Brentford river section

[Captain Zim]

Hello. Can anyone tell me if it's possible to come through the Thames lock on to the tidal section without a CRT licence? For example if you wanted to wait somewhere safe for the tide to turn? Thanks.

[blackrose]

I think it might depend on the discretion of the lockkeeper on duty at the time. If you can convince him or her that you just want to wait for the tide and turn around then they might be amenable.

 

Are you coming up from Limehouse or down from Teddington?

 

I sometimes used to go up to Teddington (from Brentford) with friends on the flood tide and tie up to some pilings on the right below the weir because I didn't have an EA licence. We'd have a couple of pints at the Tide End Cottage and then turn around and go back to Brentford on the ebb. You've just got to make sure your ropes are loose - also there's a woman from the nearby flats that will come out and say you can't moor there. Just tell here you'll only be there for an hour and she'll go back indoors. The Anglers in Teddington has a jetty but there's usually someone who's tied a dingy to it so it's seldom possible for a big boat to use it.

 

I've beached my boat at Isleworth a couple of times but I wouldn't necessarily recommend doing that because you'd need to get there early enough before it dries out and by the time you get lifted off the bottom you're well into the flood tide. You need to register with the PLA to use it. There's also a private jetty outside Brentford Dock just upstream of the lock cut. I'm not saying you should use it, but in an emergency I would.

Edited March 7, 2015 by blackrose

[David Mack]

I sometimes used to go up to Teddington (from Brentford) with friends on the flood tide and tie up to some pilings on the right below the weir because I didn't have an EA licence.

The actual PLA/EA boundary is some distance below Teddington Lock, so technically you probably did need a EA licence.

[Captain Zim]

To enter you need insurance and boat safety cert both of which I have. I have no plan to go beyond the tidal bit. The leaflet says you must purchase a short term licence but presumably this is from the office at the basin rather than the lock keeper? I thought there was no licence requirement on this short stretch?

Edited March 7, 2015 by Captain Zim

[blackrose]

The actual PLA/EA boundary is some distance below Teddington Lock, so technically you probably did need a EA licence.

 

Where does EA jurisdiction start then and how is one supposed to know if you're on EA waters? There are no notices. Do the boats moored on the long jetties below the weir have EA licences?

 

Since you're only checked for an EA licence when you pass through the lock I think it's fair to assume that's technically the point at which you need one. In fact, after a night trip up the tideway from Limehouse I once went through the lock and stayed for the night with the permission of the Teddington lockkeeper, turned around and went back to Brentford the next morning - all without an EA licence.

To enter you need insurance and boat safety cert both of which I have. I have no plan to go beyond the tidal bit. The leaflet says you must purchase a short term licence but presumably this is from the office at the basin rather than the lock keeper? I thought there was no licence requirement on this short stretch?

 

I'm sure if you call the Brentford lockkeeper and explain that you just want to come through the lock and moor on the semi-tidal stretch for an hour or two they'll at least consider your request. If you moor on the left immediately after the lock (without blocking access) then your boat will be in view of the lockkeepers while they're on duty.

Edited March 7, 2015 by blackrose

[NigelMoore]

Hello. Can anyone tell me if it's possible to come through the Thames lock on to the tidal section without a CRT licence? For example if you wanted to wait somewhere safe for the tide to turn? Thanks.

 

Just how often do I have to belabour this point Captain Zim !?

 

The answer is YES.

 

But to cover yourself, first print out a copy of the relevant High Court Order that CaRT unfortunately [?] removed from their website, and highlight:

 

“ IT IS ORDERED: 1. That it be and is hereby declared that no licence is required for a vessel bona fide used for navigation exclusively on tidal stretches of the Grand Union Canal which have not been designated as river waterways specified in or further to the British Waterways Act 1971.”

 

https://www.scribd.com/doc/257957688/Hildyard-Order-16-Feb-12

 

For good measure, print out a copy of this page from the nineties BW Patrol Reports, classifying the tidal stretch above Thames Locks as a Safe Haven. It mentions one unlicensed boat: cabin cruiser ‘Dorusen’ “Craft given Haven. Issues due to engine failure”.

