Fuel additive for cleaning a Ruston.

[IanR]

Hi folks, before I take the heads off our engine for an overhaul, its been recommended that we can add a 'product' to the fuel which will help to decoke things a bit til we get to the strip down. Has anyone used such stuff and can you recommend one in particular?

 

Thanks in advance, Ian.

 

[by'eck]

Take your boat on a river, wind up the revs and watch the sparks fly - this will probably be more beneficial to the engine whilst also reducing smoking.

 

I usually find the roof covered in soot after such.

[IanR]

We had a good couple of bursts on the Trent from the Erewash to the T+M which worked great, should have done it at night as the 'fireworks' show would have been spectacular! We are a few days away from a river so not an option at the moment. Cheers, Ian.

[Tony Brooks]

I do not recall seeing any product that claimed to do that although a Redex "tune up" might, but then unless very careful you run the risk of creating a hydraulic lock and bent con-rods on a diesel.

 

Most additives seem to claim to clean injectors and I suspect you may have injector problems.

 

I expect the Rushton is a direct injected diesel so is always likely to smoke a bit on idle and light loads so don't go spending money on trying to solve a problem inherent in the engine design. To be honest unless the inlet or exhaust ports/valve backs are full of carbon I do not see how a de-coke will cure smoking. It is more likely to make it worse if you damage the carbon "seal" formed around the piston crowns. Personally I would get the injectors serviced first.

 

If you look for a fuel additive that contains cerium it will go some way to cleaning the injectors and MIGHT help reduce the smoke by helping combustion. Wynns Diesel Power 3 is one brand. However to treat a whole narrowboat tank would probably take two or three bottles at about £10 a bottle so that gets you well on the way to paying for an injector overhaul.

[IanR]

Cheers for the replies folks, much appreciated. The issue isn't so much smoking, though it does because they do, its lumpy running at a certain throttle setting. The issue may be cured in the set up of the pumps, valves etc, but since the boat and its engine is new to us it seemed a sensible approach to do a full top end service since we know its prone to coking up.

 

Thanks again, Ian.

[BEngo]

You are at Alvecote I think?

 

If so welly it down to Pooley Hall colliery, turn round and come back again. Repeat as required! You should be able to get bracket open down that stretch without excessive wash ( moorers permitting) - it's good and deep.

 

N

[RLWP]

I'd save your money. Get the injectors serviced when you do a decoke

 

Richard

[casper ghost]

My Ruston smokes, and has been getting more smokey. The injectors and pumps on mine were done a few years ago. But mine starts and runs fine, except for the smoke, but that is needed for nice smoke rings . I think mine will need stripping down as exhaust comes out of the oil filler if I remove the cap, at least I guess it's exhaust.

Casp'

[Tony Dunkley]

Cheers for the replies folks, much appreciated. The issue isn't so much smoking, though it does because they do, its lumpy running at a certain throttle setting. The issue may be cured in the set up of the pumps, valves etc, but since the boat and its engine is new to us it seemed a sensible approach to do a full top end service since we know its prone to coking up.

 

Thanks again, Ian.

 

You haven't said what model of Ruston this is, but if it's very old water cooled job with multiple single element injection pumps, rather than one of the later air cooled engines, then lumpy running either off load or on light load is a common feature of these, most noticeable with the 3 cylinder engines, and is a product of long service with a very high total of running hours.

No amount of top overhauls or serviced injectors will ever eliminate this tendency completely, without also attending to the cumulative effect of small amounts of wear in each of the governor, linkage, and pumps (racks and control sleeve teeth, and not the elements and delivery valves).

Edited December 11, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[IanR]

You are at Alvecote I think?

 

If so welly it down to Pooley Hall colliery, turn round and come back again. Repeat as required! You should be able to get bracket open down that stretch without excessive wash ( moorers permitting) - it's good and deep.

 

N

 

Thats where it was N, it's now in Stone on the T + M.

