Back Cabin Stoves

[Up-Side-Down]

In the course of researching back cabin stoves I've just stumbled across this web site on the net. Can anyone (particularly Lawrence) comment?

 

http://osbornerestor...ck-cabin-stove/

[Rose Narrowboats]

Most of those are are on the big side for a motor back cabin - I've seen the Dover used in butties though.

 

Interesting that he is putting a copy of the Nipper into production - that has been better known as the Premier in recent years, built by Peter Jones and sold via Midland Chandlers but no longer available I understand.

Edited June 7, 2015 by Rose Narrowboats

[frangar]

In the course of researching back cabin stoves I've just stumbled across this web site on the net. Can anyone (particularly Lawrence) comment?

 

http://osbornerestor...ck-cabin-stove/

Wow. That might be just the chap I need to restore the range in my back cabin. Mines similar to a guidwife but made in Colchester & apparently from a Thames sailing barge. I know it won't be cheap but it's a lovely range!

 

Thanks very much for the link.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[frangar]

Edited to remove double posting

Edited June 8, 2015 by frangar

[onionbargee]

How do you control the air intake on those ranges with open grates ?

[frangar]

How do you control the air intake on those ranges with open grates ?

Mine has a diverter damper on the flue which directs the exhaust either directly up the flue or round the oven.....it's crude and can cause the BSS chap to suck their teeth a bit.......

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[onionbargee]

I meant on the firebox.

[frangar]

I meant on the firebox.

So did I!....that's all you get....it just reduces the updraft as the exhaust has further to go.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[Laurence Hogg]

In the course of researching back cabin stoves I've just stumbled across this web site on the net. Can anyone (particularly Lawrence) comment?

 

http://osbornerestor...ck-cabin-stove/

 

(I already have commented in the History and Heritage section where you posted the same question.)

 

Re Osborne link. Its very interesting but the history referring to boating shows flaws with the knowledge. No where is the Esse "Diamond" mentioned which was very popular on butty or horse boats also whilst mentioning the Dover range they seem unaware that the "Stratford" was a Dover in disguise or that they are still techiically in production in South Africa by Falkirk industries

.

Many of the Guidwife" style were badge engineered and sold under other names too.

 

The comment that ranges in production are all repro is wrong, the "Epping" is still made using the original patterns, The "Stratford" is a Dover No3 made in South Africa by the original firm and the Premiere was a new improved stove based on the "Nipper" (which had many faults) which was found extensively in motor boat cabins where 24" would not fit. The "Premiere" addressed the issues of the "Nipper" and was a very efficient unit reaching roasting temp in just over 30 mins from cold, the three dampers and diverter made it very controllable and despite the small firebox it would stay in overnight.

 

The historical references to fiddle rails is wrong too, all old fiddle rails were completely removable and not fixed as most modern ones are. The "sample" he shows was around in the 1980's and is a modern one.

.

Having manufactured the "Premiere" myself I wish him good luck, they were absolute swine's to make, you built them upside down so the top plate was the first thing to seal, they were slow to produce and did't do a lot for the bottom line, which is why I sold the "Premiere" to Midland Chandlers in 1989 and they soon found the same pitfalls. They never produced ones as good as Boatmans Cabin made, the extras soon disappeared and now I think it is out of production.

 

A BCC built premiere:

 

 

The Esse "Diamond"

 

 

If anyone is brave enough go to to South Africa to this firm and load up!

http://www.dassies.co.za/stoves.php#

[Up-Side-Down]

 

(I already have commented in the History and Heritage section where you posted the same question.)

 

Re Osborne link. Its very interesting but the history referring to boating shows flaws with the knowledge. No where is the Esse "Diamond" mentioned which was very popular on butty or horse boats also whilst mentioning the Dover range they seem unaware that the "Stratford" was a Dover in disguise or that they are still techiically in production in South Africa by Falkirk industries

.

Many of the Guidwife" style were badge engineered and sold under other names too.

 

The comment that ranges in production are all repro is wrong, the "Epping" is still made using the original patterns, The "Stratford" is a Dover No3 made in South Africa by the original firm and the Premiere was a new improved stove based on the "Nipper" (which had many faults) which was found extensively in motor boat cabins where 24" would not fit. The "Premiere" addressed the issues of the "Nipper" and was a very efficient unit reaching roasting temp in just over 30 mins from cold, the three dampers and diverter made it very controllable and despite the small firebox it would stay in overnight.

 

The historical references to fiddle rails is wrong too, all old fiddle rails were completely removable and not fixed as most modern ones are. The "sample" he shows was around in the 1980's and is a modern one.

.

