Celotex Tuff-R Zero Multipurpose board

[Theo]

Just had a look at this stuff in Jewsons. It is covered each side with aluminium foil. The price that Jewsons are quoting for 1" thick is £13.40 for an 8' x 4' sheet compared with £5.99 for 1" thick polystyrene. The Celotex has a very fine foam structure rather than the bobbly structure of polystyrene.

 

Does anyone know anything about it?

 

Nick

[Roger Gunkel]

Sorry Theo, don't know anything about this particular material, but I would like to add a word of caution.

If you are using a non sprayed in insulation, it is absolutely vital to completely bond the insulation material to the hull or roof surface. If there are any any air gaps between the metal and the insulation, then there will be a build up of condensation from the warmer air inside the boat onto the metal surface. This will run down over time around the ceiling material and down the wall linings, leading to rust, rot, mildew and horrible smells. It can be extremely difficult to find the source of the moisture and highly frustrating.

There is one contributor to this forum at the moment who is in dispute with a builder over precisely this problem.

Roger

[aread2]

I concur with Roger on this. You need a good vapour barrier to prevent moisture getting through the insulation. Spray-on foam is it's own vapour barrier. Any sheet material will have many joins and each join must be taped to make a continuous vapour barrier and any edges will be a problem. As for Celotex, it's very good. Better that expanded polystyrene. Our house has four inches of celotex (1 inch + 3 inch board) underneath the tiles and this is equivalent to eight inches of rockwool. When it was installed all the joints had to be taped carefully. You also need to be careful about making dust when you cut it. The manufacturers recommend that you use a knife rather than a saw because of this.

[DHutch]

http://www.celotex.co.uk

 

Seams to be Polyurethene Foam

- Which is becoming excreasling used in building and in boats, and is what 'sprayfoam' is.

 

 

Daniel

[blackrose]

Sounds like this is another version of Kingspan. PU foam board is good stuff, in general better than expanded polystyrene. As has been said above, try bonding it to the steel with marineflex or another marine sealant/adhesive and also seal the gaps between boards. If you install this stuff properly there's no reason why it shouldn't give as good performance as sprayfoam.

[DHutch]

Yeah, theres nothing wrong with doing it with boards not sprayfoam, and EPU is much better than EPS in terms of working with it, fire retardacy, and compatability with PVC wires.

- What you do want though is to keep the damp air from geting to the steel.

- We have sheet damp-proof-membraine between our T&G and the EPS boards. Small rattlecans of EPU can be used to fill holes too.

 

 

 

Daniel

[Gary Peacock]

We used to use Kingspan from a insulation point of view it's OK but spray foam does offer other advantages that help to justify the increased costs.

[Theo]

Sorry folks, I didn't give you the full info.

 

The situation is thus: Above the gunwale all seems ok. Below the gunwale there is: Steel, then perhaps 1" Expanded polystyrene, then 3/4" ply. This as it stands feels cold so I thought that I would add extra: 24mm insulation board to be decided then T&G cladding.

 

Nick

[Pirate]

I think this stuff would be very good, as its quite thick, but get a builder who takes care and pride in his work to fit it correctly, or suffer the consequences

[blackrose]

Sorry folks, I didn't give you the full info.

 

The situation is thus: Above the gunwale all seems ok. Below the gunwale there is: Steel, then perhaps 1" Expanded polystyrene, then 3/4" ply. This as it stands feels cold so I thought that I would add extra: 24mm insulation board to be decided then T&G cladding.

 

Nick

 

I think that would be a good choice, leaving whats already there and adding PU insulation board on top. Even though heat rises I think below gunwhale height is very important because that part of the boat sits in the water. Although air temperatures are often lower than water temperatures in winter, there is much greater heat transfer to water. If your floor is cold you might want to think about some extra foam underlay.

Edited February 20, 2007 by blackrose

[aread2]

An object lesson in how not to insulate with PU board

NB Westwood Build (see the pictures near the end).

[Big Steve]

Celotex has double the insulation value of expanded polystyrene. http://www.secondsandco.co.uk/ do damaged sheets cheepish. Kingspan is the same material as Celotex

[Norman Bond]

An object lesson in how not to insulate with PU board

NB Westwood Build (see the pictures near the end).

