Boat re-fit advice

[KirstieH]

Hello

 

My husband and I are looking to live on a narrowboat full time with our dog. We have quite a list of requirements and I have planned the "Perfect" boat layout....the main problem is, that it doesn't exist in the real world

 

The perfect layout is: Trad stern to galley, through to salon with wood-burner, door to walk-through bathroom, door to study area with large wardrobe for dressing area, through to bedroom with cupboards and cross bed looking out to the bow.

 

I am thinking no longer than 58ft.

 

I wanted to find out (from those with experience) how tricky / expensive it is to change the layout of a boat...or if it would be better to buy a sail away and start from scratch..?

 

Thank you

 

[Paul C]

It would be better to more thoroughly understand WHY boats of that particular layout, are so rare/don't exist. There's only so much which can be done by reading on the internet about it.

 

Have you ever slept on a narrowboat, if so how long and in what season?

[Alan de Enfield]

" .....galley, through to salon with wood-burner, door to walk-through bathroom, door to study area with large wardrobe for dressing area, through to bedroom with cupboards and cross bed looking out to the bow".

 

I cannot see how that you will accommodate all of those rooms in 58 foot boat.

 

Take 8 feet off for Stern & Engine room

Take (normally) 8-9 feet off for the cratch & bow.

 

Leaves 42 feet

 

Galley - 6 feet

Saloon 15 feet (minimum 12 feet ?)

Bathroom 4 feet ( maybe 6 feet is better)

Study / Wardrobes / Dressing area 10 feet

Bedroom with cupboards (cross bed) 8 feet

 

Remember the boat is only 6 feet wide.

 

With having all those doors it will be like living in rooms of 6 feet x 6 feet x 6 feet, you should really consider having it more 'open plan' to maximise light and perceived space.

 

Just try making a box of the various room dimensions and try living in it - it really is small. Could you and your family live in one room of your house ? - remembering that it needs to include everything ( bathroom, Kitchen, Bedroom, lounge, storage etc etc)

[KirstieH]

Hello

 

Thanks for your reply. I have been researching the pros and cons for over a year and appreciate what you are saying. Living and working full time in Sussex doesn't offer a lot of time to experience long term living on one (

 

We have stayed on a few and know the following:

 

1) We like to be able to grab things from the kitchen whilst on the move / dump shopping in the kitchen when arriving home - though understand gas is typically stored at the bow

2) We have a dog who can be muddy and wouldn't want him to come directly into the lounge, the stern and kitchen offer a "Porch" to keep him whilst he is dried off.

3) Only like to "Step-on" from the stern end.

4) I need a larger bathroom to get ready in for work - I find the smaller wet room style too cramped for me.

5) I don't like stepping from the stern into a cramped cabin area - though it could work well as in wet weather

6) I am not keen on mid ship bed areas as my husband takes up a lot of space! - But understand it could be cold having the bedroom as the bow end.

 

I would of course be happy to listen to anyone with experience of having Dogs as to have they manage them in a small space. Or anyone who has experience of why this layout may not work!

 

All the best

 

Kirstie

[KirstieH]

" .....galley, through to salon with wood-burner, door to walk-through bathroom, door to study area with large wardrobe for dressing area, through to bedroom with cupboards and cross bed looking out to the bow".

 

I cannot see how that you will accommodate all of those rooms in 58 foot boat.

 

Take 8 feet off for Stern & Engine room

Take (normally) 8-9 feet off for the cratch & bow.

 

Leaves 42 feet

 

Galley - 6 feet

Saloon 15 feet (minimum 12 feet ?)

Bathroom 4 feet ( maybe 6 feet is better)

Study / Wardrobes / Dressing area 10 feet

Bedroom with cupboards (cross bed) 8 feet

 

Remember the boat is only 6 feet wide.

 

With having all those doors it will be like living in rooms of 6 feet x 6 feet x 6 feet, you should really consider having it more 'open plan' to maximise light and perceived space.

