Hoping for good advice :)

[Benny the Ball]

Hi all.

 

I am in the market for a live aboard narrowboat and would like some initial information about certain things if anyone would be so kind as to help?

I know I can ask any prospective sellers when I go to view any boats but I would prefer some neutral, non bias advice.

 

I have done some research and would like to know if there are any types of engine to avoid and at the same time, any that are recommended?

How often do you need to lift boat for blacking? How much does this cost for say a 45ft boat?

What are the costs for the compulsory things such as licenses for using the waterways, insurance and anything else I need to take into account. I would be looking to have a mooring on the Leeds/Liverpool canal somewhere between Leeds city centre and up to 8 miles west of central Leeds.

What is a recommended thickness for the steel? I see 10mm/6mm/4mm - is this recommended?

I was under the impression years ago that gas oil was used on boats, is this the case?

Is it possible to have wifi and satellite tv on a boat?

 

Sorry for all the questions but if anyone would be kind enough to offer me answers or any advice I would be most grateful.

 

Thank you

[Bettie Boo]

Hi and welcome to the forum

 

If you are a novice, which I'm assuming you are by your OP, I would suggest going to some of your local marina's and having a look at as many different boats as possible, if you haven't already done so. This will help you decide what size your happy with and the layout that feels right for you.

 

Using the search engine on the forum, read some of the past threads about pump out vs cassette, the different stern types and the benefits and draw backs of each, there are also a fair few threads covering the different costs associated with owning/operating a NB, as well as the different types of technology available and of course engine preformance

 

Best of luck with your research

[Tony Brooks]

1. Depends on the type of blacking used. properly prepped and applied modern Epoxy up to maybe 10 years. Ordinary bitumed every 2 to 4 years depending upon what's in the water. Tar based may be a little longer.

 

2. Around £700 to £800 for license (look on CaRT website. MY fully comp insurance for pleasure boat, not livaboard is about £140. Mooring fees- best get answers from someone up there but if you want proper residential, moorings the best of luck and expect to pay £1000s if you find one. 4 yearly BSS inspection = bets part of £200

 

3. A well looked after 6,6,4 or 8,6,4 hull in good condition will be better than a 10,6,4 hull that has been neglected and is corroded. This is where a surveyor comes in if you have little experience. Condition and hull maker is all but after that the thicker the better.

 

4. Since the EU required us to use low sulphur fuel we use red diesel that may or may not contain bio-diesel. We pay red diesel prices for the fuel we declare we use for domestic purposes and then the "road diesel" duty and tax for the proportion we use for propulsion. You declare the split and it is up to you to satisfy HMRC if they come calling. HMRC think 40% domestic and 60% propulsion is about right. Certain EU countries and the EU itself are trying to get us to pay the full road price for all our diesel. Because of low volumes the canal side diesel is usually more expensive than road diesel.

 

5. I use a 3 MIFI or dongle for internet and do not recall any problems in Leeds. A Vodaphone MIFI was useless a short day's cruise downstream. A lot depends on your locations, the local masts and the topography of the area. Yes you can have satellite TV but I get by perfectly well with Freeview and a directional aerial. See my comments above about masts and the topography.

[Benny the Ball]

Hi and welcome to the forum

 

If you are a novice, which I'm assuming you are by your OP, I would suggest going to some of your local marina's and having a look at as many different boats as possible, if you haven't already done so. This will help you decide what size your happy with and the layout that feels right for you.

 

Using the search engine on the forum, read some of the past threads about pump out vs cassette, the different stern types and the benefits and draw backs of each, there are also a fair few threads covering the different costs associated with owning/operating a NB, as well as the different types of technology available and of course engine preformance

 

Best of luck with your research

Thank you Ms Boo I will go to marina(s) on Sunday. Nice to meet a fellow cartoon character

[Benny the Ball]

1. Depends on the type of blacking used. properly prepped and applied modern Epoxy up to maybe 10 years. Ordinary bitumed every 2 to 4 years depending upon what's in the water. Tar based may be a little longer.

