Is time up for diesel engines?

[John V]

You've been riding too many Triumphs.

 

What you need is a Norton featherbed!

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

Nearly bought a Norton Come and Go Inastate once, they were a lot of money for a very variable product ( 800 squids brand new IIRC) so I added a hundred to that and bought a second hand Laverda instead

 

( When I wrote that I was thinking of my little Competition Itoms 50cc 2 strokes with mind boggling performance for the 60's they had a frame very like the design of the featherbed)

 

img139 by mudlarker2, on Flickr

[furnessvale]

 

Nearly bought a Norton Come and Go Inastate once, they were a lot of money for a very variable product ( 800 squids brand new IIRC) so I added a hundred to that and bought a second hand Laverda instead

 

( When I wrote that I was thinking of my little Competition Itoms 50cc 2 strokes with mind boggling performance for the 60's they had a frame very like the design of the featherbed)

 

img139 by mudlarker2, on Flickr

When I was young I knew I chap who's dad would only let him have a moped.

 

Knowing it was only 50cc he persuaded his dad to let him buy a full race spec Derbi. Quite a sight and sound warching him warm up then scream away from the caff using his (I think) 14 gears.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[tidal]

When I was young I knew I chap who's dad would only let him have a moped.

 

Knowing it was only 50cc he persuaded his dad to let him buy a full race spec Derbi. Quite a sight and sound warching him warm up then scream away from the caff using his (I think) 14 gears.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

When I was younger, slimmer, braver and less concerned about my life-span, I used to race motorcycles and only gave up when I was offered a ride on a similar two stroke monster which had no gear indicator. Just a tacho with green and red segments.

I never did find out how many gears it had because I was too busy trying a) to stay on and b )prevent the pucker factor from becoming embarrassing.

Suitably chastened I took up "classic" racing

Edited October 12, 2015 by tidal

[John V]

I used to lust after a Derbi Nieto Replica

 

I could never manage to talk myself into spending that much money on something "just for fun"

 

Incidentally a much much breathed on Itom I once owned was about the hairiest bit of kit I have ever tried to ride on the road, it didn't have a throttle.....it might have been shaped like one and twisted like one but it acted more like an on/off switch. A mate referred to it as a total experience motorbike....first you could hear it, then briefly you saw it, then finally you smelled it (Castrol R)

[churchward]

Time might not be up for diesel engines, but is is for 2 strokes. I spent my youth risking my life on various 2 stroke bikes. OK I can get similar speed from a bland modern bike but there's nothing quite like a 2 stroke when it enters its power band. If I want that now, I have to pay the same price for a 35 year old bike as I would if I bought a brand new modern equivalent tomorrow. That's progress, I guess.

How about 2 stroke diesels?

[John V]

How about 2 stroke diesels?

 

very good point

[GreyLady]

I had a Kawasaki KX500 Enduro 2 stroke single cylinder, luckily instill have 2 legs, 2 arms but a slighty dented pride after coming a cropper big time, those bikes should be banned for ever.

[John V]

A "friend" (please note the inverted commas) kindly loaned me a motorcycle for a week when mine was suffering termites in the pistons.

 

It was a Panther 600cc an early swinging arm jobby a model 100 I think.........I still have the scars.......obstropulous beast........couple of times it threw me into the hedge just because I forgot to adjust the timing before kicking it over.

 

 

edit to introduce a highr grayde of miss Pelling

Edited October 12, 2015 by John V

[GreyLady]

A "friend" (please note the inverted commas) kindly loaned me a motorcycle for a week when mine was suffering termites in the pistons.

 

It was a Panther 600cc an early swinging arm jobby a model 100 I think.........I still have the scars.......obstopulous beast........couple of times it threw me into the hedge just because I forgot to adjust the timing before kicking it over.

owe you have circumed to the old kick start too, ouch !

 

I did that I my garage "once" , it launched me into the asbestos roof and gave me an egg on my head.

[keif's mate]

2 stroke diesels with exception of Large Low speed marine engines have largely had their day. I have fond memories of 12V-71 and 8V-92 Detroit diesels singing away on the Development shop dyno's at GM Wellingborough. We put an 8V-71 into a Ford D series Artic unit. It went well and sounded even better!!!!!!

 

I was a bit too young at the time to have taken any interest in the Commer TS3 2 stroke diesel though.