 

Tony, the engine is a 1946 4VSH. The main issue we have with it is lumpy running through a narrow range in the throttle. High revs (or should that be less low!!) is smooth, and tickover is pretty good, but a small bit in the middle and it shakes a bit. Number 2 cylinder we think may be the problem as the exhaust manifold feels cooler when its been running lumpy. I reckon we might never get rid of some of the vibration as the engine is rigid mounted to the bearers with no hardwood spacers presumably dampen some of the lumps. I've been reading up about the setting up and servicing, its been suggested that number two pump might need a tweek. And therefore numbers 3 and 4 need an opposite adjustment to keep them the same. Does anyone else run a VSH of some kind, whats in Casper Casper ? There are a couple of Ruston shunting locos with the 4VSH in use still, one in Ireland and another I think in Yorkshire, but does anyone know of any more in boats?

 

Thanks again folks. Ian.

[Geoff Taylor]

I'd save your money. Get the injectors serviced when you do a decoke

 

Richard

 

I agree with Richard, injectors sorted, cleaner burn and longer interval before needing another decoke.

[Tony Dunkley]

 

Tony, the engine is a 1946 4VSH. The main issue we have with it is lumpy running through a narrow range in the throttle. High revs (or should that be less low!!) is smooth, and tickover is pretty good, but a small bit in the middle and it shakes a bit. Number 2 cylinder we think may be the problem as the exhaust manifold feels cooler when its been running lumpy. I reckon we might never get rid of some of the vibration as the engine is rigid mounted to the bearers with no hardwood spacers presumably dampen some of the lumps. I've been reading up about the setting up and servicing, its been suggested that number two pump might need a tweek. And therefore numbers 3 and 4 need an opposite adjustment to keep them the same.

 

 

If the engine is definitely running noticeably colder at number 2 cyl. exhaust port that is a good indication of a fault on that cylinder. The fault could be down to any number of causes, such as compression loss due to badly seating valves, or past broken, stuck or worn piston rings, and not necessarily just injector or pump on that cylinder.

Fiddling about with the pump set up and balance is not the way to tackle this, except for checking that linkages between the pumps are correctly set for all 4 pumps to deliver the same quantity of fuel to each cylinder. When you've done that check and set all valve clearances.

If the fault persists you can track it down by swapping No.2 injector with one of it's neighbours and seeing if the fault follows that injector to the other cylinder. If it does, then you found it, it's the injector. If not do the same with No. 2 injector pump, check the timing for both the disturbed pumps and re-set if needed. Again, if the fault follows the pump, then that's the culprit. If not then it's time for a compression test.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Tony Dunkley

[casper ghost]

 

Thats where it was N, it's now in Stone on the T + M.

 

Tony, the engine is a 1946 4VSH. , whats in Casper Casper ? There are a couple of Ruston shunting locos with the 4VSH in use still, one in Ireland and another I think in Yorkshire, but does anyone know of any more in boats?

 

 

I would start by suggesting that a 4vsh is massive.... far too big for a normal narrowboat on canals. I have a 2VTH, which is a lower powered version of the VSH, but shares some parts and looks the same.

There are quite a few Rustons in narrowboats..

Casp'

[X Alan W]

My Ruston smokes, and has been getting more smokey. The injectors and pumps on mine were done a few years ago. But mine starts and runs fine, except for the smoke, but that is needed for nice smoke rings . I think mine will need stripping down as exhaust comes out of the oil filler if I remove the cap, at least I guess it's exhaust.

Casp'

Would guess it's crank case compression ( blow by of compression past the pistons/rings/bores due to wear) possibly ring problems but would guess the bores are worn also, worst sceniro rebore,over size pistons & probably crank regrind & replacement over size main & big end bearings Only a full strip down will reveal the actual problems,If it has one it might be worth checking first if the crank case breather filter is blocked.

[IanR]

I would start by suggesting that a 4vsh is massive.... far too big for a normal narrowboat on canals. I have a 2VTH, which is a lower powered version of the VSH, but shares some parts and looks the same.

There are quite a few Rustons in narrowboats..

Casp'

 

I'm not denying that its a big engine, but 'far too big' is a bit dramatic! It makes it great for stopping and manouvering, plus towing a butty workshop which is the long term plan. To me it makes a lovely noise since it is on tickover most of the time, admittedly this causes premature coking up though.

 

Ian.

