Engine re-build or replacement- help required

[David Schweizer]

look - when Halfords decides you are obsolete then the END is NIGH.

they don't even keep rear wiper blade for a 2011 Audi A4 Avant - so I'm scrapping it poste haste.

 

They have also discontinued the windscreen wiper bades for the VW passat B5 ans B5.5 (1996- 2005) and must be thousands of them still on the road

[Tony Brooks]

Just back from having a look at the boat. It seems the last two times it was started was by two RCR chaps using their jump packs. The engine is a dark blue Mitsubishi with no mariniser marks or labels. The OP told me that when it started it seemed to starst on less than four cylinder and gradually all would come in and the it ran smoothly.

 

The written report I saw stated that three injectors had been removed and cleaned but the forth one was cracked so was left in. It also claimed that the sump was empty. It did indeed suggest a loss of compression and advised a new engine.

 

Personally I am not happy with the "cleaning" of the injectors, a proper job requires stripping, possibly ultrasonic cleaning, and setting up on a test rig. There is no safe way to test the spray pattern and no way to measure the break pressure without a test pump.

 

The OP told me the RCR chap had a compression tester but did not use it because he felt the lack of compression was obvious. He sited oil being expelled form the sump drain pump as one indication.

 

 

I measured the glow plug current and found it to be 32 amps steady, but had expected around 100 amps dropping fairly fast to 50. May be it is only more modern plugs that draw that amount and the glow plug cables were very thin (I would estimate less than 1 sq mm CCSA) and the feed cable was getting warm. i tried a jump lead direct from start battery to glowplugs but they drew about the same. Edited to add- I tried the blow lamp down the air intake trick outwit success.

 

It had a new electric lift pump (no internal filter) and loosening the injector pump bleed screw showed ample fuel with no signs of air.

 

The start battery voltage showed about 12.4 post to post but immediately dropped to 8 and then to 7 volts when cranking. The engine did not crank fast enough to make any sort of diagnosis except that I would have expected it to lock at 7 volts so this tend to confirm the RCR advice. It also had a car type battery mounted isolator switch on the engine negative posts wired act as the isolator for both banks. This got warm when cranking and was loose on the post. There was also so kind of isolator switch in the aft cupboard (possibly a 1,2,both, off type).

 

We changed the battery for a larger car type showing green on the magic eye. This time the voltage dropped to about 8.5 and it cranked fast enough to produce some smoke. Relatively little black smoke being emitted in puffs that seemed to correspond to the what sounded like one cylinder attempting to fire. There was no sign of vaporised fuel (white smoke) from the other cylinders.

 

The starter was too difficult for me to get at the terminals so I was unable to test the voltdrop on the start circuit (I am rather arthritic these days).

 

I notice the boat was using a single alternator and a simple split charge diode plus a 250 watt solar panel connected to the domestic battery. This may go some way to explaining the flat/faulty engine battery and previous difficulties in starting but the excessive drop in battery voltage (post to post) might indicate a starter fault but it did not feel warm.

 

My conclusions are that the boat really needs its engine electrics sorting out but there are other problems to address first. I suggested to the OP that he asks the Forum for recommendations for trusted engineers in the Reading/Newbury area who he can discuss his next step. Personally I think it inexcusable a compression test was not done if time was found to remove and "clean" injectors (in fact this "cleaning" might have knocked the pintles off some injectors). I could not recommend the removal of the injectors and taking them for testing/overhaul without a compression test with which to assess the probability of doing so resulting in at least a temporary return to reliable starting.

 

I explained how a bare engine or short motor might be more cost effective than a new engine but that the OP needs to employ a professional to do a compression test and discuss the best way forward with him. It seem those he has already contacted (possibly boatyards & marinas) are agents for other makes and only seem to want to sell a complete new engine of a different make with all that entails. Hence my advice to ask here about engineers who are likely to have a sensible conversation with him.

Edited August 18, 2015 by Tony Brooks

[PSimmo]

Tony,

It was very nice to meet you and I appreciate your time this evening, including writing this update to the forum.

 

If there is anyone out there that could recommend anyone/help us look into our options further, it would be appreciated.

 

All the best.

[Tony Dunkley]

In the event of a replacement engine being necessary, and provided it's an automotive base engine rather than industrial, it may be worthwhile to try and source one from a scrap vehicle. I think it would be useful to you in deciding how best to proceed if you could obtain some detailed info. on it's origins and applications and the cost/availability of rebuild parts.

The RCR attempt, as described, to diagnose the problem was pointless and unprofessional, and has the distinct whiff of a token exercise intended to convince you to buy a new one.

