Front well drainage - typically how does this work?

[blackrose]

Where rough water's concerned, if there is any danger of waves breaking over the bow that's no place for any conventional narrowboat to be whatever front drainage arrangements it might have.

 

I disagree. If my memory serves me right, Recreational Craft Directive boats built to Cat. D (which includes many conventional narrowboats) are designed for wave heights of 0.5m with occasional wave heights of 1m. Waves of that height can easily break over the bow depending on how they hit the boat.

 

Plenty of conventional narrowboats make the trip up and down the tidal Thames for example, where waves often break over the bow, but few have problems as long as they are adequately prepared.

 

Often it's the owners of narrowboats who have a problem with waves, not the boats themselves.

 

Having said that, this looks like it's taking things to extremes!

Edited January 30, 2015 by blackrose

[SamKingfisher]

I had waves breaking over the bow on the tidal treat. This was

 

Not a problem

 

Great fun

[NickF]

I had waves breaking over the bow on the tidal treat. This was

 

Not a problem

 

Great fun

Every tidal river is a treat but which one were you on!?

[Neil2]

 

I disagree. If my memory serves me right, Recreational Craft Directive boats built to Cat. D (which includes many conventional narrowboats) are designed for wave heights of 0.5m with occasional wave heights of 1m. Waves of that height can easily break over the bow depending on how they hit the boat.

 

Plenty of conventional narrowboats make the trip up and down the tidal Thames for example, where waves often break over the bow, but few have problems as long as they are adequately prepared.

 

Often it's the owners of narrowboats who have a problem with waves, not the boats themselves.

 

Having said that, this looks like it's taking things to extremes!

 

The figures for cat D are actually 0.3m and 0.5m respectively.

 

I take your point about the suitability of the boat vs the ability of the crew, but a competent skipper wouldn't be taking a narrowboat out in the sort of conditions the Thames can create, he/she would be aware of the boats limitations.

 

No doubt this is what led to the ban on hired narrowboats. After one too many incidents the authorities doubtless realised that hirers being time restricted are more likely to take risks.

 

BTW any idea where that picture was taken?

[blackrose]

 

The figures for cat D are actually 0.3m and 0.5m respectively.

 

I take your point about the suitability of the boat vs the ability of the crew, but a competent skipper wouldn't be taking a narrowboat out in the sort of conditions the Thames can create, he/she would be aware of the boats limitations.

 

No doubt this is what led to the ban on hired narrowboats. After one too many incidents the authorities doubtless realised that hirers being time restricted are more likely to take risks.

 

BTW any idea where that picture was taken?

 

I think that picture is Narrow Dog (Phillis May) - I just found it on the web. No idea where it was taken. Could it be approaching Calais?

 

I consider myself a competent skipper and I've been out on the tidal Thames with waves breaking over the bow. They were probably between half and one metre high. The boat was fine - no problems at all.

Edited January 30, 2015 by blackrose

[Neil2]

 

I think that picture is Narrow Dog (Phillis May) - I just found it on the web. No idea where it was taken. Could it be approaching Calais?

 

I consider myself a competent skipper and I've been out on the tidal Thames with waves breaking over the bow. They were probably between half and one metre high. The boat was fine - no problems at all.

 

What threw me was the ensign but looking closer it could well be the Welsh flag.

 

I think you're right, it has to be the Darlingtons look where she's standing...

[Keeping Up]

When we hit rough weather on the Severn Estuary, the problem wasn't so much the waves over the bow (of which there were plenty) as the fact that the propeller and rudder spent more time in the air than in the water.

[Loafer]

There's another aspect to this, having a deep front well means that if it's a trad (ie the bow is likely to be the main access) it can be quite a climb to get in/out. We once hired a boat that had a deep well deck and I remember thinking what a pain it would be having to use it on a regular basis. That boat actually had three steps so quite a bit of deck space was taken up as well.

 

Where rough water's concerned, if there is any danger of waves breaking over the bow that's no place for any conventional narrowboat to be whatever front drainage arrangements it might have.

 

It can happen. Narrowboats are RCD category 'D', which allows for 0.3m, with occasional 0.5m waves, of which the latter can break over the bow of most narrowboats especially if approaching a bit from the beam.

 

No?

Edited January 30, 2015 by Loafer

[Neil2]

There's an interesting discussion regarding narrowboats in these conditions on the Tuesday Night Club website.