 

Just try making a box of the various room dimensions and try living in it - it really is small. Could you and your family live in one room of your house ? - remembering that it needs to include everything ( bathroom, Kitchen, Bedroom, lounge, storage etc etc)

 

Hello thank you for this.

 

It would only have doors which will slide to shut off the bathroom for guests. The rest will be open plan.

 

I planned it out on software and my hubby is a 3D visualiser so he is going to make it up in virtual reality to see how small it really is eek.

 

We did stay for 2 weeks (in gale force wind and hailstones) on one which was 42ft and it had plenty of room for us and the dog, so I though 58ft would be positively luxurious...lol

 

Funnily enough we are in the process of selling everything we have on eBay and are going to "mock up" the width and length of the boat in our tiny cottage to get a reality check.

 

Thanks so much for your useful advice

[bottle]

With a 'trad' stern you will need to bend and twist past the engine which will be just in side of the back doors.

 

Perhaps you should look at having a cruiser stern with a 'pram cover'

 

Works well with wet dogs and you can step immediately off the back deck into the galley if you want a rear galley.

[bag 'o' bones]

you have basically described our boat! except hat we have a semi trad stern and being only 48 foot minus the study area and cross bed.

 

We opted for separate length way beds that can be pulled together if required. Works really well.

[Paul C]

Hello

 

Thanks for your reply. I have been researching the pros and cons for over a year and appreciate what you are saying. Living and working full time in Sussex doesn't offer a lot of time to experience long term living on one (

 

We have stayed on a few and know the following:

 

1) We like to be able to grab things from the kitchen whilst on the move / dump shopping in the kitchen when arriving home - though understand gas is typically stored at the bow

2) We have a dog who can be muddy and wouldn't want him to come directly into the lounge, the stern and kitchen offer a "Porch" to keep him whilst he is dried off.

3) Only like to "Step-on" from the stern end.

4) I need a larger bathroom to get ready in for work - I find the smaller wet room style too cramped for me.

5) I don't like stepping from the stern into a cramped cabin area - though it could work well as in wet weather

6) I am not keen on mid ship bed areas as my husband takes up a lot of space! - But understand it could be cold having the bedroom as the bow end.

 

I would of course be happy to listen to anyone with experience of having Dogs as to have they manage them in a small space. Or anyone who has experience of why this layout may not work!

 

All the best

 

Kirstie

 

1) Won't work with a "modern" trad (or for that matter, a trad with a proper engine room) - look at the access past the engine, its not great. Reverse layout (well, what I call a reverse layout, having a kitchen at the stern) works well with semi trad stern and cruiser stern though.

 

2) Semi trad is good here. If you're talking about on the move, then it doesn't apply but moored up, a pram cover could be used to offer a staging area for dog drying etc. I do think you'll just need to accept the dog will go anywhere in the boat, and won't care about cleaniness, so you need to think more in terms of practical floor coverings eg easy-clean carpets and lino/tiles etc.

 

3) Fair enough.....unfortunately 95% of boaters like the main boat entrance at either end equally, or at the bow. This is the main driver for locating the lounge at the front normally.

 

4) Wet room - I'm not sure why you've used this term. A wet room would be bigger than a "normal" bathroom - wet room means the shower isn't in a cubicle, so you gain the space you'd have lost in having a shower cubicle; and the shower, when in use, is much larger (ie much better to use) too. Once again, its down to floor coverings, proper fittings, wall covering, installation, sealing etc but its quite possible to achieve.

 

5) Don't get this - the cabin area need not be cramped, it will be the size it is. Its down to the fittings and furniture in it. Normally a kitchen (which is what you're proposing) would be more "cramped" than a lounge because of the units, sink, cooker etc. A bedroom area can be made easily walk-through while not compromising bed width by being a cross bed, or a fold out section. Cross doubles are good but have their own issues (for taller people).

