I could just about have a quick'ish shower.

 

I also have a Rinnai gas water heater which passed the BSS in 2014, but I don't live aboard.

[sunho]

From the BSS website :

 

Carrying out 'work on the gas system of boats used for primarily residential purposes fall within scope of a piece of UK legislation known as the Gas Safety [installation and Use] Regulations (GSIUR).

As such, anyone contracted to 'work' on the LPG system of a boat in scope must be by law Gas Safe registered. As the definition of 'work' covers the removal and replacement of the nipple on a gas tightness-test point so this law also covers carrying out BSS tightness-test with a manometer.

This means that if a boat is in scope of GSIUR and the BSS Examiner is not Gas Safe registered, he or she can only carry out a full BSS Examination if:

• a bubble tester is fitted and correctly located; or,
• the examiner observes a Gas Safe registered technician carrying out the tightness-test with a manometer.

 

 

If you are changing your non-room sealed instantaneous water heater it's strongly recommended that you consider room sealed alternatives.

The production of carbon monoxide at low rates over a period of time can lead to dangerous accumulations of this noxious gas in enclosed spaces. For this reason appliances which operate for extended periods, and particularly during the night, must either be fitted with effective devices which automatically turn them off if carbon monoxide is detected or be of a room-sealed type.

Hi Allan

I have just been reading that and was going to put it on my self, looks like the rules will change to every boat having room-sealed. They aint the cheapest out the lot, I have seen on caravan sites Morco F11EL for £400.00 but then its a lot more when you include flue pipe etc, but what cost can you put on life? Thanks to all but if there are any other makes that are room-sealed and cheaper let me know please I have about a month to decide on which way to go for water heater.

[sunho]

 

 

No it doesn't. An open flue water heater is fine if fitted correctly.

 

As soon as you go to a room sealed water heater you'll need a 240Vac electricity supply for trhe flue fan and electronics. In addition they suffer from much bigger 'latency', i.e. you need to run more cold water through them (to drain) before hot water arrives at the tap than with an open flue Morco. So you waste more water EVERY TIME you turn a hot tap on.

 

In addtition the vertical flue is not removable for going under bridges. FIne if you never or rarely go anywhere but for CCing, most inconventient.

 

Now, do I re-design my galley and put the waterheater in there? I do not want to use 240v or minimise where I go grrrr frustrating!!!!

Is there any reason that a caravan water heater can't be used? Both the Malaga and the Truma are room sealed, made for LPG, have 12v control voltage and can have 240v heater options to save gas when mains is available or speed up heating when used with gas. The tank capacities at 13 litres and 10 litres may seem small but the temperatures reach 70°C so need plenty of cold mixed in. No good for a calorifier of course.

 

eeerrrrrmmmmmm???? Anyone!!!!

[stegra]

My boat has a Truma combined water heater and hot air heating system. It heats 12 litres of water to a very hot temperature.

 

The hot air is only really enough to take the chill off the boat if it's cold and wintry. 12 litres of hot water is nowhere near enough to have a decent shower. On my previous boat with a 33 litre calorifier, I could just about have a quick'ish shower.

 

I also have a Rinnai gas water heater which passed the BSS in 2014, but I don't live aboard.

 

But that 12 litres is heated up to 70 degrees, far too hot to shower under. If the cold water is at 15 degrees and 42.5 degrees is an acceptable temperature, you'll get 24 litres. What temperature was the water in the calorifier reaching?

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Now, do I re-design my galley and put the waterheater in there? I do not want to use 240v or minimise where I go grrrr frustrating!!!!

 

eeerrrrrmmmmmm???? Anyone!!!!

 

Why have one anyway ?

 

Go for a diesel powered eberspacher, it will provide continuous, unlimited hot water for the shower, and heat radiators as well.

[sunho]

 

Why have one anyway ?

 

Go for a diesel powered eberspacher, it will provide continuous, unlimited hot water for the shower, and heat radiators as well.

I had Eberspacher on the last boat and yes they are great small compact and use little diesel they are ideal on in my opinion 45/50 foot plus, but I don't want to go for one on this project because I want to keep cost as low as possible, I set myself a budget which is £2000.00 on a 30 foot refit. Eberspacher plus ++++ will blow the budget out of the water, excuse the pun

[W+T]

 

Why have one anyway ?

 

Go for a diesel powered eberspacher, it will provide continuous, unlimited hot water for the shower, and heat radiators as well.

 

 

I wouldnt mind going the Berber way, only reason is having petrol and LPG i dont want diesel to store aswell.

 

After much looking around i decided on the Morco F-11EL, all i need extra is a small 100w inverter to fire it up and run the fan when in use.

 

 

 

I see getting a room sealed the best and safest way to go on a new fit out even if replacing a heater. Better safe than sorry for an extra hundred quid or so.

[bizzard]

The beauty of water heaters like Morco 61, Paloma, Rinnai is that they don't need any electricity, are very reasonably priced still, ideal if you have no landline mains electricity. They are definatly making a comeback. A bit like Tramcars, folk are seeing a bit of sense, again.

Edited January 22, 2017 by bizzard

[stegra]

 

Now, do I re-design my galley and put the waterheater in there? I do not want to use 240v or minimise where I go grrrr frustrating!!!!

 

eeerrrrrmmmmmm???? Anyone!!!!

 

For what it's worth, I have a Malaga in my camper. Obviously, there are limitations but it is very useful. I guess everyone's expectations are different. I've found that with careful use it works fine. When showering, I close the tap to shampoo my hair etc. It's stored water so none of the problems with it being cold for a bit when switching on again that occur with instant heaters. This might be an advantage if there's a limited water supply. My use has mostly been in warmer seasons so there'll be a compromise when the cold supply is closer to zero degrees. I like the fact that it can be tucked away anywhere as long as there's an outside wall; mine's tucked away under a wardrobe with the control in the kitchen. On a boat it'll probably need to be above the gunwales so that might limit things a bit. It's been in seven years and no issues with reliability. Being 12v is good and it uses no power when it's not switched on. If you want a powerful shower lasting 20 minutes then it won't be for you.

[MtB]

 

In a Liveaboard boat, in a bathroom ?

 

Are you suggesting that the GSIUR does not apply ?

 

 

See the second sentence of my post you quoted.

 

"....if fitted correctly."

Fitting it correctly precludes installation in a room containing a bath or shower.

The beauty of water heaters like Morco 61, Paloma, Rinnai is that they don't need any electricity, are very reasonably priced still, ideal if you have no landline mains electricity. They are definatly making a comeback. A bit like Tramcars, folk are seeing a bit of sense, again.

 

 

As far as I know the Paloma and the Rinnai are long obsolete. Only the Morco is still available.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

See the second sentence of my post you quoted.

 

"....if fitted correctly."

Fitting it correctly precludes installation in a room containing a bath or shower.

 

 

The OP made clear he wanted to install in a bathroom - he obviously was not aware that it was not allowed, and, your potentially misleading reply did nothing to help

clarify.

 

I would suggest that if giving advice it should be abundantly clear what you are saying to those who don't have the knowledge, and hence asking the question in the first place.

If he knew how to 'install it correctly' then he would not need to ask the question.