 

2 Stroke seems to be the norm though for the larger ship engines. Wartsila power the large Maersk line E class container ships. The 14 cylinder RT-Flex96C produces 107,390 HP but weighs in at a portly 2300 tons!

[gazza]

I had a Kawasaki KX500 Enduro 2 stroke single cylinder, luckily instill have 2 legs, 2 arms but a slighty dented pride after coming a cropper big time, those bikes should be banned for ever.

Never!!!

 

They are best housed in a motocross outfit.....

 

My mate had a CR500, it was a nice torquey bit of kit, docile and easy to ride with a grin inducing turn of speed.

 

The most hardcore motocross bike I had was a '92 RM250, much harder to ride quickly than any of the big strokers, power delivery on the RM was savage, I did the wild and woolly on it. DNF'D with a faulty kick start, poxy thing!

 

All the modern stuff is way quicker, largely on account of vastly improved suspension and brakes. I can ride the wheels off my KTM 200 and be quicker absolutely everywhere compared to the hairy arsed RM!

 

We have a KTM 500 hybrid in our BSU outfit, 630cc MVP cylinder on it, awesome thing, if somewhat fragile.

[churchward]

2 stroke diesels with exception of Large Low speed marine engines have largely had their day. I have fond memories of 12V-71 and 8V-92 Detroit diesels singing away on the Development shop dyno's at GM Wellingborough. We put an 8V-71 into a Ford D series Artic unit. It went well and sounded even better!!!!!!

 

I was a bit too young at the time to have taken any interest in the Commer TS3 2 stroke diesel though.

 

2 Stroke seems to be the norm though for the larger ship engines. Wartsila power the large Maersk line E class container ships. The 14 cylinder RT-Flex96C produces 107,390 HP but weighs in at a portly 2300 tons!

I can't really see how something has had its day when it is in so much use even if confined to powering large ships. There are still other uses though and many railway locomotive engines have been 2 stroke diesel particularly in diesel/electric traction where a narrow power band is quite useful to drive a generator.

 

Still Renault at least seem to think there is some potential in a small 2 stroke design.

 

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a24496/renaults-unveils-tiny-2-stroke-2-cylinder-turbo-diesel/

[nb Innisfree]

For me the ultimate diesel is the Deltic, fabulous engines, multiple cylinders, two stroke, turbine like smoothness and power delivery, imagine a small one in a car.

 

Having said that I do think piston engined cars have a limited life left, beginning of the end sort of thing starting with diesel. Hybrid as a stop gap, say 10 years from now will see a small number of diesel cars on the road and petrol maybe following 5-10 years later. 20 years from now and electric in the majority when infrastructure is big enough to cope?

[gazza]

I can't really see how something has had its day when it is in so much use even if confined to powering large ships. There are still other uses though and many railway locomotive engines have been 2 stroke diesel particularly in diesel/electric traction where a narrow power band is quite useful to drive a generator.

 

Still Renault at least seem to think there is some potential in a small 2 stroke design.

 

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a24496/renaults-unveils-tiny-2-stroke-2-cylinder-turbo-diesel/

Is your screen broken?

 

Keifs mate stated two stroke diesels have had their day in applications like road haulage, I'm willing to bet he may know what he's on about having, as he stated worked at GM'S.....

 

He also clearly points out that they are the norm in large ships.

 

I'm trying hard to see what you missed, but failing miserably TBH.

[churchward]

Is your screen broken?

 

Keifs mate stated two stroke diesels have had their day in applications like road haulage, I'm willing to bet he may know what he's on about having, as he stated worked at GM'S.....

 

He also clearly points out that they are the norm in large ships.

 

I'm trying hard to see what you missed, but failing miserably TBH.

no it isn't. Why are you taking offence on behalf of someone else?

 

I had and have no wish to cause offence I made a comment on other uses of 2 stroke diesels. I also just mean I don't think anything has had its day when it is still in such major use. I rather thought he was speaking more generally. Given that yer mans first sentence was

 

"2 stroke diesels with exception of Large Low speed marine engines have largely had their day"

 

No clarification of road haulage there.

 

Did you look at the link I supplied? Renault have been designing a new 2 stroke small diesel. I have no idea if this can be scaled up to a more powerful haulage engine but it is interesting in a road vehicle context.

For me the ultimate diesel is the Deltic, fabulous engines, multiple cylinders, two stroke, turbine like smoothness and power delivery, imagine a small one in a car.