 

https://www.scribd.com/doc/257959805/Brent-Patrol-Notice-Jan-1999

 

Having armed yourself with those, let them know beforehand of your intentions, just to avoid inevitable confrontation with the ignorant [probably volunteer] lock-keepers acting on instructions and not knowing any better.

 

If you really wanted to avoid any potential obstruction, not having any taste for creating a fuss with arrests and calling in the River Police, then notify Sam Thomas &/or Jon Guest of your intentions.

 

A perhaps more satisfactory alternative would be to pay for a short term licence under protest, and inform them that you would be suing them for criminal extraction of money under false pretences, in violation of a High Court Order.

 

A further alternative [not the answer to your question of course] would be to pay anyway and congratulate yourself on contributing to CaRT coffers voluntarily.

 

Regardless of how you play it, the legal situation is perfectly clear that you are entitled to do exactly as you describe.

[Captain Zim]

To be honest, Mr Moore, I was hoping you'd oblige. Thanks!

[NigelMoore]

You’re welcome Captain Zim.

 

If you do use the Order, perhaps it would be as well to remind CaRT officialdom of just how much they professed to welcome that Order, in BW’s Press Release of March 2012!

 

“British Waterways welcomes the Judgment of The Honourable Mr Justice Hildyard in the High Court of Justice on 16 February 2012 . . .”

 

One can find that much from the header in the waterwayswatch.org site – but the permanent link to BW’s full effusion in the Statement appears to be broken somehow.

 

http://waterwaywatch.org/author/qbuster/page/12/?action=lostpassword&instance=tml-1

 

You might also find it handy to remind Jon Guest, if you contact him, of his own published contribution following the later Appeal Court judgment –

 

“This case relates to a tidal stretch of the Grand Union Canal in Brentford and, as a result of this Judgment, we will need to look at how we treat this stretch differently.”

 

https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/2729.docx

 

He might need that reminder, because he has personally refused entry to someone else I know of [and reported here]. It could be useful to go so far as to quote para.66 of the judgment over Hedsor Water, where it is confirmed that obstruction of a public right of navigation is a criminal offence: -

 

“Turning to section 5 of the 1885 Act and its successor statutory provisions, they are not to be construed as conferring upon the Claimant a licence to replace any obstruction to PRN removed by the Defendant. Section 5 and (even more clearly its successor statutory provision which are the currently applicable) merely afford a defence to the criminal offence created by the same section. Most particularly when read in the context of the legislation as a whole and the range of remedies afforded by the common law and the legislation for removal of obstructions created by a riparian owner, the section cannot preclude recourse to other remedies for their removal or confer immunity on the Claimant from civil suit or exercise of the right of abatement in case she creates any, or any such, obstruction to PRN.”

 

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Ch/2002/2785.html

 

If they are paying back tens of thousands of pounds to the boaters long-term moored here, for the past illegally extorted annual licences, why would they believe they can extort short-term licences? I don't believe for a minute that they do; as per usual, they do these things regardless.

[Giant]

On a related point, can anyone confirm the actual dimensions of Thames Lock? I was walking around the area the other day and it looked to me like it might be a bit wider than 14ft - but I didn't have a tape measure and the keeper wasn't on duty. Would be interesting to know if some craft too big for the Grand Union could still use that stretch as a safe haven if needed.

[Willber G]

On a related point, can anyone confirm the actual dimensions of Thames Lock? I was walking around the area the other day and it looked to me like it might be a bit wider than 14ft - but I didn't have a tape measure and the keeper wasn't on duty. Would be interesting to know if some craft too big for the Grand Union could still use that stretch as a safe haven if needed.

On Google maps it looks about 25ft.

[Captain Zim]

Thanks again. How about Limehouse?

[Willber G]

Looks bigger, and the name Limehouse Ship Lock is probably a clue.

[GUMPY]

Looks bigger, and the name Limehouse Ship Lock is probably a clue.

Except its now much smaller than the ship lock that was there......