 

2. Around £700 to £800 for license (look on CaRT website. MY fully comp insurance for pleasure boat, not livaboard is about £140. Mooring fees- best get answers from someone up there but if you want proper residential, moorings the best of luck and expect to pay £1000s if you find one. 4 yearly BSS inspection = bets part of £200

 

3. A well looked after 6,6,4 or 8,6,4 hull in good condition will be better than a 10,6,4 hull that has been neglected and is corroded. This is where a surveyor comes in if you have little experience. Condition and hull maker is all but after that the thicker the better.

 

4. Since the EU required us to use low sulphur fuel we use red diesel that may or may not contain bio-diesel. We pay red diesel prices for the fuel we declare we use for domestic purposes and then the "road diesel" duty and tax for the proportion we use for propulsion. You declare the split and it is up to you to satisfy HMRC if they come calling. HMRC think 40% domestic and 60% propulsion is about right. Certain EU countries and the EU itself are trying to get us to pay the full road price for all our diesel. Because of low volumes the canal side diesel is usually more expensive than road diesel.

 

5. I use a 3 MIFI or dongle for internet and do not recall any problems in Leeds. A Vodaphone MIFI was useless a short day's cruise downstream. A lot depends on your locations, the local masts and the topography of the area. Yes you can have satellite TV but I get by perfectly well with Freeview and a directional aerial. See my comments above about masts and the topography.

 

Hi Tony thanks for the info. Can I ask what will seem an obvious question? 10, 6, 4 in the same condition as 6, 6, 4 or 8, 6, 4 would be the better option?

 

I spoke with my friend today who uses 4G dongle with EE network and he goes camping miles from anywhere and says his signal is much quicker than his home broadband!! He is very technically minded and often explains things to me in a way he is talking with another tekkie as you can probably guess, I am not technically minded but as long as I know I can have wifi

 

With the Sky freeview, is there a way I can get Sky Sports. I have subscribed to Sky for the last 20 years so never needed the use for freeview

 

Thanks again

[OldGoat]

Folks get confused about TV reception -

Sky is reception via a satellite dish. You can receive satellite transmissions free and this is known as Freesat. To confuse matters you can receive these channels for no charge on a Sky box. Sky calls that 'Freesat from Sky'

There's 'no way' you can get Sky Sports without paying it for it (in some way ? deal), but you can still pay for a subscription if you're on a boat - some on here do just that.

Freeview is TV received via an aerial (the signal comes from transmitters in various places around the country.

The channels available on Freeview are broadly the same as those on Freesat - and that's why you've not seen the need for it!

 

(Sorry to be pedantic but TV reception methods confuse the hell out of some folks)

 

Mr Brooks was saying that there's nothing inherently wrong or bad in having a 6,8 or 10mm baseplate - it's a matter of how well the boat was made and how well they have been maintained afterwards (some low cost boats were made with poor quality steel, possibly more prone to corrosion or damage). Some 6mm hulls fall into this class.

 

Engines - This can be a minefield; those based on Kubota engines tend to be more reliable and spares are fairly easily available. Vetus are also popular but spares are expensive

Old Lister engines are pretty solid but the air cooled variety are noisy and "aren't very good at charging batteries..." (ask...)

I personally (and will probably get flamed for it) would avoid any BMC conversions, later small Listers, Kingfisher, anything made in India or China or twin-pot directly water cooled engines made for sailing boats.

[Traveller]

 

Hi Tony thanks for the info. Can I ask what will seem an obvious question? 10, 6, 4 in the same condition as 6, 6, 4 or 8, 6, 4 would be the better option?

 

 

It all depends on the condition and you are not saying whether condition is good or bad. You would not want to buy a boat that was badly corroded so if the 10.6.4 was in the same condition as a corroded 8.6.4 or 6.6.4 you would not want either! If on the other hand the condition was good you would be driven by price, survey report, boat suitability and builder. Steel thickness is just one consideration.

Edited September 2, 2015 by Traveller

[Southern Star]

 

Can I ask what will seem an obvious question? 10, 6, 4 in the same condition as 6, 6, 4 or 8, 6, 4 would be the better option?

 

All I can say is that I have an 8mm baseplate, my boat is 28 years old and when I had it surveyed last year the minimum thickness the surveyor could find was 7.4mm so I confidently predict it will still be floating long after I have kicked the bucket.