 

The problem with narrowboats in lumpy water is that they don't ride the waves, they plough through them. This is why the TNC concluded a cruiser stern boat unless heavily modified, is an unsuitable design in such conditions. If waves are breaking over the bow they can break over the stern as well.

 

Water hitting a narrowboat in this fashion raises a load of issues which may or may not cause problems for the boat, but my view is more often than not the average narrowboat just shouldn't be in this situation.

[blackrose]

There's an interesting discussion regarding narrowboats in these conditions on the Tuesday Night Club website.

 

The problem with narrowboats in lumpy water is that they don't ride the waves, they plough through them. This is why the TNC concluded a cruiser stern boat unless heavily modified, is an unsuitable design in such conditions. If waves are breaking over the bow they can break over the stern as well.

 

Water hitting a narrowboat in this fashion raises a load of issues which may or may not cause problems for the boat, but my view is more often than not the average narrowboat just shouldn't be in this situation.

 

Any displacement hull will ride and plough through waves - it depends on how the waves hit the boat. My boat rides waves quite well.

 

Anyway, I agree that the average narrowboater shouldn't be on lumpy water, but the average properly prepared narrowboat can actually cope quite well. If a wave breaks over the bow then it doesn't usually break over the stern - I've never had a wave break over the stern, but even if it does I don't really see the problem even on a cruiser stern with a decent amount of freeboard. You might get half a bucketful of water through the air vents in the side of the hull but that's the same for a trad stern too and that's what your bilge pump is for.

 

There are plenty of members of this forum with a lot of experience on tidal rivers and rough conditions. As one of them with first hand experience I will stick with what I know rather than taking lessons from those who haven't done it. Nobody is forcing anyone to take their boat from the safety of the canals onto tidal rivers, but many of us will continue to enjoy it. The Tuesday Night Club go out onto the tidal Thames every year, but the problem is that one or two who I've met have open hulled working boats and you certainly don't want too many waves breaking over the bow on one of those.

Edited January 31, 2015 by blackrose

[Neil2]

 

Any displacement hull will ride and plough through waves - it depends on how the waves hit the boat. My boat rides waves quite well.

 

Anyway, I agree that the average narrowboater shouldn't be on lumpy water, but the average properly prepared narrowboat can actually cope quite well. If a wave breaks over the bow then it doesn't usually break over the stern - I've never had a wave break over the stern, but even if it does I don't really see the problem even on a cruiser stern with a decent amount of freeboard. You might get half a bucketful of water through the air vents in the side of the hull but that's the same for a trad stern too and that's what your bilge pump is for.

 

There are plenty of members of this forum with a lot of experience on tidal rivers and rough conditions. As one of them with first hand experience I will stick with what I know rather than taking lessons from those who haven't done it. Nobody is forcing anyone to take their boat from the safety of the canals onto tidal rivers, but many of us will continue to enjoy it. The Tuesday Night Club go out onto the tidal Thames every year, but the problem is that one or two who I've met have open hulled working boats and you certainly don't want too many waves breaking over the bow on one of those.

 

Can you explain what you mean by that statement?

 

In the context of this thread it doesn't make much sense.

[blackrose]

 

Can you explain what you mean by that statement?

 

In the context of this thread it doesn't make much sense.

 

It means exactly what it says and makes perfect sense in any context. People with first hand experience tend to have more practical knowledge and a better understanding of a subject than others who make statements based only on what they've heard or read.

 

I'm not pointing the finger at you as I don't know which camp you fall into on this subject, but if the cap fits...

Edited January 31, 2015 by blackrose

[Neil2]

 

It means exactly what it says and makes perfect sense in any context. People with first hand experience tend to have more practical knowledge and a better understanding of a subject than others who make statements based only on what they've heard or read.

 

I'm not pointing the finger at you as I don't know which camp you fall into on this subject, but if the cap fits...

 

I don't doubt the validity of the statement it just seemed a strange thing to say.

[blackrose]

 

I don't doubt the validity of the statement it just seemed a strange thing to say.

 

Ok, but in the context of speaking from a position of first-hand experience, it doesn't seem that strange to me.

[ptolemy lane]

http://www.pb-narrowboats.co.uk/ from what I can remember the early ownerships shells where floating homes.

[SamKingfisher]

Every tidal river is a treat but which one were you on!?

The rivver trent treat. Autocorrect I love you.

 

Oh and I'd only had the boat 2 weeks at that point, though I had sailed small dinghies at sea.