Having manufactured the "Premiere" myself I wish him good luck, they were absolute swine's to make, you built them upside down so the top plate was the first thing to seal, they were slow to produce and did't do a lot for the bottom line, which is why I sold the "Premiere" to Midland Chandlers in 1989 and they soon found the same pitfalls. They never produced ones as good as Boatmans Cabin made, the extras soon disappeared and now I think it is out of production.

 

A BCC built premiere:

 

 

The Esse "Diamond"

 

 

If anyone is brave enough go to to South Africa to this firm and load up!

http://www.dassies.co.za/stoves.php#

 

Thanks for your observations Laurence - I knew you'd have as much insight as anyone.

 

I'm involved with fitting out a sailaway tug at the moment and spent much of today bemoaning the loss of BCC. When I fitted out my own tug 16 years ago pretty well every bit of Brassware (and castings etc) came from BCC and fantastic quality it was too. Trying to source stuff of similar quality today is sorely taxing me ......... and as for getting it all from one place ......... I can forget that for starters!

[onionbargee]

So did I!....that's all you get....it just reduces the updraft as the exhaust has further to go.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

Sounds lethal ?

[OllyOsborne]

On 08/06/2015 at 19:54, Laurence Hogg said:

 

(I already have commented in the History and Heritage section where you posted the same question.)

 

Re Osborne link. Its very interesting but the history referring to boating shows flaws with the knowledge. No where is the Esse "Diamond" mentioned which was very popular on butty or horse boats also whilst mentioning the Dover range they seem unaware that the "Stratford" was a Dover in disguise or that they are still techiically in production in South Africa by Falkirk industries

.

Many of the Guidwife" style were badge engineered and sold under other names too.

 

The comment that ranges in production are all repro is wrong, the "Epping" is still made using the original patterns, The "Stratford" is a Dover No3 made in South Africa by the original firm and the Premiere was a new improved stove based on the "Nipper" (which had many faults) which was found extensively in motor boat cabins where 24" would not fit. The "Premiere" addressed the issues of the "Nipper" and was a very efficient unit reaching roasting temp in just over 30 mins from cold, the three dampers and diverter made it very controllable and despite the small firebox it would stay in overnight.

 

The historical references to fiddle rails is wrong too, all old fiddle rails were completely removable and not fixed as most modern ones are. The "sample" he shows was around in the 1980's and is a modern one.

.

Having manufactured the "Premiere" myself I wish him good luck, they were absolute swine's to make, you built them upside down so the top plate was the first thing to seal, they were slow to produce and did't do a lot for the bottom line, which is why I sold the "Premiere" to Midland Chandlers in 1989 and they soon found the same pitfalls. They never produced ones as good as Boatmans Cabin made, the extras soon disappeared and now I think it is out of production.

 

A BCC built premiere:

 

 

The Esse "Diamond"

 

 

If anyone is brave enough go to to South Africa to this firm and load up!

http://www.dassies.co.za/stoves.php#

I was just researching back cabin stoves and came across this post.  Whilst I appreciate its now very old, as the chap behind Osborne restoration I thought it might be helpful to respond since this thread still comes up in Google searches on the subject.

The text on the site is only very simple and designed to give a quick overview of the subject to the uninitiated.  It doesn’t represent a detailed history.

 

Re the Diamond, yes of course I am aware of that stove.  It was designed specifically for boats (and other moving vechlies/craft) and was marketed as such by the manufacturer Smith & Wellstood.  Esse was a trading name/ sister company more geared up to the sale of French style anthracite burning heating stoves despite what the contemporary owners of the name would have you believe.

 

There are of course a litany of other specific stoves that could be mentioned at this time if a list of all suitable stoves is what is required.

 

As for the Diamond I don’t doubt it’s been used in narrow boats but in its standard trim I’d think it would be a bit big as it has an extended hearth and heavy iron fiddle that leans out and so creates a 27” width x 21” depth (from memory) 

A Guidwife (typically used in buttys as to large for many motors) is 24” x 16.5” for comparison.

 

Re the Stratford. Yes I’m aware it is of the Dover type and am aware they are still made it SA and have been since the works was set up over there by S&W a long time ago.  There stoves are not made from the original tolling and have been modified particularly in recent years so aren’t the same as the ‘original stoves’ so I considered them reproduction as they do not belong to the late 19th c or early 20th c.

 

The Epping history is murky but as I understand it it had very limited use on boats and was manufactured by the Broomside foundry at the behest of British Waterways during nationalisation.  BW did not want the repair costs of the traditional stoves so had a crude work a day stove made for their boats.  It works well but is the result of simplifying and cost cutting and therefore in my opinion does not belong to the boatmans tradition.  In the same way that their blue/yellow livery went against the traditions of canal decoration.