[Traveller]

All I can say is that I have an 8mm baseplate, my boat is 28 years old and when I had it surveyed last year the minimum thickness the surveyor could find was 7.4mm so I confidently predict it will still be floating long after I have kicked the bucket.

 

Likewise :-)

[Benny the Ball]

Folks get confused about TV reception -

Sky is reception via a satellite dish. You can receive satellite transmissions free and this is known as Freesat. To confuse matters you can receive these channels for no charge on a Sky box. Sky calls that 'Freesat from Sky'

There's 'no way' you can get Sky Sports without paying it for it (in some way ? deal), but you can still pay for a subscription if you're on a boat - some on here do just that.

Freeview is TV received via an aerial (the signal comes from transmitters in various places around the country.

The channels available on Freeview are broadly the same as those on Freesat - and that's why you've not seen the need for it!

 

(Sorry to be pedantic but TV reception methods confuse the hell out of some folks)

 

Mr Brooks was saying that there's nothing inherently wrong or bad in having a 6,8 or 10mm baseplate - it's a matter of how well the boat was made and how well they have been maintained afterwards (some low cost boats were made with poor quality steel, possibly more prone to corrosion or damage). Some 6mm hulls fall into this class.

 

Engines - This can be a minefield; those based on Kubota engines tend to be more reliable and spares are fairly easily available. Vetus are also popular but spares are expensive

Old Lister engines are pretty solid but the air cooled variety are noisy and "aren't very good at charging batteries..." (ask...)

I personally (and will probably get flamed for it) would avoid any BMC conversions, later small Listers, Kingfisher, anything made in India or China or twin-pot directly water cooled engines made for sailing boats.

 

Thanks Oldgoat especially on the engine advice. So if I want Sky sports I can have it? I guess it just means pointing the dish in the right direction? Im not decided yet but thought I would ask as it popped in my head as I was typing the OP

All I can say is that I have an 8mm baseplate, my boat is 28 years old and when I had it surveyed last year the minimum thickness the surveyor could find was 7.4mm so I confidently predict it will still be floating long after I have kicked the bucket.

 

Nice to know about the steel longevity not about kicking the bucket

It all depends on the condition and you are not saying whether condition is good or bad. You would not want to buy a boat that was badly corroded so if the 10.6.4 was in the same condition as a corroded 8.6.4 or 6.6.4 you would not want either! If on the other hand the condition was good you would be driven by price, survey report, boat suitability and builder. Steel thickness is just one consideration.

 

 

Hi Traveller yes, my main requirement is the boat being in good order as well as making sure I have a good engine. The cosmetics are a little further down the order - priorities

Edited September 2, 2015 by Benny the Ball

[MtB]

All I can say is that I have an 8mm baseplate, my boat is 28 years old and when I had it surveyed last year the minimum thickness the surveyor could find was 7.4mm so I confidently predict it will still be floating long after I have kicked the bucket.

 

 

Yes ok. But what is the thickness of the baseplate on your boat?

[Southern Star]

 

 

I have done some research and would like to know if there are any types of engine to avoid and at the same time, any that are recommended?

 

Taking your post a bit at a time, the only engines to avoid are ones with rubber camshaft belts rather than timing chains, Ford and Volkswagen for example. There are very few of these about, although they do exist.

 

BMC, Kubota, Beta Marine are all good names to look for.

[Benny the Ball]

Taking your post a bit at a time, the only engines to avoid are ones with rubber camshaft belts rather than timing chains, Ford and Volkswagen for example. There are very few of these about, although they do exist.

 

BMC, Kubota, Beta Marine are all good names to look for.

 

Lister? I read mainly good reports about them . . .

[Southern Star]

 

Lister? I read mainly good reports about them . . .

I understand that they are excellent engines although my local boat engineer told me to avoid the three cylinder versions, or at least one particular version of it, I can't remember why, if I see him tomorrow I'll ask him although I'm sure there will be many other owners with Lister engines who know far more about them than I do.

[magictime]

Mooring, schmooring. If you're working in Leeds, save yourself a couple of grand by getting a mooring permit in winter and cruising continuously around West and North Yorkshire for the other seven or eight months of the year. There are many convenient places to moor, close to rail stations and within a half hour or so commute, along the Leeds-Liverpool in one direction and along the Aire and Calder and as far as the Huddersfield Broad and the Rochdale in the other.