 

6) Once again, bed size doesn't have to directly relate with walk-thru width - fold out sections are quite common these days and no reason not to have a cross double in a mid area of a boat

 

 

Having hired both reverse layout and "normal" layout, there's not much in it but I'd say a normal layout is slightly more space efficient. The convenience of having the kitchen next to the stern, while moving, is the flip side of it.

 

I don't see any issues fitting what you want in a 58ft boat. I've seen a 57 footer with semi trad stern --> kitchen --> dinette --> bedroom --> bathroom --> front lounge (ie an extra room than usual) done successfully.

[KirstieH]

With a 'trad' stern you will need to bend and twist past the engine which will be just in side of the back doors.

 

Perhaps you should look at having a cruiser stern with a 'pram cover'

 

Works well with wet dogs and you can step immediately off the back deck into the galley if you want a rear galley.

Ahh I see. ...I will have to check this out.

 

Thank you

you have basically described our boat! except hat we have a semi trad stern and being only 48 foot minus the study area and cross bed.

 

We opted for separate length way beds that can be pulled together if required. Works really well.

Oh perfect. Do you have any pics?

 

 

1) Won't work with a "modern" trad (or for that matter, a trad with a proper engine room) - look at the access past the engine, its not great. Reverse layout (well, what I call a reverse layout, having a kitchen at the stern) works well with semi trad stern and cruiser stern though.

 

2) Semi trad is good here. If you're talking about on the move, then it doesn't apply but moored up, a pram cover could be used to offer a staging area for dog drying etc. I do think you'll just need to accept the dog will go anywhere in the boat, and won't care about cleaniness, so you need to think more in terms of practical floor coverings eg easy-clean carpets and lino/tiles etc.

 

3) Fair enough.....unfortunately 95% of boaters like the main boat entrance at either end equally, or at the bow. This is the main driver for locating the lounge at the front normally.

 

4) Wet room - I'm not sure why you've used this term. A wet room would be bigger than a "normal" bathroom - wet room means the shower isn't in a cubicle, so you gain the space you'd have lost in having a shower cubicle; and the shower, when in use, is much larger (ie much better to use) too. Once again, its down to floor coverings, proper fittings, wall covering, installation, sealing etc but its quite possible to achieve.

 

5) Don't get this - the cabin area need not be cramped, it will be the size it is. Its down to the fittings and furniture in it. Normally a kitchen (which is what you're proposing) would be more "cramped" than a lounge because of the units, sink, cooker etc. A bedroom area can be made easily walk-through while not compromising bed width by being a cross bed, or a fold out section. Cross doubles are good but have their own issues (for taller people).

 

6) Once again, bed size doesn't have to directly relate with walk-thru width - fold out sections are quite common these days and no reason not to have a cross double in a mid area of a boat

 

 

Having hired both reverse layout and "normal" layout, there's not much in it but I'd say a normal layout is slightly more space efficient. The convenience of having the kitchen next to the stern, while moving, is the flip side of it.

 

I don't see any issues fitting what you want in a 58ft boat. I've seen a 57 footer with semi trad stern --> kitchen --> dinette --> bedroom --> bathroom --> front lounge (ie an extra room than usual) done successfully.

Thanks so much for this.. Lots of food for thought. I really appreciate your time.

 

Yes I didn't mean wet room, I meant the ones with the corridor down the side. The one we stayed on had this as a "Wet room" but they usually have a shower, sink and loo in there.

 

True about the kitchen being more cramped actually...Lots to think about!

 

Edited October 31, 2015 by KirstieH

[Alan de Enfield]

You mention 'husband' takes up a lot of room - then probably a cross bed would not work.

I am 6 foot, on the last NB we had a cross bed and I could not lie straight, fortunately I tend to sleep 'curled' up so its not a problem - if your husband is a 'straight' sleeper then a lengthways bed would better.

[KirstieH]

Ahh I have confused the issue - I do mean a Semi Trad., I am an idiot. Forgive me, I will learn!

You mention 'husband' takes up a lot of room - then probably a cross bed would not work.

