Shortboat "Shirley"

[jenevers]

Anyone know the whereabouts/fate of shortboat "Shirley" (ex "A42") thought to have been in the London area.

Edited February 25, 2016 by jenevers

[pete harrison]

I am pretty sure this is it (taken from Jim Shead's website):

 

Shirley Westwood Built by Unknown - Length : 18.9 metres ( 62 feet ) - Beam : 4.31 metres ( 14 feet 2 inches ) - Draft : 0.76 metres ( 2 feet 6 inches ). Metal hull N/A power of 18 HP. Registered with Canal & River Trust number 63726 as an Unpowered Unpowered Craft. ( Last updated on Wednesday 22nd May 2013 )

 

and if so it was in use as a house boat at Cowley in 2006 having already been renamed

[jenevers]

I am pretty sure this is it (taken from Jim Shead's website):

 

Shirley Westwood Built by Unknown - Length : 18.9 metres ( 62 feet ) - Beam : 4.31 metres ( 14 feet 2 inches ) - Draft : 0.76 metres ( 2 feet 6 inches ). Metal hull N/A power of 18 HP. Registered with Canal & River Trust number 63726 as an Unpowered Unpowered Craft. ( Last updated on Wednesday 22nd May 2013 )

 

and if so it was in use as a house boat at Cowley in 2006 having already been renamed

Excellent detective work! It certainly sounds like that may be A42, going off the dimensions. All we need now is a photo if anyone is in the Cowley area.

[zenataomm]

Is this the one that was on The Soar Gravel Run?

[pete harrison]

Is this the one that was on The Soar Gravel Run?

Yes

[jenevers]

Yes

Any photos anyone?

I "google earthed" Cowley and there's a few wide beam boats around the marina to the south west of the town.

May be one is A42??????

Not my neck of the woods.

[zenataomm]

It was owned for a short period (Pete, I'm sure you'll know precisely) by Ian Clifton, late builder of superb boats at Shardlow.

We took her out onto The Trent below Derwent Mouth one day (JP2 powered) and tried to "U" turn her in one go.

She got half way round and then skidded sideways like one of those water boatmen insects and we ended up up berry picking on the off side.

 

Shortly after that Ian sold her and bravely boated her single handed up the Trent & Misery to Stenson where she was craned out.

I saw her for the last time later on that same day as I drove into Derby and she passed me going the other way on the back of a low loader with Police outriders. Lamp posts and trees were breathing in as telegraph wires stretched and twanged.

[pete harrison]

It was owned for a short period (Pete, I'm sure you'll know precisely) by Ian Clifton, late builder of superb boats at Shardlow.

I am afraid I do not as these boats fall outside my field of research

[Pluto]

Shirley was originally A38, and was renamed when taken over by Albert Blundell around 1953. Built 1932, her official number for use on the docks and in the Mersey was 162378. The other A-boats ended up on the Wigan Power Station traffic and had their coamings removed so the power station grabs could get to the coal. A38 served Trafford Park Power Station which used suction for unloading, so she retained her coamings.

[kris88]

Is this the one that was on The Soar Gravel Run?

I was under the impression it was "Wye" that did the soar gravel run. I might be wrong, I met someone with footage of Wye on the soar, recently anyway.

Regards kris

[pete harrison]

Shirley was originally A38, and was renamed when taken over by Albert Blundell around 1953. Built 1932, her official number for use on the docks and in the Mersey was 162378.

My records indicate that A38 was health registered as Liverpool 1582 on 30 March 1933, and was re-registered to Henry Croasdale Ltd. on 26 January 1948. I have the Official Number for A38 as 162378. Interestingly Clive Guthrie's records give the transfer of ownership to Albert Blundell but with no re-naming.

 

My records indicate that A42 was health registered as Liverpool 1600 on 28 December 1933, and was re-registered to Henry Croasdale Ltd. on 10 February 1949 as SHIRLEY and then to Albert Blundell on 06 December 1949 still as SHIRLEY. I have the Official Number for A42 as 162396. Clive Guthrie's records do not not include Henry Croasdale Ltd. - and I suspect the renaming to SHIRLEY is relevant to Albert Blundell rather than Henry Croasdale Ltd. who does not appear to have renamed these boats.