 

Sounds good to me anyway! Not for everyone though, I guess. Aire Valley Marina always looks like a nice spot. I think they have some residential moorings if that's what you need. (You may not, even if you are living aboard and staying put most of the year; I think different marinas take different attitudes to people living on 'leisure' moorings.) The moorings above Bingley Five Rise are at the start of a long, exceptionally scenic lock-free stretch that runs through Skipton and on to Gargrave, which would make for some great weekend cruises.

 

Sorry, I know you're asking about more practical, liveaboard-y things really, but I can't help thinking about it from more of a boating perspective - I've enjoyed many cruises around that area.

[OldGoat]

 

Thanks Oldgoat especially on the engine advice. So if I want Sky sports I can have it? I guess it just means pointing the dish in the right direction? Im not decided yet but thought I would ask as it popped in my head as I was typing the OP

 

....

 

 

 

You can get Sky Sports but you have to pay for it as the transmissions are encrypted. It's not a matter of pointing the dish at a different location. Quite expensive - considering everything else is pretty much free!

[Tony Brooks]

Older Listers and Petters are good solid engines but you may expect to pay more for a boat with one and it will be ins a separate engine room taking space form the communication. The air cooled examples like the SRs and SLs need no frost protection and when in good condition should start easily on the coldest days but they are noisy (air cooled) and have a habit of filling their sumps with fuel. The modern units have, I think, hydraulic tappets that sound like a good idea but unless you keep right on top of your oil changes and use a flush additive may well cause you starting problems.

 

Just like you hull spec. question, once you remove the belt timed (mainly Ford & Lombardini) engines the answer depends upon condition and quality of installation. Personally I would be happy with anything BMC (1.8 or 1.5), Kubota based or Mitsubishi based but the silly idea about reasonable price for parts and some verbal limitations to their warranty would make me shy away from Vetus.

 

Just my opinion, others think differently.

[Emerald Fox]

There are also engines made by a Danish company - Bukh:

 

 

DV10 (1 cylinder 10hp), DV20 (2 cylinder)

[Arthur Brown]

Look at 100 online ads for narrow boats,

Look at the details on half of those

 

Decide what is to your liking and what is not, but remember you are NOT going to get everything you want in an old boat.

 

Go to see about 20 boats

 

See whether you like anything.

[Tony Brooks]

There are also engines made by a Danish company - Bukh:

 

DV10 (1 cylinder 10hp), DV20 (2 cylinder)

 

 

Now you are talking - love my DV36.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Tony Brooks

[Benny the Ball]

I understand that they are excellent engines although my local boat engineer told me to avoid the three cylinder versions, or at least one particular version of it, I can't remember why, if I see him tomorrow I'll ask him although I'm sure there will be many other owners with Lister engines who know far more about them than I do.

 

Thanks again

Mooring, schmooring. If you're working in Leeds, save yourself a couple of grand by getting a mooring permit in winter and cruising continuously around West and North Yorkshire for the other seven or eight months of the year. There are many convenient places to moor, close to rail stations and within a half hour or so commute, along the Leeds-Liverpool in one direction and along the Aire and Calder and as far as the Huddersfield Broad and the Rochdale in the other.

 

Sounds good to me anyway! Not for everyone though, I guess. Aire Valley Marina always looks like a nice spot. I think they have some residential moorings if that's what you need. (You may not, even if you are living aboard and staying put most of the year; I think different marinas take different attitudes to people living on 'leisure' moorings.) The moorings above Bingley Five Rise are at the start of a long, exceptionally scenic lock-free stretch that runs through Skipton and on to Gargrave, which would make for some great weekend cruises.

 

Sorry, I know you're asking about more practical, liveaboard-y things really, but I can't help thinking about it from more of a boating perspective - I've enjoyed many cruises around that area.

 

 

hey magictime, sounds like you get about! Erm, the thing is I work in Horsforth and sometimes long hours so I would find it almost impossible to get back to the boat of an evening and move it somewhere else, then have to move my vehicle aswell? Or am I missing something in your explanation? I guess if I was retired I could do these things . . ?