 

 

Had a look at this link and it looks pretty damning of Maesbury. It also gave another link to the build of another one of their narrowboats, Tigeress, which said pretty much the same thing. And then I noticed something strange. Despite the fact that they were supposedly independent comments they both misspelled promised as "promiced". This makes me suspect that both blogs were written by the same person.

 

Anyone have any further information about either boat? Or anyone that has had a boat from Maesbury and have nothing but praise for the boat and the service they received?

 

A friend of mine is currently looking at second-hand boats and after reading this I would consider telling him to avoid anything that they had built.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

Norman

[alan_fincher]

Had a look at this link and it looks pretty damning of <***builders name****>. It also gave another link to the build of another one of their narrowboats, Tigeress, which said pretty much the same thing. And then I noticed something strange. Despite the fact that they were supposedly independent comments they both misspelled promised as "promiced". This makes me suspect that both blogs were written by the same person.

 

Anyone have any further information about either boat? Or anyone that has had a boat from <***builders name****> and have nothing but praise for the boat and the service they received?

 

A friend of mine is currently looking at second-hand boats and after reading this I would consider telling him to avoid anything that they had built.

Cheers

Norman

Norman,

 

They seem to be two different boats....

 

How do I know ? Well the bizarre thing is that despite the owners' views of the builder, the builder none-the-less seems very happy to display pictures and details of BOTH these boats on their web-site, as examples of their finished work.

 

I'll not name names, nor add links, in the circumstances, but the Westwood link itself provides a subsequent link to the builders site, where you can find that other boat pictured too.

 

An apparently disturbing story, which I'm sure will be followed with great interest.

 

Alan

[Gary Peacock]

Building websites is easy building boats and staying business is more difficult.

 

See

 

www.anthony-m.com

 

www.heronboatbuilders.co.uk

 

[Tommo]

An object lesson in how not to insulate with PU board

NB Westwood Build (see the pictures near the end).

 

When you look at that mess it makes you wonder why some builders try and save a few quid on the insulation, must be the best advert for using spray foam I’ve ever seen.

 

Ian

[blackrose]

Celotex has double the insulation value of expanded polystyrene.

 

In general PU foam does have better insulation values (i.e. lower thermal conductivity) than EPS. I don't have the figures with me but I've been compiling polymer foam properties for a project I'm working on, and for an equivalent thickness of material it's not double. If PU board manufacturers have achieved half the thermal conductivity of EPS they are comparing different densities.

Edited February 26, 2007 by blackrose

[Norman Bond]

Hi Alan,

 

Yes, I noticed both boats were on the web site, but that just makes it easier. It would be possible for someone with a grudge to choose a boat from the site and start another blog pretending to be them; which is why I found the misspelling so suspicious. If enough people see these blogs it could drive a builder into bankruptcy and it may or may not be deserved. That's why I was asking whether anyone knew the 2 boats in question - to find out if both blogs were genuine.

 

 

 

Norman

[alan_fincher]

Hi Alan,

 

Yes, I noticed both boats were on the web site, but that just makes it easier. It would be possible for someone with a grudge to choose a boat from the site and start another blog pretending to be them; which is why I found the misspelling so suspicious. If enough people see these blogs it could drive a builder into bankruptcy and it may or may not be deserved. That's why I was asking whether anyone knew the 2 boats in question - to find out if both blogs were genuine.

Norman

Fair enough Norman,

 

Although, as Westwood's owner says he intends to make a legal fight of this, and pursue compensation, I find it rather hard to see what he would achieve by trying to force the firm involved into bankruptcy.

 

If he is to get any redress, then I'd have thought he would want the firm to remain trading, with money available.

 

Best wishes,

 

Alan

[Pirate]

Fair enough Norman,

 

Although, as Westwood's owner says he intends to make a legal fight of this, and pursue compensation, I find it rather hard to see what he would achieve by trying to force the firm involved into bankruptcy.

If he is to get any redress, then I'd have thought he would want the firm to remain trading, with money available.

