Please Help, I have a LEAK!

[Tony Brooks]

Hi Tony,

 

I have taken a photo of my calorifier. I'm still trying to identify where the water is escaping. I have added the photo as an attachment.

 

I'd be very grateful if you can advise.

 

 

Daniel

 

Calorifier.jpg

 

 

Please note, for some reason the photo needs rotating right so that it is upright. It is a vertical calorifier.

 

 

Thanks Ian

 

 

Right

 

After trying to save, rotate, and enhance the photo there seems to be a dark stain at the bottom left of the coil boss but I do not have enough detail to see if it is a leak. I must say the soldering around the disk that the coil boss is fitted into does not look like a manufacturers effort so it might be a repaie and is thus suspect. The only way to tell is to dry and clean the area, tape some tissue onto that area and see if it gets wet when the system is working.

 

The plastic connection onto the coil boss looks like some form of tap connector to me and these usually involve a soft washer sitting on a land on the spigot that fits into the coil boss. Is this in good order? The PTFE tape on the threads is unlikely to effect any sort of permanent repair. The joint has to come apart to see exactly what you have and to replace and soft washers that have failed. Working on this requires the calorifier to be drained.

 

You have a gate valve on the heating pipe so turning this off will isolate one side of the joint. If you also have one on the other side of the coil (another pipe not in the photo) you could turn that off and only lose the water that is in the coil when you take the union apart. If there is not another one then get an assistant who can stick a cork, his thump, or his hand into/over the coil boss when you take the union apart. working on this requires the heating system to be isolated or drained.

[Tony Brooks]

 

Just to clarify, Tony, are you saying that if we left the boat for a few days in very cold weather we should turn off the pump and open all taps without any recourse to draining the calorifier? Somebody advised me that a couple of days where the temperature was -4C was a rough guideline where ice damage could be possible. Our calorifier is in a separate cupboard in the aft room just before the steps up to the deck. Please also seem my reply to the very helpful information you provided on my own thread.

 

I am not giving definitive advice, there are too many variables that I do not know about. I would suggest that around 0C is when water starts to turn to ice.

 

Plastic plumbing is far more tolerant of freezing damage although not immune to it in bad conditions. However the damage is more likely to be a joint that pushes apart rather than a split pipe.

 

The water under the ice is a liquid so is above freezing point. If your calorifier is well down in the boat with little hull or base plate insulation some heat will pass through the hull from the unfrozen water making freezing damage to the calorifier less likely.

 

If you visit the boat every weekend and get the calorifier up to temperature its insulation will keep the water in it above freezing for probably several days.

 

The choice is yours, I can not advise but I no longer drain my calorifier down but I do pump the water out of the system (south Midlands location)..

 

 

 

[bizzard]

I think under the rear deck in the engine space of a cruiser stern boat is a daft place to put a calorifier, especially on a narrow boat. Apart from the possible freezing up issue the damn things along with a row of batteries down there make a horrid awkward place to work in, on the engine and anything else you need to see to down there. There's also the heat issue down there especially in the summer ie Engine running, calorifier hot and if it has a steel deck with the sun beating on it, wow, the heat, engine breathing hot air which will reduce its power a bit, its oil possibly getting too hot, batteries getting cooked, paint peeling off.

The best place for calorifiers in my opinion is in an airing cupboard just inside and to the side of the rear doors where it will air your clothes and add a bit of warmth in the boat whilst cruising and still be fairly close enough to the engine to not lose much efficiency.

[Froggy]

 

I am not giving definitive advice, there are too many variables that I do not know about. I would suggest that around 0C is when water starts to turn to ice.

 

Plastic plumbing is far more tolerant of freezing damage although not immune to it in bad conditions. However the damage is more likely to be a joint that pushes apart rather than a split pipe.

 

The water under the ice is a liquid so is above freezing point. If your calorifier is well down in the boat with little hull or base plate insulation some heat will pass through the hull from the unfrozen water making freezing damage to the calorifier less likely.

 

If you visit the boat every weekend and get the calorifier up to temperature its insulation will keep the water in it above freezing for probably several days.

 

The choice is yours, I can not advise but I no longer drain my calorifier down but I do pump the water out of the system (south Midlands location)..

 

 

 

 

Thanks Tony, again very helpful advice. I'm just a little unclear with your final sentence: would you simply drain the water out of the system by turning off the pump and then opening the taps until the water ceases running, then leaving the taps open? I appreciate that what you are saying is opinion only and that nobody should ever take any advice as definitive since any action taken has to be their own decision.

[Froggy]

I think under the rear deck in the engine space of a cruiser stern boat is a daft place to put a calorifier, especially on a narrow boat. Apart from the possible freezing up issue the damn things along with a row of batteries down there make a horrid awkward place to work in, on the engine and anything else you need to see to down there. There's also the heat issue down there especially in the summer ie Engine running, calorifier hot and if it has a steel deck with the sun beating on it, wow, the heat, engine breathing hot air which will reduce its power a bit, its oil possibly getting too hot, batteries getting cooked, paint peeling off.

The best place for calorifiers in my opinion is in an airing cupboard just inside and to the side of the rear doors where it will air your clothes and add a bit of warmth in the boat whilst cruising and still be fairly close enough to the engine to not lose much efficiency.

 

That's exactly where ours is, bizzard, with a small cupboard above it. Our boat was fitted by JD Boats and was no doubt a nice job when new, although a few later 'enhancements' plus neglect haven't exactly added to its charm. It looks as though the OP has a similar arrangement. Cambodan, sorry for hijacking your thread a little, I sincerely hope that you soon have the issue resolved and that you manage to take some time off to celebrate the New Year.