 

Having said that I do think piston engined cars have a limited life left, beginning of the end sort of thing starting with diesel. Hybrid as a stop gap, say 10 years from now will see a small number of diesel cars on the road and petrol maybe following 5-10 years later. 20 years from now and electric in the majority when infrastructure is big enough to cope?

I am not so sure about all electric with batteries it may yet prove to be a dead end. Some kind of hybrid is likely to be the answer. Something to generate the electricity and electric motors to drive the vehicle. The generator may be a very small fossil fuel engine to begin with but replaced by something else possibly hydrogen.

[Ricco1]

Yamaha RS100 first for me, following by a Suzuki X7. The latter was a lot of fun to ride and being small and light, terrifyingly quick for a 250. I had a go on a Kawasaki KH750 once. That was a totally insane experience. A real death trap in the wrong hands but you now what, I want one.

[Guest]

Yamaha RS100 first for me, following by a Suzuki X7. The latter was a lot of fun to ride and being small and light, terrifyingly quick for a 250. I had a go on a Kawasaki KH750 once. That was a totally insane experience. A real death trap in the wrong hands but you now what, I want one.

I remember when the X7 came out and a guy used to enter one in the production race at the local track. Very quick for a 250, though apparently had an appetite for big ends!

[gazza]

no it isn't. Why are you taking offence on behalf of someone else?

 

I had and have no wish to cause offence I made a comment on other uses of 2 stroke diesels. I also just mean I don't think anything has had its day when it is still in such major use. I rather thought he was speaking more generally. Given that yer mans first sentence was

 

"2 stroke diesels with exception of Large Low speed marine engines have largely had their day"

 

No clarification of road haulage there.

 

You missed the bit about the Ford D series then....

 

Did you look at the link I supplied? Renault have been designing a new 2 stroke small diesel. I have no idea if this can be scaled up to a more powerful haulage engine but it is interesting in a road vehicle context

Cricky you're a bit touchy!

 

I've not taken offence on behalf of anyone! I was surprised that your first line seemed to want to start an argument, much like the beginning of the post I've just quoted

 

I will look at that link shortly, universally challenged is on

[Ricco1]

I remember when the X7 came out and a guy used to enter one in the production race at the local track. Very quick for a 250, though apparently had an appetite for big ends!

 

Big appetite for many things. I got less than 40 mpg out of mine. Sold it with 10,000 on the clock, shortly before the engine needed rebuilding.

[Guest]

 

Big appetite for many things. I got less than 40 mpg out of mine. Sold it with 10,000 on the clock, shortly before the engine needed rebuilding.

Not surprising really given the power the engine could produce. A guy called Terry Shepherd used to race prep them down the road from me, and got even more out of them. I recall my mate having a Suzuki Super Six which was rapid in its day, and another one had a Suzuki Hustler.

[Ricco1]

Not surprising really given the power the engine could produce. A guy called Terry Shepherd used to race prep them down the road from me, and got even more out of them. I recall my mate having a Suzuki Super Six which was rapid in its day, and another one had a Suzuki Hustler.

 

Today's bikes, or at least some of them, are just as quick. A lot more refined, smoother, better handling as well. Brakes are better than they used to be. But the dodgy handling, smoke and vibration of the old 2 stroke machines was part of their appeal.

 

From memory I paid 600 odd quid for my X7, brand new. I saw an unused one offered on Ebay a couple of months ago for £9,000. Whether It went for that I don't know but it shows their appeal, and it's not just nostalgia.

[churchward]

Cricky you're a bit touchy!

 

I've not taken offence on behalf of anyone! I was surprised that your first line seemed to want to start an argument, much like the beginning of the post I've just quoted

 

I will look at that link shortly, universally challenged is on

I think you started your post with

 

"Is your screen broken?"

 

and ended with

 

"I'm trying hard to see what you missed, but failing miserably TBH."

 

Pot and kettle I think.

 

Still, I am trying not to being sensitive are you? I was and was still trying to debate a point with some facts to back up that point. What did your post in reply to my post contribute?

 

All internal combustion engines diesel or petrol are likely to be doomed in the longer run but I see no end for either in the short term and quite a long transition through a few false starts in the medium term.

 

Going back to the large ships engines point. These along with the tonnage carried make them very efficient cost wise. It the most modern of ships it is possible to transport cargo like washing machines from China (ie fuel per item burnt) for example than it is for it to be delivered from the warehouse in the UK to your house.

