CRT has to say sorry - I think this is really bad

[Alan de Enfield]

Who says anything about benefit fraud?

 

It is yet to be decided whether boats on private marinas will have to pay a CRT licence isn't it? Isn't there a current court case surrounding this issue, as a privately owned marina is off the 'main navigation channel' that might clarify this issue?

 

 

 

Don't confuse Rivers with Canals.

There is a question (or maybe no question) regarding the man navigable channel on Rivers, but, on canals C&RT have the rights of the full width, + the towpath + in some circumstances the offside also.

 

Boats in Private marinas that are subject to a Canal Access Agreement must have a licence as part of the Access Agreement.

 

There are about 20 canal based Marinas where for historical reasons this does not apply.

 

The marina where our NB was kept was 'licence exempt' even tho' it was on the T&M

The Marina where our Cruiser was kept (on the River Trent) was 'licence exempt' as C&RTs responsibilities are 'navigable channel only'

[cotswoldsman]

This is

1. WYHATT trying to pi££ his own moorers off by introducing it, therefore taking a lot more money off them for no extra facilities.

2. WYHATT then trying to land anyone else in the sh£t by saying to local councils, we(Bwml) have done this, don't you think everyone else should do this as well.

 

The guy was an idiot working for BW,he hasn't changed one iota.

That is why Whyatt fits in so well with the senior management structure within CRT very little experience of running a business at senior level.

[Higgs]

 

Don't confuse Rivers with Canals.

There is a question (or maybe no question) regarding the man navigable channel on Rivers, but, on canals C&RT have the rights of the full width, + the towpath + in some circumstances the offside also.

 

Boats in Private marinas that are subject to a Canal Access Agreement must have a licence as part of the Access Agreement.

 

There are about 20 canal based Marinas where for historical reasons this does not apply.

 

The marina where our NB was kept was 'licence exempt' even tho' it was on the T&M

The Marina where our Cruiser was kept (on the River Trent) was 'licence exempt' as C&RTs responsibilities are 'navigable channel only'

 

 

But not in law. Which only applies to the Trust's waterways.

[magnetman]

Network Access Agreement AFAIK. NAA

(Not canal access agreement as stated by Alan de Enfield)

 

[/pedant mode OFF]

Edited September 6, 2015 by magnetman

[Paul C]

 

 

But not in law. Which only applies to the Trust's waterways.

 

Strictly yes in law, but a different law (contract law, effecively). The marina and the moorer are bound by a contract; and the marina with a NAA will have as one of its T&Cs that the boat requires a CRT licence. If a moorer decides not to have a CRT licence then the marina might (doesn't have to...) cancel the contract for this reason. Or they may choose to not renew the contract at its renewal period - but then they aren't bound to renew it anyway. Also they may choose not to form the contract in the first place if the boater doesn't/won't get a CRT licence (they are not bound by law to accept moorers etc).

 

In theory CRT could take action against a marina if it did allow boaters with a CRT licence to moor there (and they check...the NAA has a clause which gives permission for CRT to come round the marina and check the licences...and they do it regularly) but in practice its unlikely that serious action would be taken against the marina. Since its not their issue, the marina probably wouldn't take on "the fight" on behalf of a moorer/boater and instead they would simply require the boater/moorer to have a CRT licence or not have them moor there.

[matty40s]

Perhaps this is why CRT new conditions are trying to force those with home moorings to go back to their marinas if spotted too often out on the cut.

 

" please return to your home mooring when not actively cruising g so your council tax can be calculated accordingly (if applicable). ☺

[Dick Dastardly]

What's NAA pls?

[Higgs]

 

Strictly yes in law, but a different law (contract law, effecively). The marina and the moorer are bound by a contract; and the marina with a NAA will have as one of its T&Cs that the boat requires a CRT licence. If a moorer decides not to have a CRT licence then the marina might (doesn't have to...) cancel the contract for this reason. Or they may choose to not renew the contract at its renewal period - but then they aren't bound to renew it anyway. Also they may choose not to form the contract in the first place if the boater doesn't/won't get a CRT licence (they are not bound by law to accept moorers etc).