Look at 100 online ads for narrow boats,

Look at the details on half of those

 

Decide what is to your liking and what is not, but remember you are NOT going to get everything you want in an old boat.

 

Go to see about 20 boats

 

See whether you like anything.

 

cheers Arthur. Going out hopefully on Sunday

Older Listers and Petters are good solid engines but you may expect to pay more for a boat with one and it will be ins a separate engine room taking space form the communication. The air cooled examples like the SRs and SLs need no frost protection and when in good condition should start easily on the coldest days but they are noisy (air cooled) and have a habit of filling their sumps with fuel. The modern units have, I think, hydraulic tappets that sound like a good idea but unless you keep right on top of your oil changes and use a flush additive may well cause you starting problems.

 

Just like you hull spec. question, once you remove the belt timed (mainly Ford & Lombardini) engines the answer depends upon condition and quality of installation. Personally I would be happy with anything BMC (1.8 or 1.5), Kubota based or Mitsubishi based but the silly idea about reasonable price for parts and some verbal limitations to their warranty would make me shy away from Vetus.

 

Just my opinion, others think differently.

 

Again thanks for taking the time to write, your knowledge is well appreciated. Where abouts are you based Tony?

[Alan Saunders]

hey magictime, sounds like you get about! Erm, the thing is I work in Horsforth and sometimes long hours so I would find it almost impossible to get back to the boat of an evening and move it somewhere else, then have to move my vehicle aswell? Or am I missing something in your explanation? I guess if I was retired I could do these things . . ?

There was a recent thread - Commuting by boat?

 

One suggestion that may work for you was to obtain a leisure mooring near to work. On your days off cruise to a towpath mooring nearer to work. Stay there legally for up to fourteen days then return to your mooring for a night or two or another 'place' for a further fourteen days.

 

You would be using the mooring only for leisure. In the winter ice or flood may obstruct your movements and you may prefer to commute from your mooring.

 

Alan

[Benny the Ball]

There was a recent thread - Commuting by boat?

 

One suggestion that may work for you was to obtain a leisure mooring near to work. On your days off cruise to a towpath mooring nearer to work. Stay there legally for up to fourteen days then return to your mooring for a night or two or another 'place' for a further fourteen days.

 

You would be using the mooring only for leisure. In the winter ice or flood may obstruct your movements and you may prefer to commute from your mooring.

 

Alan

 

Hi Alan - sounds like good advice but maybe I will have to do research around that area? See where lets me stay for what length of time and see where I can only stay for a short spell. If I moored up at a random area along the canal, would that allow me 14 days? And if this is the case, how far do I have to move when my time is up?

[nebulae]

Dont forget Isuzu engines. They are used by many hire companies and spares,filters etc are available from a number of chandlers .We have a 42 which is giving good service and averages 1.6 litres per hour.

[magictime]

 

hey magictime, sounds like you get about! Erm, the thing is I work in Horsforth and sometimes long hours so I would find it almost impossible to get back to the boat of an evening and move it somewhere else, then have to move my vehicle aswell? Or am I missing something in your explanation? I guess if I was retired I could do these things . . ?

 

Well, I wasn't picturing you moving the boat in the evenings! Just cruising to a new commuting base every other weekend.

 

I appreciate it wouldn't be for everyone, but if you liked the idea of combining a semi-nomadic lifestyle with a settled job, I reckon you could pull it off in this particular area just because (1) Leeds is at or near the junction of several different waterways, so there's no question of having to stretch the definition of 'continuous cruising' by sticking to the same few miles of the same canal, and (2) so many towns along local waterways have direct train services to Leeds - from, say, Huddersfield in one direction to Skipton in the other.

 

I guess the whole calculation changes if you're commuting by car rather than train. Alan may well be right that a 'halfway house' is your best option - i.e. get a leisure mooring rather than looking for a scarcer and more expensive residential mooring, and spend some of your time on that mooring and some elsewhere.

 

There's no 'official' distance by which you have to move after 14 days, although a figure of 1km cropped up in some recent CRT document I believe. In practice you'd be wanting to move to another convenient spot, anyway - in terms of transport, shops, etc. - which might well be a few miles away in another town.