[by'eck]

 

I'm not denying that its a big engine, but 'far too big' is a bit dramatic! It makes it great for stopping and manouvering, plus towing a butty workshop which is the long term plan. To me it makes a lovely noise since it is on tickover most of the time, admittedly this causes premature coking up though.

 

Ian.

 

If it works for you fine, there are certainly bigger engines in narrowboats, 4LW's & L2's, even a 5L2 in a tug. I would seriously consider hardwood engine bearers though despite the difficulties of retro-fitting. I'm sure the marine manuals for similar to yours would have suggested such.

[IanR]

 

If it works for you fine, there are certainly bigger engines in narrowboats, 4LW's & L2's, even a 5L2 in a tug. I would seriously consider hardwood engine bearers though despite the difficulties of retro-fitting. I'm sure the marine manuals for similar to yours would have suggested such.

 

I'm hoping there is a chance that the universal joints on the prop shaft would allow the engine to be lifted by the thickness of the hardwood packers, how thick would be recommended? I doubt it'd be possible to retrofit lower bearers without rebuilding the boat!

 

Ian.

[by'eck]

 

I'm hoping there is a chance that the universal joints on the prop shaft would allow the engine to be lifted by the thickness of the hardwood packers, how thick would be recommended? I doubt it'd be possible to retrofit lower bearers without rebuilding the boat!

 

Ian.

 

My Lister JP2 sits on about 1.5" of Iroko.

[casper ghost]

My Ruston sits on 3"x2" oak bearers.

Casp'

[IanR]

I have some nice bits of oak, I'll have to see if the engine is liftuppable, it'll surely be better. It isn't that bad really, just another thing on the list of things to do. I may be in more of a position to do some work soon, just very, very nearly completed on the house which would bring us closer to the said Ruston!

 

Ian.

[X Alan W]

How about mounting on "TICO" pads if they are still available, Listers in the 60's were recommended to be mounted on them. Just Googled & yes it's still available www. Tiflex.co.uk

[BEngo]

You don't want hardwood - it's too rigid and so not as good at damping as good softwood. Something like clear (no knots) Douglas fir/Oregon pine is much better. Just fit some decent size pads of 3mm mild steel under each foot to stop the timber being crushed. Robbins timber can supply what you need, or possibly Fitchett and Woolacott.

 

Ideally you want to bolt the engine to the timber and the timber, separately, to the bearers, but that might be difficult with a room for only a thin slice of timber. If not the bolts will give significant transferance of 'thump' to the hull.

 

N

[by'eck]

You don't want hardwood - it's too rigid and so not as good at damping as good softwood. Something like clear (no knots) Douglas fir/Oregon pine is much better. Just fit some decent size pads of 3mm mild steel under each foot to stop the timber being crushed. Robbins timber can supply what you need, or possibly Fitchett and Woolacott.

 

Ideally you want to bolt the engine to the timber and the timber, separately, to the bearers, but that might be difficult with a room for only a thin slice of timber. If not the bolts will give significant transferance of 'thump' to the hull.

 

N

 

Think there may be a few who disagree with using softwood with a heavy vintage diesel even with the spreaders you suggest. Suspect you would forever need to be tightening mounting bolts as it compressed. Ditto for using old fibre belting to cushion mounting although I know its been tried - engine would soon be rattling around.

[bizzard]

3mm pads would be no good, long or better still full length of 6mm thick, wide angle iron would be best.

[BEngo]

Think there may be a few who disagree with using softwood with a heavy vintage diesel even with the spreaders you suggest. Suspect you would forever need to be tightening mounting bolts as it compressed. Ditto for using old fibre belting to cushion mounting although I know its been tried - engine would soon be rattling around.

My Kelvin J2 has been sat on 3mm plate spreaders on Oregon pine since 1989. I lined it up when it was in, check the bolts (8) once a season and it ain't moved or squashed the timbers yet.

 

The timber came from Oz so I know it to have been properly seasoned, hence my steer to two good UK timber merchants. I don't suppose a bit of DIY shed yellow pine would have been any use at all.

 

 

TICO might also be worth looking at- its made for supporting heavy vibrating things and comes in various pads and thicknesses.

 

N