I am 6 foot, on the last NB we had a cross bed and I could not lie straight, fortunately I tend to sleep 'curled' up so its not a problem - if your husband is a 'straight' sleeper then a lengthways bed would better.

Agh I see. Yes you are right. I need to look into bets much more. It is the width for me. I don't want to be stuck up against a wall (

[KirstieH]

Here is a quick plan of the boat and ideas for interior layout.....Obviously now with a Semi Trad stern (Not Trad)

Edited October 31, 2015 by KirstieH

[Alan de Enfield]

That looks very nice and practical, and, as you say fits into 58 feet.

 

As part of my job in Marketing I was responsible for designing our Exhibition Stands - whilst on paper a table and chairs would 'fit' into a certain place the reality was that when someone sat on the chairs it immediately took up twice the space.

 

Do try to simulate the space, try passing each other in a 2 feet wide corridor - I do not think that the space between your bedhead and front door is practical, there is only 1 foot between the bed and the corner cupboard.

Edited October 31, 2015 by Alan de Enfield

[Paul C]

Having looked in detail at the plans, all okay except for a detail at the front: you probably don't want the bedhead to be "floating" with nothing next to it, you could put a unit of some kind there, then have the front door offset to the side. The plans always put 2x little corner cabinets at the front because they're expecting a lounge and its a sensible place for a little corner cabinet.

[Bod]

Hello

 

Thanks for your reply. I have been researching the pros and cons for over a year and appreciate what you are saying. Living and working full time in Sussex doesn't offer a lot of time to experience long term living on one (

 

We have stayed on a few and know the following:

 

1) We like to be able to grab things from the kitchen whilst on the move / dump shopping in the kitchen when arriving home - though understand gas is typically stored at the bow

2) We have a dog who can be muddy and wouldn't want him to come directly into the lounge, the stern and kitchen offer a "Porch" to keep him whilst he is dried off.

3) Only like to "Step-on" from the stern end.

4) I need a larger bathroom to get ready in for work - I find the smaller wet room style too cramped for me.

5) I don't like stepping from the stern into a cramped cabin area - though it could work well as in wet weather

6) I am not keen on mid ship bed areas as my husband takes up a lot of space! - But understand it could be cold having the bedroom as the bow end.

 

I would of course be happy to listen to anyone with experience of having Dogs as to have they manage them in a small space. Or anyone who has experience of why this layout may not work!

 

All the best

 

Kirstie

4). I assume you intend to keep working, whilst living on the boat.

Do you have a suitable mooring in mind, or do you intend to keep on the move?

Both will have an influence on the practicalities' of any design.

 

Bod

[The Boater]

Having both fitted out sail away and changed an existing fit out I quickly came to the realisation that the only perfect layout meant the boat would have to be larger than the canal locks would allow ! Fitting out from scratch mounting the bulkheads between cabin spaces in a way that would allow the layout to be changed later worked well, because with any boat the experience of using for a while exposes the fact that your initial design may not have been perfect.

Ian.

[KirstieH]

That looks very nice and practical, and, as you say fits into 58 feet.

 

As part of my job in Marketing I was responsible for designing our Exhibition Stands - whilst on paper a table and chairs would 'fit' into a certain place the reality was that when someone sat on the chairs it immediately took up twice the space.

 

Do try to simulate the space, try passing each other in a 2 feet wide corridor - I do not think that the space between your bedhead and front door is practical, there is only 1 foot between the bed and the corner cupboard.

 

Will do. I know what you mean, just because it fits, doesn't mean its livable. I will conduct a boat "Mock up"

Having both fitted out sail away and changed an existing fit out I quickly came to the realisation that the only perfect layout meant the boat would have to be larger than the canal locks would allow ! Fitting out from scratch mounting the bulkheads between cabin spaces in a way that would allow the layout to be changed later worked well, because with any boat the experience of using for a while exposes the fact that your initial design may not have been perfect.

Ian.