[larkshall]

I was reading this thread while sitting on a forklift. Mitsubishi. Blue in colour. I suspect the engine in question might be based upon an industrial unit. That being the case, one of the local forklift agents near you might be a possible way forward

[Tony Dunkley]

I was reading this thread while sitting on a forklift. Mitsubishi. Blue in colour. I suspect the engine in question might be based upon an industrial unit. That being the case, one of the local forklift agents near you might be a possible way forward

 

It may be useful if you could get some identification details from it, engine number plus a description, forklift model and type, photo's of the engine etc etc.

[Alan de Enfield]

If you get totally 'stuck' and end up replacing the engine I have a 'spare' Lister LPWS4 fully marinised and complete with a PRM150 gearbox.

 

It will no doubt entail some jiggling about with engine mounts, plumbing and wiring ( but so will any engine that is not identical to the original)

 

The price will be £1000s less than a new engine.

 

When you have 5 posts you will be able to use the PM (Messaging) system so can contact me.

Its not going anywhere for a while so look at your other options first.

[larkshall]

Quick test, you want a good stout spanner that will fit on crankshaft pulley. Turn the engine over be hand. For every revolution there are two compression peaks. Do they occur? btw you need to do this for two revolutions, you should get four in total, ideally each requiring the same force to overcome.

[PSimmo]

^{I will take some photos of the engine to upload and I'll see if I can find any identification details on it. There's a photo of the engine when it is brand new (at least we assume it is this engine) in the files that came with the boat, which could be useful.}

 

^{Thanks larkshall for your offer, we'll certainly bear that in mind.}

[Batavia]

The Mitsubishi K4 industrial engine was marinised by a company called Boatserve (run by Nick ???, latterly based in Braunston, 20+ years ago, but long since defunct) and the engines were normally painted blue (we had what I think was the only green one).

 

When we changed the engine in Daedalus many years ago, we sold the Boatserve one to Ownerships as a spare, as some of their early boats used these engines.

 

I believe that Justin Green (JG Marine) in Braunston has a fair amount of experience of them, albeit from a while ago.

 

Chris G

[PSimmo]

Thanks Chris, I was just doing some research today and came across an NB for sale with a Boatserve (who I'd not heard of before) K4 engine, on the link below-

 

http://www.apolloduck.hk/image.phtml?id=438027ℑ=3

 

From the limited photo on the link, our engine looks very similar to this one.

 

Did you change your Boatserve engine for any particular reason?

 

Our NB was fitted out in Stoke-On-Trent by Barry Wren, and I believe Boatserve's yard used to be in the same neck of the woods. Had struggled to find much information on them, but your post clarifies that they are no longer operating.

 

I'll call Justin and add photos of our engine on here tomorrow.

[Bod]

Hi there,

 

This is my first post, although I'm regularly reviewing other topics for help with our liveaboard narrowboat! Thanks in advance for reading.

 

We have a Mitsubishi K4E keel cooled engine (4 cylinder 1.4l) in our 52ft narrowboat, which will not start due to loss of compression concluded by RCR.

 

We have been recommended 3 options:

 

1. Overhaul/rebuild;

2. Replace with a used/recon engine;

3. Replace with a new engine;

 

We have looked into new engine prices/fitting etc and it's simply unaffordable for us.

 

Any advice on options 1 or 2 would be really really appreciated, and if further information would help, I can see what I can provide you.

 

Many thanks for your time.

 

 

 

I believe this engine is the same base motor as a Vetus M414.

If it's the same as mine, there is an unannounced bleed screw on the injector pump. ( look for a hexagon bolt head with a screwdriver slot. )

 

Bod

[bag 'o' bones]

If I were in your position I would:

 

Invest in a compression tester.

 

First check the compression of each cylinder - note pressures. The cylinder pressures of a generally sound engine should be within 10% of each other

 

A significantly low pressure indicates a problem.

 

Pour a teaspoon of oil down each bore. If the pressure increases then this indicates a ring problem or very worn bore.

 

If the pressure does not increase then this indicates a sticking or burnt valve or blown head gasket.

 

If your really unlucky you might have a cracked head though it would be have to be particularly bad to prevent starting.

 

Rebuilds are cheaper then new engines and not necessarily an inferior choice.

 

There is plenty of scope for DIY (no one enjoys valve lapping).

 

 

[bag 'o' bones]

Halford's in Stroud advised me to replace my engine as they didn't keep oil filters for the engine I had !!

Well then you were talking to an idiot. I used to work for Halfords Telford. When I worked on the parts desk I would always find a solution to the problem even if it meant breaking out the handy 'Practical Classics' magazine from under the counter!

Halfords don't even stock brake pads on the shelf these days!