 

I have not seen the Liverpool health register, instead taking details from a transcript that was sent to me (that I am currently unable to find to ensure any mistakes are not mine). Because of this, and that these boats fall outside my field of research I am happy to be corrected

[Pluto]

The A-boats have always been a bit of a mystery, particularly as in their final commercial days only A37, A39 and A41 seemed to have their name/number, the others were without for much of that time. Going back to the early 1970s, I was told that Shirley was A38, but that could be incorrect. Henry Croasdale, the coal merchant's correct name may have been Crosedale though both seem to have been used, is listed as having A38, A39 and A41 in the Blackburn registers, and my notes add A36 and A40, with A37 and A42 going directly to Hargreaves and A38 to Albert Blundell. Shirley was a member of his family, and he renamed Ainscough's Ironclad as Cadellis, from family members Christine, Agnes, Denise, -ell for Blundell, Irene and Shirley, IIRC. The names were used on his other boats, with Pluto becoming Denise. I suspect it is quite possible that A38 and A42 have become mixed up, given that they were pretty much worn out when Appleby's sold them c1950, and that afterwards the name/number was not always painted on the hull. In the early 1950s, short boats were often leased as required to coal carriers, which can make the boat registers unreliable as to ownership. Some certainly had their registration moved for just the short period involved, and at the time registers were becoming less important for local council officials to keep up-to-date. I only have one photo of Shirley which is below. It does show that in 1971, unlike the other A-boats, she still had her coamings, which would be one way of identifying her today.

[jenevers]

The A-boats have always been a bit of a mystery, particularly as in their final commercial days only A37, A39 and A41 seemed to have their name/number, the others were without for much of that time. Going back to the early 1970s, I was told that Shirley was A38, but that could be incorrect. Henry Croasdale, the coal merchant's correct name may have been Crosedale though both seem to have been used, is listed as having A38, A39 and A41 in the Blackburn registers, and my notes add A36 and A40, with A37 and A42 going directly to Hargreaves and A38 to Albert Blundell. Shirley was a member of his family, and he renamed Ainscough's Ironclad as Cadellis, from family members Christine, Agnes, Denise, -ell for Blundell, Irene and Shirley, IIRC. The names were used on his other boats, with Pluto becoming Denise. I suspect it is quite possible that A38 and A42 have become mixed up, given that they were pretty much worn out when Appleby's sold them c1950, and that afterwards the name/number was not always painted on the hull. In the early 1950s, short boats were often leased as required to coal carriers, which can make the boat registers unreliable as to ownership. Some certainly had their registration moved for just the short period involved, and at the time registers were becoming less important for local council officials to keep up-to-date. I only have one photo of Shirley which is below. It does show that in 1971, unlike the other A-boats, she still had her coamings, which would be one way of identifying her today.

Excellent information. Very interesting. Such a shame that there are so few photos of the Shortboats at work.

[fanshaft]

I was under the impression it was "Wye" that did the soar gravel run. I might be wrong, I met someone with footage of Wye on the soar, recently anyway.

Regards kris

 

Hi Kris, The Pontylue Sand & Ballast Co were adamant that having tried narrow boats experimentally they wanted wide boats on the job. Although tugs and pans would have been ideal, none were available, so I put together a small fleet pof L&L short boats: Wye (mine), Irwell (Northern Counties), Weaver (Derek Bent) and Shirley (Threefellows). As Threefellows were based locally Herbert Wood agreed to manage the contract. At the last minute the owners of Irwell and Weaver pulled out, perhaps because of the distance from base, and I managed to get Chris Topp to put his ex A&C fly boat June on as well though it turned out to be unwieldy and came off in November 1976. As this was not quite sufficient to meet the tonnage envisaged Pontylue relcuctantly agreed to try a narrow boat as well, and Whitby joined the fleet, later followed by others. So Shirley was, indeed, on the run right from day 1 (3rd May 1976) until the Area Engineer banned wide boats from the Soar after which it was narrow boats only. In the final years of operation tugs and wide beam pans were used. In some weeks up to 3500 tonnes was carried, which must have been over one million tonnes of ballast altogether, maybe two to three million in total over the twent year period of operation (there were breaks).

Regards

David L

Edited March 2, 2016 by fanshaft

[kris88]

 

Hi Kris, The Pontylue Sand & Ballast Co were adamant that having tried narrow boats experimentally they wanted wide boats on the job. Although tugs and pans would have been ideal, none were available, so I put together a small fleet pof L&L short boats: Wye (mine), Irwell (Northern Counties), Weaver (Derek Bent) and Shirley (Threefellows). As Threefellows were based locally Herbert Wood agreed to manage the contract. At the last minute the owners of Irwell and Weaver pulled out, perhaps because of the distance from base, and I managed to get Chris Topp to put his ex A&C fly boat June on as well though it turned out to be unwieldy and came off in November 1976. As this was not quite sufficient to meet the tonnage envisaged Pontylue relcuctantly agreed to try a narrow boat as well, and Whitby joined the fleet, later followed by others. So Shirley was, indeed, on the run right from day 1 (3rd May 1976) until the Area Engineer banned wide boats from the Soar after which it was narrow boats only. In the final years of operation tugs and wide beam pans were used. In some weeks up to 3500 tonnes was carried, which must have been over one million tonnes of ballast altogether, maybe two to three million in total over the twent year period of operation (there were breaks).