 

In theory CRT could take action against a marina if it did allow boaters with a CRT licence to moor there (and they check...the NAA has a clause which gives permission for CRT to come round the marina and check the licences...and they do it regularly) but in practice its unlikely that serious action would be taken against the marina. Since its not their issue, the marina probably wouldn't take on "the fight" on behalf of a moorer/boater and instead they would simply require the boater/moorer to have a CRT licence or not have them moor there.

 

 

The NAA is nothing to do with the moorer. It is a contract between the marina and CRT. The moorer abides by the terms and conditions of the marina. In those terms and conditions they are going to require the boater to buy a licence. This is to fulfil the operational licence and contract the marina has with CRT. It has nothing to do with Trust waterways law.

 

It is obviously no skin off the noses of the marinas to go along with the NAA. The marina is not going to take sides with the moorer.

 

The NAA does not apply outside the marina, on the canal. The law of the Trust's waterways does not apply inside a marina, off the canal.

[Murflynn]

Whilst the way they went about it seems a little sneaky, resulting in an apology, the principle seems fair.

 

In any other situation most peeps would be shouting for a level playing field, and it seems that is all BWML are trying to establish.

 

..................... and, yes, I can imagine some BMWL residents complaining that they have to pay council tax while residents of other marinas are getting away with it.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Murflynn

[Higgs]

What's NAA pls?

 

 

NETWORK ACCESS AGREEMENT FOR MARINAS AND OFF LINE MOORINGS SUMMARY OF MAIN TERMS

• Is granted under the provisions of Section 43 Transport Act 1962.

• The purpose of the NAA is to authorise connection to our waterway network and to charge marina operators for CRT services facilities including the impoundment, supply and re-supply of water to enable navigation between the marina and the waterway and within the marina.

• It deals with other issues such as entry upon and access across CRT land and other statutory rights and powers.

• Lasts for a period of 150 years from a date that anticipates the date of connection. • Has to be completed before you begin any works affecting CRT. (see Application Process).

• Has a start date that will be agreed between the parties and will be the anticipated date of the physical connection to the network.

• If the physical connection to the network is delayed the phasing in of payments will not be deferred. Conversely if the physical connection is achieved earlier than planned the phasing will not be brought forward so there is a financial incentive in completing the connection to the network as soon as possible.

 

• Specifies an agreed gross mooring capacity in metres which can only be changed by mutual agreement.

• Has a standard payment to CRT of 9% of the gross mooring capacity multiplied by the mooring rate (net of VAT) charged at the marina. This will be paid by equal 3 monthly payments in advance. It will be reviewed annually to reflect any increases in the marina mooring rate. Interest is payable on late payments.

• The payment will be phased in as follows. 1st year no payment, 2nd year 50% capacity, 3rd year 100% capacity.

• Is transferable to another party who is the freehold owner or head lessee of the whole marina with CRT consent (such consent not be unreasonably withheld or delayed).

• Requires the operator to construct and keep the marina and connection to the canal in good and watertight repair and to be properly dredged.

• Gives CRT the right to enter the marina to carry out inspections and testing relating to the marina basin and effect of the marina on the waterway.

• Prohibits any taking of water from the marina or waterway.

• Prohibits the discharge of anything into the marina or waterway without CRT consent. If at the design stage the marina or the waterway is seen to offer the best solution to disposing of surface water from the marina’s land and buildings this will be assessed by our engineers and if the waterway can accommodate the flows a separate agreement will be granted but no additional charge will be made.

• Requires the marina operator not to allow any boat to be moored in the marina which does not have a current valid CRT pleasure boat licence, to keep records of the owners of all boats in the marina and to allow CRT to have access to the marina to inspect boats and these records. This is to assist us in minimising licence evasion

k:\nmu\website changes\website info\scheme original docs and pdf for upload\network access agreement for marinas and off line moorings.docx, page 2 of 2, 28/03/2012

which is in everyone’s interest. • Gives CRT step in rights in case of default and to seal off the access if necessary in order to protect the waterway and allow for de watering of the waterway for maintenance purposes. This should also preserve water levels in the marina while the waterway is de-watered.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Higgs

[cotswoldsman]

Whilst the way they went about it seems a little sneaky, resulting in an apology, the principle seems fair.