[Wombat]

Finally can confirm that our NB has what I call a 'spine drain'. ie. a drain outlet in the rear centre of the well deck connecting to the engine bay bilge through a steel rectangular hollow section (similar to what I used to specify for wind restraint posts in low rise office block cavity wall construction) tube, which may or may not have a welded joint in it along its length which is tack welded to the baseplate. Needless to say our surveyor has flagged this up as poor design and is going to recommend either crutch and cover or an expensive modification to raise the well deck to a self draining level (with all the modifications to front doors etc that that would entail). Interestingly our surveyor is not making these measures mandatory as part of his survey report but writing to us separately with a covering letter, pointing out that having had these recommendations made by a surveyor we would invalidate our insurance if the boat sank due being inundated with water from tidal waters or from short lock gates. Knowing that this would effectively stop us from navigating two key northern canals (the Leeds & Liverpool and the Lancaster) and a few others, it is clear that the owner's group in this case has some decisions to make. My vote is to stick to basic good practice and get that well deck lifted.

[Cheshire cat]

Interestingly some of the earlier Pat Buckle ex Ownerships boats do have a raised front deck with holes for drainage over the side.

 

The modifications you are proposing will not be cheap. The existing doors are full width, double glazed units of a bespoke shape. Raising the deck by the necessary amount will mean new doors and also new lockers too. New steps will be required to provide a step up to the foredeck. I think this will also mean there is no longer enough room to deploy the Wilson chair beds unless the steps are not permanently fixed.

 

The cheaper solution of a cratch may well be more palatable to your fellow owners.

[David Mack]

Finally can confirm that our NB has what I call a 'spine drain'. ie. a drain outlet in the rear centre of the well deck connecting to the engine bay bilge through a steel rectangular hollow section (similar to what I used to specify for wind restraint posts in low rise office block cavity wall construction) tube, which may or may not have a welded joint in it along its length which is tack welded to the baseplate. Needless to say our surveyor has flagged this up as poor design and is going to recommend either crutch and cover or an expensive modification to raise the well deck to a self draining level (with all the modifications to front doors etc that that would entail). Interestingly our surveyor is not making these measures mandatory as part of his survey report but writing to us separately with a covering letter, pointing out that having had these recommendations made by a surveyor we would invalidate our insurance if the boat sank due being inundated with water from tidal waters or from short lock gates. Knowing that this would effectively stop us from navigating two key northern canals (the Leeds & Liverpool and the Lancaster) and a few others, it is clear that the owner's group in this case has some decisions to make. My vote is to stick to basic good practice and get that well deck lifted.

I don't like the sound of a surveyor who keeps his recommendation out of the survey report (so the insurers won't see it) but then says not acting on it will invalidate your insurance. He should either make the recommendation clear to all, or else confirm that it is only advice, and will have no impact on your insurance.

 

Have you thought about getting a second opinion?

[Neil2]

I wouldn't raise the well deck either. If the boat was built with a deep front well why not make the most of it by fitting a really good cratch cover that will not only solve the drainage issue but will extend the internal space of the boat.

 

And, as Cheshire Cat says it will be the cheaper option, and probably more likely to be universally acceptable in a shared ownership arrangement.

 

The only argument against it would be if the boat is a trad ie the main access is from the bow, but the boat is a semi trad isn't it?

[SamKingfisher]

Cratch cover. You're not off to Holland in it!

 

Boats with small or blocked cockpit drains are no better off than you.

 

I took a grinder to mine!

 

Well deck not cockpit. Brain error

[Neil2]

Cratch cover. You're not off to Holland in it!

 

Boats with small or blocked cockpit drains are no better off than you.

 

I took a grinder to mine!

 

Well deck not cockpit. Brain error

It's also worth bearing in mind that if you have a cruiser or semi trad you have the same issue at the back end. Some cruisers are quite efficient at draining some are awful but only an extreme optimist would have a cruiser without a bilge pump in the engine compartment.

[Wombat]

I don't like the sound of a surveyor who keeps his recommendation out of the survey report (so the insurers won't see it) but then says not acting on it will invalidate your insurance. He should either make the recommendation clear to all, or else confirm that it is only advice, and will have no impact on your insurance.

Have you thought about getting a second opinion?

hmmm - I've been puzzled by that as well; does seem odd. Not seen the official paper report yet so I reserve judgement until we get it.

[Wombat]

The owners don't want to do either option really but I am sort of hoping that cratch and cover will win out the day.

 

Once again, thanks to all contributors to this thread

[Neil Smith]

What option do they want, as the only other one is take up all the floor cut out the old drain tube and replace, that will cost thousands I would think.

 

Neil