 

Best wishes,

 

Alan

 

Perhaps it`s simply to help other would be purchasers avoid the same heartache he and his wife have been through, sinking all their hard earned cash into it? and as he may be the sole creditor, even on Bankruptcy his money could be secure....I`m sure he has very good lawyers

Edited February 27, 2007 by Pirate

[Norman Bond]

he intends to make a legal fight of this, and pursue compensation

 

That's the problem Alan. How do you know he is telling the truth? It doesn't help that the picture at the top of the page that he claims to be himself is actually Pierce Brosnan. ( And Pierce, if you really are the owner, I apologise ).

 

The trouble with the net is that while it allows a free flow of information how can you check that that information is correct? For instance, the second boat is named as Tigeress in its blog and Tigeress on the builder's listing page. But if you click through to the page on which the boat is featured it is spelled as Tigress. I tried reading the name off the side of the boat in the photo and it looks like 7 letters so the later would be more correct and the writer of the blog didn't even know the name of their own boat. But the photo isn't too clear so I could be wrong and the second letter in the name doesn't look like an i to me anyway. Must get some stronger glasses!

 

Then the builders claim to carry out most of the steel fabrication work themselves and incorporate "unique" design features, when in fact they seem to fit out Tim Tyler shells.

 

But this is getting too far away from the original topic. Maybe we should have a new thread comparing claims on web sites to reality as we know it? I was reading one the other day that claimed they had over 20 years boat building experience at their location. That may be true - but their boats are now built and fitted in Poland!!!

 

 

Norman

[alan_fincher]

Perhaps it`s simply to help other would be purchasers avoid the same heartache he and his wife have been through, sinking all their hard earned cash into it? and as he may be the sole creditor, even on Bankruptcy his money could be secure....I`m sure he has very good lawyers

Pirate,

 

I was saddened to see your blog, believe me.

 

I sincerely hope that you are able to pursue this to a much better outcome, and I'm sure just about every other forum member must feel the same.

 

That's the problem Alan. How do you know he is telling the truth?

I'm sorry, but whilst I'm sure that the builder probably no doubt takes a very different view to the owner, having looked at the Westwood web-site, I find it very hard not to imagine that there are very serious problems with this boat.

 

It would take a great deal of effort to fake many of those photos shown, (and why would you want to, anyway?). They alone seem to me to say a great deal. Even if you were to ignore every word of the supporting text, it is hard to ignore what's depicted in the photos. I don't think it is helpful for an outsider to speculate how it has become the way it is shown, (particularly in a boat that is quite so new), but I personally don't doubt the damage is real.

 

The 'Tigeress' web-site on the other hand shows no supporting evidence of defects, I think, and therefore I would not be prepared to form any view about that boat, without knowing more.

 

I'm not actually sure we are too far off the original topic, which was about the use of these types of insulation materials. I think the discussion about this boat would be of interest to anyone considering the use of such a product, wouldn't it ?

 

Alan

[anhar]

I'm with Alan on this. The Westwood site appears very true to me. I can't believe that it is made up.

 

I think people who are prepared to reveal their poor experiences with named boat builders in this way on their websites are doing us all a great service, in particular of course those looking for a new boat build or even possibly a s/h boat from such rogue firms. Especially as there are legal problems preventing such features being written up on this forum.

 

Who would buy a boat from Maesbury and other firms that people suffering appalling experiences have been obliging enough to name and describe in detail, after reading such stories?

 

There but for the grace of god...

 

regards

Steve

Edited February 28, 2007 by anhar

[Gary Peacock]

I think it is about time we started a new thread on the issues raised here I will do the honours but obviously I have to play the devils advocate the last time I got involved I was warned off by the owner of Lees Narrowboats!

 

Oh I could have much more fun if I was anonymous!

[tomsk]

I think it is about time we started a new thread on the issues raised here I will do the honours but obviously I have to play the devils advocate the last time I got involved I was warned off by the owner of Lees Narrowboats!

 

Oh I could have much more fun if I was anonymous!

 

This would appear to be one of the few times where a 'zombie alias' account would be acceptable, only Jon and the mods would know who the owner of such an account is through their IP address, see also Nobber.... Go On Gary... DO IT!!!!