 

In any other situation most peeps would be shouting for a level playing field, and it seems that is all BWML are trying to establish.

 

..................... and, yes, I can imagine some BMWL residents complaining that they have to pay council; tax while residents of other marinas are getting away with it.

I wonder how many concerns BWML could show via a FOI request

[magnetman]

Can we send Dick Dastardly a link to the Pillings Lock thread for educational purposes

 

Edit to correct user name

Edited September 6, 2015 by magnetman

[cotswoldsman]

Can we send Dick Dastardly a link to the Pillings Lock thread for educational purposes

 

Edit to correct user name

Would not hear from him again for a month

[magnetman]

An abridged version would be handy

[Paul C]

Can we send Dick Dastardly a link to the Pillings Lock thread for educational purposes

 

Edit to correct user name

 

 

Would not hear from him again for a month

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=63317&hl=pillings+lock+marina

Happy reading

[Dick Dastardly]

All for a bit of education. The only marina I have had dealing with had a natural entrance and you didn't need a licence if you were moored in there as it was private water so I believe the NAA wasn't applicable there. I try and avoid marinas as a rule. Thanks for the information.

[Higgs]

An abridged version would be handy

 

Boaters are being stuffed.

[Alan de Enfield]

Network Access Agreement AFAIK. NAA

(Not canal access agreement as stated by Alan de Enfield)

 

[/pedant mode OFF]

 

Correct & I know that, but the OP is river based and has no knowledge of the NAA.

Had I said Network Access Agreement then he may have assumed it related to Rivers as well.

 

I suppose it would have been better to have said "Network Access Agreement as applied to Canals and not to Rivers"

[Higgs]

All for a bit of education. The only marina I have had dealing with had a natural entrance and you didn't need a licence if you were moored in there as it was private water so I believe the NAA wasn't applicable there. I try and avoid marinas as a rule. Thanks for the information.

 

 

And it's a strange thing, inside a marina is "private water".

[matty40s]

An abridged version would be handy

Marina owner and Dad agree fee with BW.

Marina owner pi ££es Dad off and out of business.

Marina owner spends fee on holidays cars and new house.

Marina owner says fee is unfair (several years later).

Marina threatened with entrance closure to recover 3 years fees by BW/CRT.

Marina owner doesn't pay fee by making the marina go bust,,miraculously continues trading under new company with a 3 year old director who happened to be head glasswasher in the old set up.

CRT agree to new set up.

Glass washing director moves on to new challenges shortly afterwards.

[magnetman]

Well put

 

And Alan de Enfield I did think you probably knew but didn't pick up the subtlety of your comment. Sorry if I appeared rude

...has no knowledge of the NAA.

 

We assume

[Alan de Enfield]

"

...has no knowledge of the NAA.

We assume

 

His post "What's NAA pls? " sort of confirms it

[magnetman]

Ok

[Arthur Marshall]

Playing devil's advocate for a moment or two... there's a stack of you moored in a marina where you are residential and you have to pay the marina fees, boat licence and Council Tax because it's all been registered. You realise there's a marina just down the cut where you can get all the same facilities, but you can get away without paying Council Tax. This is quite a lot of money, so you tell your marina manager you are going to leave and go down the road, all fifty of you... Marina manager sees all this money going down the swanee, says "This aint fair" and rings the council saying his moorers are being discriminated against.

That's the way the world works. If you seriously expect the boat owners who are paying an extra grand not to complain, you're daft. Ditto if you don't expect the marina owner to get stuffy about it.

It's got bugger all to do with CRT hating residential boaters. It's all about money.

[magnetman]

 

It's got bugger all to do with CRT hating residential boaters. It's all about money.

Surely not