[Willber G]

Except its now much smaller than the ship lock that was there......

Ah... Still looks about 28ft, though.

[Captain Zim]

Sorry, I meant is it possible to lock through without a licence?

[NigelMoore]

Sorry, I meant is it possible to lock through [Limehouse Lock] without a licence?

 

Sadly not. Whereas the tidal river Brent portion of the southernmost Grand Union Canal was not included in the scheduled rivers of the 1971 [as amended] Act, that Act specifically included “The River Lee Navigation from Hertford to the river Thames at Limehouse” as a scheduled river, using the main navigable channel of which required either a river registration Certificate issued under the authority of the 1971 Act, else a general all-waterways boat Licence issued under the authority of the 1976 Byelaws.

[NigelMoore]

Would be interesting to know if some craft too big for the Grand Union could still use that stretch as a safe haven if needed.

 

They could.

 

I cannot dig up the dimensions just now, but both the Thames Locks and the Gauging Locks were built far in excess of the standard Grand Union locks further up. Brentford was a major trans-shipment point dealing with transfer from Thames barges to the warehouses, thence to narrowboats and GU barges in the 'Pool'. Large Thames sailing barges would moor up on the semi-tidal stretch, which was the physical limit of their travel due to the bridges.

 

This is from the pre 1950's, immediately downstream of my own moorings under the [replacement] bridge.

 

[Scholar Gypsy]

Ah... Still looks about 28ft, though.

 

Limehouse is about 24 feet wide. Three and a bit narrowboats, definitely not four...

[Guest User]

 

Where does EA jurisdiction start then and how is one supposed to know if you're on EA waters? There are no notices. Do the boats moored on the long jetties below the weir have EA licences?

 

 

About 210 metres downstream of Teddington - there's an obelisk that marks the EA/PLA boundary ...

 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Obelisk_near_Teddington_Lock_-_geograph.org.uk_-_969542.jpg

 

[Willber G]

Limehouse is about 24 feet wide. Three and a bit narrowboats, definitely not four...

OK, thanks.

[blackrose]

 

About 210 metres downstream of Teddington - there's an obelisk that marks the EA/PLA boundary ...

 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Obelisk_near_Teddington_Lock_-_geograph.org.uk_-_969542.jpg

 

Interesting, thanks. But I still don't think you need an EA licence until you go above Teddington lock.

[Captain Zim]

Mr Moore, I hope you don't mind, but I have sent you a PM on this matter

[blackrose]

Would be interesting to know if some craft too big for the Grand Union could still use that stretch as a safe haven if needed.

I think boats that are too long for Thames lock can still get through, they open both sets of gates when the tide is right. I was told that big brown barge on the right upstream from the lock has to do this if it's taken onto the Thames.

[NigelMoore]

I think boats that are too long for Thames lock can still get through, they open both sets of gates when the tide is right. I was told that big brown barge on the right upstream from the lock has to do this if it's taken onto the Thames.

 

You are talking of “Courage”. It goes out and back about once a year, and takes hours to traverse the Locks.

 

It cannot go straight through with both gates open, because at that tide level it is too high to fit under the bridge over the tail of the locks. It has to go through as far as it can before closing the upper gates behind it, then sit there and wait until the tide lowers sufficiently to allow it to continue under the bridge.

 

Returning, it has to do this in reverse [i.e. stern upstream, backing into the lock from the Thames at low tide].

 

Dr Bowden [the owner] is one of the boaters who have decided to ask for their money back for the past licence fees paid. She could never proceed past Augustus Close bridge, let alone get under the High Street bridge around the corner to reach the Gauging Locks. With a boat that size, that will have made a significant dent in CaRT's coffers.

Edited March 8, 2015 by NigelMoore

[blackrose]

 

You are talking of “Courage”. It goes out about and back about once a year, and takes hours to traverse the Locks.

 

It cannot go straight through with both gates open, because at that tide level it is too high to fit under the bridge over the tail of the locks.

 

Yes, that's the one. I didn't think about the air draught, but doesn't it depend on the height of the tide as to whether it gets under the bridge?