 

As for the original patterns this may be the case but I think it very unlikely.  I had been told they were cast from loose patterns that may even be original stove parts.

I would very much doubt the original patterns would have survived the closure of the foundries in the Falkirk area but I may be wrong there?

 

Re Nippers.  Yes I don’t doubt they would have been used but there were many more suitable stoves available that I believe would have been favoured.

 

All the fiddle rails I have seen on both original stoves and in museum collections have been fixed.  Usually to the studs that run through the traditional portable ranges and hold them together.  I am sure some fiddle rails were removable but I have not come across them so I can only speak from experience.

 

The fiddle rail we manufacture is of a design found on the original stove of the wooden motor boat Dane.  The stove was undoubtably original and was of a design specifically designed for boats having several very interesting features. I note the same fiddle rail design is in the museum in Stoke Bruerne.  
We made up proper green sand patterns and make these in solid brass machined to suit the specific type of rail required.  
 

Lastly I’ve not seen a great deal of Premiers (perhaps 5) but I’d have to disagree regarding any improvements.  On the contrary there are many elements introduced to the Premier that were not a feature of the Nipper that make them significantly floored.  Having not seen a wide enough sample I can’t say wether these were an issue for their full production run or were issues introduced by Midland Chandlers.  I’m not wishing to cause offence here I am only referring to my direct experience of having had to restore Premiers in the past that were often in worse nick than a Nipper of 70 years their senior 

 

 

 

[OllyOsborne]

On 08/06/2015 at 22:37, onionbargee said:

Sounds lethal ?

No not all.  All ranges work on this premise.  The rate of burn is consistent due to the design and can be dampened by both sending the heat around the oven or opening the flap on the smoke box to lessen the draw.  I doubt you’d ever get this issue with a stumpy little boat chimney unless you were in some pretty wild storms! 

[OllyOsborne]

On 08/06/2015 at 07:32, frangar said:

Wow. That might be just the chap I need to restore the range in my back cabin. Mines similar to a guidwife but made in Colchester & apparently from a Thames sailing barge. I know it won't be cheap but it's a lovely range!

 

Thanks very much for the link.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

 Hi Gareth, I’d be very interested to see your stove if you still have it?  I was contacted by a Thames sailing barge trust some time ago that was looking for an original stove fitted to the craft they were restoring that was allegedly made in Colchester!

No doubt badge engineered but interesting nonetheless 

[frangar]

37 minutes ago, OllyOsborne said:

 Hi Gareth, I’d be very interested to see your stove if you still have it?  I was contacted by a Thames sailing barge trust some time ago that was looking for an original stove fitted to the craft they were restoring that was allegedly made in Colchester!

No doubt badge engineered but interesting nonetheless 

Hi Olly

 

I did bring to stove down to you possibly not long after I posted here for you to look at and you kindly gave me a quote but while I was deliberating that I was given a Mid Chandlers range that just needed a smoke box..which you pointed me in the direction of someone that could supply! That's now installed and keeps the boat safety happier!

 

Ive still got the Range...badged as a "Castle" in my unit as I haven't had the heart to scrap it!...I think you said it was built in a glasgow foundry....the Colchester name on it seems to be a large  Ironmongers and general store that was in the town...found that out after a little research.....so I guess they just sold them.

 

I would be happy if if was to be fitted in a sailing barge..seems a .it does need a fair bit of work...as I recall you quoted about £1800 as it needs a few new castings. I can email you some pictures to give you an idea of the condition and if you were to restore it for the Sailing Barge trust they could have it for nothing...although a day on their boat would be cool!! Im based in the Midlands so preferably it would need collecting or I could drive down again at some point.

 

You might  not be able to use the DM system on here as you are new...you need a number of posts I think... so if you want to reply on the thread thats fine and I can email you...think I have your address somewhere. 

[BWM]

1 hour ago, OllyOsborne said:

 Hi Gareth, I’d be very interested to see your stove if you still have it?  I was contacted by a Thames sailing barge trust some time ago that was looking for an original stove fitted to the craft they were restoring that was allegedly made in Colchester!

No doubt badge engineered but interesting nonetheless 

I wondered if you could give me any information about on this stove? A little large for a narrow boat back cabin but still designed as a portable range. 

[OllyOsborne]

1 hour ago, BWM said:

I wondered if you could give me any information about on this stove? A little large for a narrow boat back cabin but still designed as a portable range. 