[Geoff Taylor]

I agree with the comments made by Tony and that despite RCRs man removing 3 injectors, he did not pressure test those 3 cylinders as even this would give a guide towards the engine condition and his "cleaning the injectors" were pointless unless tested first as well as the valve clearances.

The observed blowing out of oil via the sump pump could have been a sign of a blocked breather or oil overfill and not cylinder blow by as assumed by RCR, Like Tony, I always try to look at the bigger picture before making an immediate assumption upon the overall state of an engine.

 

The engine was reported to have run smoothly after a lumpy start up, this can be down to glow plugs/compression/tight valve clearances/ poor injectors or a totally clapped engine and so far no firm diagnosis can be made as my guess is down to insufficient battery power or lazy starter motor hampering the ability to re start in order for Tony to have furthered his expert diagnosis, so basically we are all none the wiser until these issues are sorted.

[Batavia]

Thanks Chris, I was just doing some research today and came across an NB for sale with a Boatserve (who I'd not heard of before) K4 engine, on the link below-

 

http://www.apolloduck.hk/image.phtml?id=438027ℑ=3

 

From the limited photo on the link, our engine looks very similar to this one.

 

Did you change your Boatserve engine for any particular reason?

 

Our NB was fitted out in Stoke-On-Trent by Barry Wren, and I believe Boatserve's yard used to be in the same neck of the woods. Had struggled to find much information on them, but your post clarifies that they are no longer operating.

 

 

The Boatserve version of the Mitsubishi engine was excellent and we only replaced it when we had Daedalus lengthened (a 1.4 litre engine in a reasonably deep-draughted 66 foot boat seemed a bit on the small side).

 

From what I recall, Boatserve was initially based somewhere on the Northern Oxford (?? I think that perhaps Nick's family ran Clifton Cruisers at the time ??) and from the early 1990s until he shut down, the company was based in Braunston Marina, in the building was subsequently used by Peter Nicholls.

 

Chris G

[Tony Brooks]

I believe this engine is the same base motor as a Vetus M414.

If it's the same as mine, there is an unannounced bleed screw on the injector pump. ( look for a hexagon bolt head with a screwdriver slot. )

 

Bod

 

It has one and that is where I checked the supply of diesel.

[Tony Brooks]

snip

 

The observed blowing out of oil via the sump pump could have been a sign of a blocked breather .

 

snip

 

The engine was reported to have run smoothly after a lumpy start up, this can be down to glow plugs/compression/tight valve clearances/ poor injectors or a totally clapped engine and so far no firm diagnosis can be made as my guess is down to insufficient battery power or lazy starter motor hampering the ability to re start in order for Tony to have furthered his expert diagnosis, so basically we are all none the wiser until these issues are sorted.

 

The breather was clear and very easy to blow through.

 

I agree with the second point. The speed a battery delivering 7 to 8 volts cranking turned the engine over suggested a lack of compression.

 

I had considered that if eh engine had been sat for a long time carbon from the valve area might have fallen off and was now jamming the valves slightly open. (we used to get their in the spring on BMC 2.2s on the hire fleet) but it was running earlier in the year (be it with poor starting) and RCR had twice run it recently using their power packs so this is very unlikely.

[bizzard]

Another basic test for lack of compression on any 'cylinder-cylinders' is to keep the engine stop pulled out or disconnected so no fuel is delivered and crank the engine over on the starter. The compressions if equal should sound regular like; grur-rur- rur-rur-rur-rur- rur- rur-rur and so on. If any compressions are not good the sound will not be regular but will sound something like grur-rur-wee-rur-rur-rur-wee-rur-rur-rur-wee-rur and so on or different combinations depending on which cylinders compressions are weak as the engine momentarily speeds up as it it passes the weak compression. If the engine spins around faster without much resistance at all like gru-ru-ru-ru-ru-ru-ru or worse still even faster wee-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee and so on, not much compression at all on all cylinders. All done with a good charged up battery.

That is usually my first basic check for low compression before delving further. Same for petrol engines with ignition turned off.

To add to that, whilst cranking blow by's through either air intake or exhaust may be heard as an irregular shuuk, shuuk, shuuk which indicate inlet or exhaust valves not seating properly, either through worn or burnt out seats or too tight adjustment.

 

Donkeys years ago Brown Brothers the garage equipment company made a kit that checked for compression leaks which comprised of an air hose and adapter to screw into each spark plug hole. You screwed the hose into a cylinder spark plug hole with the other end connected to and air compressor receiver. Turn the engine around until the cylinder to be checked had its piston up with both valves fully shut and turned the air on. If air hissed from the air intake or exhaust pipe the valves were not seating or if excessive air was blasting out of the oil filler, breather or blew the dipstick sky high, pistons or rings in trouble.