Regards

David L

Thanks for the clarification

 

Regards kris

[swift1894]

It was owned for a short period (Pete, I'm sure you'll know precisely) by Ian Clifton, late builder of superb boats at Shardlow.

We took her out onto The Trent below Derwent Mouth one day (JP2 powered) and tried to "U" turn her in one go.

She got half way round and then skidded sideways like one of those water boatmen insects and we ended up up berry picking on the off side.

d.

I believe that Shortboats are susceptible to skidding sideways, probably due to their rounded Chines, so they can't "grip" the water like a square section narrow boat or barge with leeboards.

[Pluto]

I believe that Shortboats are susceptible to skidding sideways, probably due to their rounded Chines, so they can't "grip" the water like a square section narrow boat or barge with leeboards.

Firstly, they are short boats to distinguish them from the long boats which could not go up Wigan Locks, and you certainly wouldn't call the latter 'Longboats', particularly as, unlike Yorkshire's keels, their origin owes little to Scandinavian traditions.

 

On steering, I found that Pluto, in still shallow water, would just go where you put the bow, and there was little in the way of sideways skidding. That tended to happen on deep flowing water, where you had to anticipate what was going to happen and get the boat in the correct position as early as possible. Short boats certainly handle differently to narrow boats, but are no more difficult to steer than other boats, in fact in still water I found short boats easier than narrow boats, though much of my experience with the latter was working Lapwing around Preston Brook and Anderton prior to the T&MC being dredged. Woe betide you if you were more than a few inches out of the channel!

[royg]

I am new to this forum. Apologies if anything goes awry.

Is Shirley A38 or A42? The answer lies on the port stern end where the name/number was stamped on the hull above the loaded waterline. Also the O. N. 162378 or 162396 was stamped on the stern end centrally behind stern post tiller. We confirmed this on the A 40 some 25 years ago, so boaters on the Grand Union at Cowley will have to get up close to confirm this, if the location is correct.

[bargemast]

I saw the A40 in august 2011 on the Meuse in Belgium, don't know if they're still there or maybe have continued to France or Holland.

 

Peter.

[royg]

Indeed, owners contacted me just prior to Christmas 2015 informing me the previous owner had died.

He had owned the boat over 25 years since 1972 after the cessation of Westwood Power Station traffic.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Lady Cassandra
Edited as requested by royg

[bargemast]

Indeed, owners contacted me just prior to Christmas 2015 informing me the previous owner had died.

He had owned the boat over 25 years since 1972 after the cessation of Westwood Power Station traffic.

 

It's always sad to hear about someones death even if you didn't know that person, but such is life, we all are only human beings and don't live as long as we would like, and sadly enough it's not just because of old age for some of them.

 

I remember that the A40 looked well looked after and had wheel-steering, they may have seen another shortboat in the South the "Nidd" that has been in France since a long time already.

 

Peter.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Lady Cassandra
Quoted post edited as requested by royg

[royg]

Photo of A 40 near Chorley Summer 1933, one of the seven Rank/B.I.T. Co. Ltd boat.

Apologies for small picture , my first attempt

[bargemast]

 

Photo of A 40 near Chorley Summer 1933, one of the seven Rank/B.I.T. Co. Ltd boat.

Apologies for small picture , my first attempt

 

Better a small picture than no picture at all, with a bit of experiencing you'll find a way of making them bigger.

 

Btw. nice picture anyway.

 

Peter.

[royg]

Follow up to my previous photo which seems to have gone awol.

B.I Transport Co. Ltd photo of two boats near Chorley Summer 1933.

Shows A 40 driving at A 38 in background, plus a dare devil diving off the

stern end with legs still showing above the waterline.

 

 

 

 

[royg]

 

Re post of earlier photo showing A 40 near Chorley Summer 1933 en route from Birkenhead to Blackburn.

Crew was Luke Pye Mate steering, Jack Bowen Third Man Cabin top starboard and Peter Gibbons Captain

Cabin Top centre, working three handed non stop. Later that Summer this boat holds the record for completing

three round trips on this run, a feat the owners said could not be done.