[Tony Brooks]

 

Thanks Tony, again very helpful advice. I'm just a little unclear with your final sentence: would you simply drain the water out of the system by turning off the pump and then opening the taps until the water ceases running, then leaving the taps open? I appreciate that what you are saying is opinion only and that nobody should ever take any advice as definitive since any action taken has to be their own decision.

 

By opening the taps and turning the pump ON (with engine running to save battery charge) until no more water is running. Then leave the taps open and turn the pump off.

[blackrose]

As previously mentioned, close valve from front tank to pump, and turn off pump. Turn on a hot tap (to let air into the system as you drain), and drain calorifier (no need to disturb the PRV) .

I actually found that without disturbing the PRV it was impossible to drain the calorifier because of the vacuum inside. I ended up using the PRV to let air into the calorifier and draining into a washing up bowl bit by bit, closing the PRV between to stop the flow. Quite a useful control.

Edited January 1, 2017 by blackrose

[Tony Brooks]

I actually found that without disturbing the PRV it was impossible to drain the calorifier because of the vacuum inside. I ended up using the PRV to let air into the calorifier and draining into a washing up bowl bit by bit, closing the PRV between to stop the flow. Quite a useful control.

 

I agree that is far from uncommon in practice.

[Froggy]

 

That's exactly where ours is, bizzard, with a small cupboard above it. Our boat was fitted by JD Boats and was no doubt a nice job when new, although a few later 'enhancements' plus neglect haven't exactly added to its charm. It looks as though the OP has a similar arrangement. Cambodan, sorry for hijacking your thread a little, I sincerely hope that you soon have the issue resolved and that you manage to take some time off to celebrate the New Year.

 

Ok, thanks for this Tony, but given that our water tank takes about 40 minutes to fill and who knows how long to empty from full I think we'll avoid this if possible. Additionally, I know that some pump manufacturers don't recommend running the pump for more than about 10 minutes at a time.

[Froggy]

Going off on a slight tangent, we probably need to add some antifreeze to the engine and eberspacher header tanks. Would i be right to assume that you would use the same stuff as you'd put in a car from Halfords or the like, or do boat chandlers sell something specific?

[bizzard]

The calorifier can also be emptied by removing one of the fittings on top of it. Insert a length of tube down into it connected to a small pump like a drill pump and pump it out, or even siphon it out. If the water in your area is hard I'd use distilled, de-ironized,''cheap enough'' or filtered rain water in the engine and heating circuits rather tap water.

[Neil Smith]

 

Ok, thanks for this Tony, but given that our water tank takes about 40 minutes to fill and who knows how long to empty from full I think we'll avoid this if possible. Additionally, I know that some pump manufacturers don't recommend running the pump for more than about 10 minutes at a time.

You don't need to empty the tank just the pipes, turn off the stop cock between tank and pump first.

 

Neil

[Froggy]

You don't need to empty the tank just the pipes, turn off the stop cock between tank and pump first.

 

Neil

 

Ah, thanks for clarifying.

[Tony Brooks]

You don't need to empty the tank just the pipes, turn off the stop cock between tank and pump first.

 

Neil

 

That stop cock is often a gate valve which, as they age are often very difficult if not impossible to fully turn off. This means that if by some chance water was left in the pipe, it froze and popped a joint or ff the pipe split you could still end up with the tank draining over the boat floor. I pump the water out of the tank as I described just to be sure. However I do not fill the tank the day before or even the day before that. I try to end up with a fairly empty tank before I start.

 

Once the stop cock is turned off the pump can not pump much water and is very unlikely to put slugs of air into the pipes so you would need to split joints to drain them unless you have drain points fitted.

 

We will continue to differ on this one.

[ditchcrawler]

I actually found that without disturbing the PRV it was impossible to drain the calorifier because of the vacuum inside. I ended up using the PRV to let air into the calorifier and draining into a washing up bowl bit by bit, closing the PRV between to stop the flow. Quite a useful control.

Didn't opening a hot tap somewhere help?

[Tony Brooks]

Didn't opening a hot tap somewhere help?

 

Didn't on my boat. I suspect it introduced an air blockage somewhere. It was much easier to lodge the PRV in the open position.

 

 

Edited to add that if the taps have free jumpers in them the the depression caused by the draining could pull the washers onto their seats and for a seal.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Tony Brooks

[mayalld]

Hi Tony,

 

I've stripped back a line of insulation all the way to the top. I think you were right when you said it might not be from the union. It appears to be coming from the top of the unit.

 

I am now just monitoring (waiting), with some newspaper to see if I can narrow it down to where it is coming from.

 

I'll post in the next 30 minutes when I know a bit more..

 

 

Cheers - Daniel

 

OK,

 

The Gate valve is the cold water supply.

 

Turn off the pump, close that valve and vent the PRV.

 

If you now reckon that the water is coming from higher up, then the Immersion Blanking plug is a real favourite here, Particularly as it is showing some burring and shiny metal.

 

Basically, these are a PIG to get right.

 

You need them to seal, but people are often tempted to use stilsons and tighten them to get rid of drips, and this can fracture the tank.

 

If you trace the water to the thread on this plug;

 

• Open all you taps, hot and cold.
• carefully remove the plug
• remove all old PTFE
• re-apply PTFE
• re-insert, but DON'T over tighten.
• close taps, reopen gate valve and turn on pump

Now, if it is still leaking....

 

I have my opinion, others will have their opinion

 

My opinion is spanner on the blanking plug, then tap the spanner round with a hammer to seal. Don't just pull on the spanner.

 

Reasoning: The sudden tap of the hammer should cause the plug to turn a little in its thread. pulling on it will instead transfer the force to the cylinder which may well crumple.

 

As I say, others may differ.