Edited August 19, 2015 by bizzard

[larkshall]

It's a pity I'm stuck in the north, I have both compression tester, and leak down tester.

 

Checked with our forklift fitter, yes you forklift has a k4 engine, he says is a very common block. Most common faults is a crack occurring across pots 2 and 3 usually causes compression problems, usually but not exclusively accompanied by water in oil. This is a fussy engine, injectors need to have an even spray pattern, and heaters need to work. I note both forklifts we have have bloody great batteries. I'll try and find out what the CCA is.

[Tony Brooks]

Another basic test for lack of compression on any 'cylinder-cylinders' is to keep the engine stop pulled out or disconnected so no fuel is delivered and crank the engine over on the starter. The compressions if equal should sound regular like; grur-rur- rur-rur-rur-rur- rur- rur-rur and so on. If any compressions are not good the sound will not be regular but will sound something like grur-rur-wee-rur-rur-rur-wee-rur-rur-rur-wee-rur and so on or different combinations depending on which cylinders compressions are weak as the engine momentarily speeds up as it it passes the weak compression. If the engine spins around faster without much resistance at all like gru-ru-ru-ru-ru-ru-ru or worse still even faster wee-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee and so on, not much compression at all on all cylinders. All done with a good charged up battery.

That is usually my first basic check for low compression before delving further.

 

Whilst I did not isolate the fuel supply the engine was going gru-ee-ee-ee and when we got the car battery on the gru pretty much was in time with small puff of black smoke.

[larkshall]

Another basic test for lack of compression on any 'cylinder-cylinders' is to keep the engine stop pulled out or disconnected so no fuel is delivered and crank the engine over on the starter. The compressions if equal should sound regular like; grur-rur- rur-rur-rur-rur- rur- rur-rur and so on. If any compressions are not good the sound will not be regular but will sound something like grur-rur-wee-rur-rur-rur-wee-rur-rur-rur-wee-rur and so on or different combinations depending on which cylinders compressions are weak as the engine momentarily speeds up as it it passes the weak compression. If the engine spins around faster without much resistance at all like gru-ru-ru-ru-ru-ru-ru or worse still even faster wee-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee and so on, not much compression at all on all cylinders. All done with a good charged up battery.

That is usually my first basic check for low compression before delving further. Same for petrol engines with ignition turned off.

To add to that, whilst cranking blow by's through either air intake or exhaust may be heard as an irregular shuuk, shuuk, shuuk which indicate inlet or exhaust valves not seating properly, either through worn or burnt out seats or too tight adjustment.

 

Donkeys years ago Brown Brothers the garage equipment company made a kit that checked for compression leaks which comprised of an air hose and adapter to screw into each spark plug hole. You screwed the hose into a cylinder spark plug hole with the other end connected to and air compressor receiver. Turn the engine around until the cylinder to be checked had its piston up with both valves fully shut and turned the air on. If air hissed from the air intake or exhaust pipe the valves were not seating or if excessive air was blasting out of the oil filler, breather or blew the dipstick sky high, pistons or rings in trouble.

That is a slight mod on the theme of a leak down tester. Much more dramatic though, and quicker than pumping up for leakdown test.

[PSimmo]

I had thought a compression tester was a much more expensive bit of kit, but at 40quid, I'll order one of these and give it a go- https://www.vidaxl.co.uk/p/210004/17-piece-compression-tester-diesel

 

Larkshall and Chris, good to know the K4 are common/popular engines, I've spoken with diamond diesels as well who have said they have all the parts for these engines, I just need to let them know what we need. The battery we have is a Lion 96Ah 680CCA. I have it on charge, to give it another go but I don't actually know how old it is, as it was already on the boat when we bought it over a year ago. It may well need replacing.

 

I have taken a couple of photos of the engine, but not sure how to upload them onto here. Will look into it when I get a minute.

[OldGoat]

; grur-rur- rur-rur-rur-rur- rur- rur-rur and so on. gru-ru-ru-ru-ru-ru-ru or wee-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee-ee and so on

irregular shuuk, shuuk, shuuk

 

Any connections with the late Percy Edwards??

[Tony Brooks]

I had thought a compression tester was a much more expensive bit of kit, but at 40quid, I'll order one of these and give it a go- https://www.vidaxl.co.uk/p/210004/17-piece-compression-tester-diesel

 

 

 

While you have glowplugs out I would suggest that you test each one using jump leads and the battery. Think they will be OK but best be sure. The tip should glow red within a few seconds.