Whilst I’m not familiar with the specific model Im 99% sure this is manufactured by Donnie Forbes Ltd at their Larbert foundry. Looks to be 1930s and around 30” wide so yes a bit hefty for a back cabin but great in the main cabin if the boats been converted 

[BWM]

4 hours ago, OllyOsborne said:

Whilst I’m not familiar with the specific model Im 99% sure this is manufactured by Donnie Forbes Ltd at their Larbert foundry. Looks to be 1930s and around 30” wide so yes a bit hefty for a back cabin but great in the main cabin if the boats been converted 

Fantastic, thanks. Would that be the same company which made the Larbert fitted in some GU motor boats? 

 We do have it fitted in the main cabin as our boat has been partially converted, it's a great stove and the castings are incredibly thin when compared to the Epping in the back.

[roland elsdon]

Actually I think that  looks like a big  belle  portable. We had the same range but with the firebox on the right on Guccc Thaxted. I think made by Cakebread Robey.

Interesting range with the hinged damper on the front and inset lifting bars on the top.

Sadly with ours engaging portable mode to repair behind it lead to total disintegration.

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, roland elsdon said:

I think made by Cakebread Robey.

Cakebread Robey were builders merchants and retailers of all sorts of ironmongery. So I suspect your stove wasn't actually made by them but was 'badge engineered' as seems to have been the case with many of these stoves.

 

A Cakebread Robey branded Belle Portable (from https://harringayonline.com/forum/topics/cakebread-robey-of-wood-green-and-the-salisbury?groupUrl=historyofharringay)

Edited February 3, 2022 by David Mack

[OllyOsborne]

1 hour ago, BWM said:

Fantastic, thanks. Would that be the same company which made the Larbert fitted in some GU motor boats? 

 We do have it fitted in the main cabin as our boat has been partially converted, it's a great stove and the castings are incredibly thin when compared to the Epping in the back.

Yes that’s the same company.  The ‘Larbert’ portable range was their flag ship model.

 

yes the castings are very fine but of exceptional quality.  It took some serious knowledge to run iron thin like that whilst retaining strength and shape.

The Epping is of crude design and construction by comparison and has very chunky castings.  
people often assume a quality casting is a heavy one but it’s quite the opposite when it comes to stoves!

1 hour ago, roland elsdon said:

Actually I think that  looks like a big  belle  portable. We had the same range but with the firebox on the right on Guccc Thaxted. I think made by Cakebread Robey.

Interesting range with the hinged damper on the front and inset lifting bars on the top.

Sadly with ours engaging portable mode to repair behind it lead to total disintegration.

Belle Portable is a different type of range and manufacturer.

Sad to hear it’s been binned, everything is restorable 

38 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Cakebread Robey were builders merchants and retailers of all sorts of ironmongery. So I suspect your stove wasn't actually made by them but was 'badge engineered' as seems to have been the case with many of these stoves.

 

A Cakebread Robey branded Belle Portable (from https://harringayonline.com/forum/topics/cakebread-robey-of-wood-green-and-the-salisbury?groupUrl=historyofharringay)

Correct.  The deal was that if a merchant purchased X amount of stoves from the manufacturer then they had their own name/brand cast on the smoke box damper.

 

in this case the range is a Belle portable manufactured by Jones & Campbell at their Torwood foundry near Falkirk 

[OllyOsborne]

9 hours ago, frangar said:

Hi Olly

 

I did bring to stove down to you possibly not long after I posted here for you to look at and you kindly gave me a quote but while I was deliberating that I was given a Mid Chandlers range that just needed a smoke box..which you pointed me in the direction of someone that could supply! That's now installed and keeps the boat safety happier!

 

Ive still got the Range...badged as a "Castle" in my unit as I haven't had the heart to scrap it!...I think you said it was built in a glasgow foundry....the Colchester name on it seems to be a large  Ironmongers and general store that was in the town...found that out after a little research.....so I guess they just sold them.

 

I would be happy if if was to be fitted in a sailing barge..seems a .it does need a fair bit of work...as I recall you quoted about £1800 as it needs a few new castings. I can email you some pictures to give you an idea of the condition and if you were to restore it for the Sailing Barge trust they could have it for nothing...although a day on their boat would be cool!! Im based in the Midlands so preferably it would need collecting or I could drive down again at some point.

 

You might  not be able to use the DM system on here as you are new...you need a number of posts I think... so if you want to reply on the thread thats fine and I can email you...think I have your address somewhere. 

I remember now!  I see so many stoves I sometimes loose track!  Perhaps if you could pop me an email with a pic of the stove I can take another look!

[frangar]

Just now, OllyOsborne said:

I remember now!  I see so many stoves I sometimes loose track!  Perhaps if you could pop me an email with a pic of the stove I can take another look!

No worries....I'll sort some pics tomorrow and email them off and you can decide what you want to do....It does need a loving home!