 

Why not reset and start from there.

Edited October 12, 2015 by churchward

[Guest]

 

Today's bikes, or at least some of them, are just as quick. A lot more refined, smoother, better handling as well. Brakes are better than they used to be. But the dodgy handling, smoke and vibration of the old 2 stroke machines was part of their appeal.

 

From memory I paid 600 odd quid for my X7, brand new. I saw an unused one offered on Ebay a couple of months ago for £9,000. Whether It went for that I don't know but it shows their appeal, and it's not just nostalgia.

That is serious money, but then lots of older bikes are bringing big money. Even bikes that I would have bought as a go to work hack such as a CZ are bringing silly money. Doesn't seem that long since I gave two CZ's away because nobody wanted them.

[keif's mate]

Progress Rail Services still supply Electro Motive Division 2 stroke diesels for marine, rail and power generation applications.

 

MTU as the successors to Detroit Diesel provide support for the 53, 71, 92 and 149 series but no longer supply new engines.

 

Detroit Diesel/and or it’s successors made the move away from 2 stroke automotive diesels to 4 strokes in the 1980’s.

 

Where can I buy a new 2 stroke diesel for an automotive or marine application?

 

Extracts from the link.

 

The humble two-stroke might be the engine of the future. Renault is a major small-diesel manufacturer, it might be first out the gate with a small two-stroke diesel for passenger cars.

 

Interesting to hear work is going on to resurrect the 2 stroke diesel.

 

By design, a two-stroke diesel is power-dense, with a power stroke every revolution, and inherently cleaner than a gasoline two-stroke.

 

“Power dense” seems to go out of the window when we look at the big Wartsila 14RT-Flex 96C 46.69 HP per ton!!!!!!! Though I have no doubt that a comparable 4 stroke would be a lot heavier.

 

Several companies are trying to meet the challenges of emissions and economy and produce a two-stroke engine suitable for a light automobile, but so far none have come to market.

 

In the light of the VW farce, emissions might yet be a factor in delaying or killing of the roll out of a small automotive 2 stroke diesel.

 

Renault is not happy with the performance yet. Further development is required before it's ready for prime time.

 

It might be the future, but it is not here yet. Be nice if there was life to be found in the old 2 stroke dog!

[churchward]

Progress Rail Services still supply Electro Motive Division 2 stroke diesels for marine, rail and power generation applications.

 

MTU as the successors to Detroit Diesel provide support for the 53, 71, 92 and 149 series but no longer supply new engines.

 

Detroit Diesel/and or it’s successors made the move away from 2 stroke automotive diesels to 4 strokes in the 1980’s.

 

Where can I buy a new 2 stroke diesel for an automotive or marine application?

 

Extracts from the link.

 

The humble two-stroke might be the engine of the future. Renault is a major small-diesel manufacturer, it might be first out the gate with a small two-stroke diesel for passenger cars.

 

Interesting to hear work is going on to resurrect the 2 stroke diesel.

 

By design, a two-stroke diesel is power-dense, with a power stroke every revolution, and inherently cleaner than a gasoline two-stroke.

 

“Power dense” seems to go out of the window when we look at the big Wartsila 14RT-Flex 96C 46.69 HP per ton!!!!!!! Though I have no doubt that a comparable 4 stroke would be a lot heavier.

 

Several companies are trying to meet the challenges of emissions and economy and produce a two-stroke engine suitable for a light automobile, but so far none have come to market.

 

In the light of the VW farce, emissions might yet be a factor in delaying or killing of the roll out of a small automotive 2 stroke diesel.

 

Renault is not happy with the performance yet. Further development is required before it's ready for prime time.

 

It might be the future, but it is not here yet. Be nice if there was life to be found in the old 2 stroke dog!

I agree it may not be the right time for a launch given the VW revelations but I think it is interesting research and I would have thought a small efficient 2 stroke diesel assuming you can manage the emission makes for a great hybrid or better a fully diesel-electric solution. It may be superseded in the long run by some other kind of power generation but as a short term to medium term solution it may have promise.

 

The US EMD rail traction units sound great especially the older non turbo'd ones in the GP7s & GP9s of the 1950s/60s

 

I am a fan of diesel 2 stroke in actual fact I think it makes more sense than 4 stroke diesel ongoing. I see some hope for the format but it depends on the bigger manufacturers being prepared to put in the R&D expense.

Edited October 12, 2015 by churchward