 

Yes I have heard this said. Also one person's "Perfect" is another's nightmare! We were thinking about flexible bulkheads actually. Good tip. Thanks

Having looked in detail at the plans, all okay except for a detail at the front: you probably don't want the bedhead to be "floating" with nothing next to it, you could put a unit of some kind there, then have the front door offset to the side. The plans always put 2x little corner cabinets at the front because they're expecting a lounge and its a sensible place for a little corner cabinet.

Good point. I will think about this for the 3D model version.Thanks

4). I assume you intend to keep working, whilst living on the boat.

Do you have a suitable mooring in mind, or do you intend to keep on the move?

Both will have an influence on the practicalities' of any design.

 

Bod

 

Yes we have to work. At 40 I have a long way off to any kind of retirement!! My husband will work from the boat and I will need to look for a teaching position. We were hoping for a Marina as a base but they can be tricky to find with internet provided (or at all!)

Having looked in detail at the plans, all okay except for a detail at the front: you probably don't want the bedhead to be "floating" with nothing next to it, you could put a unit of some kind there, then have the front door offset to the side. The plans always put 2x little corner cabinets at the front because they're expecting a lounge and its a sensible place for a little corner cabinet.

I think I would have the back of the wardrobe as the bed head (So switch bed round and also the wardrobe in the image and butt them together, as I would use the study area for dressing etc and would create an open plan feel with partition...

You guys are brilliant. Thanks so much for all your help and advice. It is hard to do this alone

[Sea Dog]

Your description isn't too far off a pretty standard "reverse layout" with the exception of the study area. The trad stern isn't a non starter either, although I note you meant semi trad. You don't need any strange manoeuvres to get from my trad steerers step, through the engine space into my bedroom, so if your Galley was there, there'd be no issue either. I'd say you should keep looking at reverse layout trad or semi trad boats, but have the study on your list of possible compromises.

 

Good luck in your quest

[KirstieH]

Your description isn't too far off a pretty standard "reverse layout" with the exception of the study area. The trad stern isn't a non starter either, although I note you meant semi trad. You don't need any strange manoeuvres to get from my trad steerers step, through the engine space into my bedroom, so if your Galley was there, there'd be no issue either. I'd say you should keep looking at reverse layout trad or semi trad boats, but have the study on your list of possible compromises.

 

Good luck in your quest

Thanks Seadog. Stay Salty!

[Texasboater]

Search youtube for a boat named Celtic Pride, It was sold by Rugby Boats and has many of your requirements. I particularly liked the bathroom layout

[KirstieH]

Search youtube for a boat named Celtic Pride, It was sold by Rugby Boats and has many of your requirements. I particularly liked the bathroom layout

Wowser that is gorgeous...but with a price tag to match. You are right it has much of the things I love. I also love the Tug style but the British weather does not support outdoor living LOL

[cuthound]

Don't forget that if you refit an existing boat, bulkhead positions will be dictated by existing window apertures, which are not easily (or invisibly) changed.

 

Our last shareboat was a 58 foot reverse layout sent trad. Galley; dinette; bathroom; bedroom; 2nd toilet and saloon from rear.

 

A good alternative to a semi trad is a trademark with an enlarged hatch.

[KirstieH]

Don't forget that if you refit an existing boat, bulkhead positions will be dictated by existing window apertures, which are not easily (or invisibly) changed.

 

Our last shareboat was a 58 foot reverse layout sent trad. Galley; dinette; bathroom; bedroom; 2nd toilet and saloon from rear.

 

A good alternative to a semi trad is a trademark with an enlarged hatch.

True. If they are large windows this could be even more problematic as you have less to play with. I will look into the trademark...I have never heard of it...

 

Thank you

[Paul C]

Autocorrect for traditional?

[haggis]

Our trad stern has "straight" access from the stern into the cabin without any need to twist round a corner. This would make it easier I think to design a galley as you could have "things" on both side of the entrance. You don't (I think) mention an eating area. Will your galley be big enough?

Good luck with your design.

 

haggis