Preventing damage to alternator if ignition on without engine running..phew!

[Markinaboat]

Hi folks,

 

Apologies for the lengthy title!

 

Have now got the cooling system on the K3 in our new (used) boat working satisfactorily.

 

Next up is the ignition system. The previous owners told us to be careful not to leave the ignition on for more than 90 secs as that is when the Alpha Pro kicks in. In fact, they were going to install an alarm/red light system for such occasions. as a long time boater/liveaboard, I doubt I would do that, however, what if the engine stalls when I'm at a lock or bantering away from the boat?

 

Does anyone have any ideas/knowledge whereby a box of tricks could be installed that could sense the engine has stopped, or perhaps more importantly, that the charge has stopped and then switch off the ignition/disconnect the output supply from the Alpha Pro?

 

Thanks

 

Mark

[zenataomm]

Not knowing what an Alpha Pro is I looked it up on Giggle, to discover Korean Trainers, hence my initial thought of go for the velcro ones.

Then I saw you comment about installing a box of tricks.

 

So it now sounds to me that you want to buy a box of tricks to govern another box of tricks that fools your alternator into doing what it does .... only differently?

 

I'm getting too old for this, I still don't understand why boaters need anything more than 18hp to move 20 tons let alone why they throw away half of their battery's charge starting when a flick of the handle uses none.

 

However we are where we are.

I imagine you have an alternator fooling gizmo that you have heard could fry it should it not be turning.

I don't know how it does what it does but by my understanding if your engine stops then the alternator stops. So with the rotor stationary all that's happening is the stator is sitting there in an excited state and getting warm.

 

What could be the harm in that apart from wasting leccy?

 

If this Alpha Pro does something potentially harmful to an excited yet stationary alternator then I'd chuck it away toot sweet ... as I can think of other ways it could ruin your day.

 

How about a snapped or slipping belt?

 

 

edited once upon a times 'cos I lost my concentration after answering the door for two polite, neat people who had decided the only thing lacking in my life was them pointing out to me they were aware many people these days are questioning what individuals can do to assist those lost along the way. I asked them what an Alpha Plus was, but they just smiled and walked away backwards.

Edited December 21, 2014 by zenataomm

[John V]

Not knowing what an Alpha Pro is I looked it up on Giggle, to discover Korean Trainers, hence my initial thought of go for the velcro ones.

Then I saw you comment about installing a box of tricks.

 

<double snip>

 

edited once upon a times 'cos I lost my concentration after answering the door for two polite, neat people who had decided the only thing lacking in my life was them pointing out to me they were aware many people these days are questioning what individuals can do to assist those lost along the way. I asked them what an Alpha Plus was, but they just smiled and walked away backwards.

 

 

[by'eck]

The Alpha Pro appears to be a Mastervolt offering. From what I can see it piggy backs an alternators internal regulator to provide user selectable multi-stage charge regulation, much as the Sterling and Adverc devices. A DAR in other words.

 

I doubt if any great harm will come from leaving the ignition switch on accidentally, other than flattening battery of course. I admit to doing this accidentally myself for an hour or so without issue to either DAR controlled alternator.

[Markinaboat]

Thanks for the replies...

 

Indeed, an 'Alpha Pro' is Mastervolts offering of an Adverc, Stirling etc. It phases the amount of amps as well as monitoring the temperature of the batteries via sensors to ensure that batteries are fully charged and not just partially as in a car etc.

 

It's a complex but professional system with a 160ah Leece Neville alternator that charges the domestic bank (4 x 200ah gels) at 12v and the starters (2 x 110ah traction) at 24v via a Mastervolt DC-DC converter.

 

The previous owner as mentioned had to replace the alternator when the ignition had been left on beyond it's 'beep' beep' which occurs at 90-120 secs. SO I thought one of our electrical geniuses may have a solution which would in essence, switch the power off to the ignition. Very occasionally, the 1.7 ton Kelvin K3 stalls if the revs are reduced to a minimum in a hurry when in one of those 'oh shit' situations and to get down to the engine room in a hurry (or remembering to in such a situation) is not always practical.

[RLWP]

Fit a starter button up by the helm

 

Richard

[Markinaboat]

I did consider running cables to isolate the ignition switch but feel that the run may be too long for an ignition circuit. Again, this would only help when on the boat.

[RLWP]

I was thinking of this bit:

 

 

 

Very occasionally, the 1.7 ton Kelvin K3 stalls if the revs are reduced to a minimum in a hurry when in one of those 'oh shit' situations and to get down to the engine room in a hurry (or remembering to in such a situation) is not always practical.

 

If you fit a remote starter button, you wouldn't have to rush through the boat

 

Richard

[Markinaboat]

The engine start/restart procedure involves having to be in the engine room, it's 60yrs old!

 

If you mean just an ignition (isoaltor) switch, then yes but as mentioned, the cable length could be an issue unless of a ridiculous size. Not yet sure if high amperage is involved in the ignition isolation.

[RLWP]

No starter motor then?

 

The K3 I have experience of will start readily on the motor once it has been running for a while

 

Richard

[by'eck]

Thanks for the replies...

 

Indeed, an 'Alpha Pro' is Mastervolts offering of an Adverc, Stirling etc. It phases the amount of amps as well as monitoring the temperature of the batteries via sensors to ensure that batteries are fully charged and not just partially as in a car etc.

 

It's a complex but professional system with a 160ah Leece Neville alternator that charges the domestic bank (4 x 200ah gels) at 12v and the starters (2 x 110ah traction) at 24v via a Mastervolt DC-DC converter.

 

The previous owner as mentioned had to replace the alternator when the ignition had been left on beyond it's 'beep' beep' which occurs at 90-120 secs. SO I thought one of our electrical geniuses may have a solution which would in essence, switch the power off to the ignition. Very occasionally, the 1.7 ton Kelvin K3 stalls if the revs are reduced to a minimum in a hurry when in one of those 'oh shit' situations and to get down to the engine room in a hurry (or remembering to in such a situation) is not always practical.

One of my alternators referred to above is the same make/output as yours and as mentioned I didn't have an issue. I can't comment on the Mastervolt device though, but it can't put more current through the stationary alternators field than would happen without it fitted.

 

Incidentally isn't the beep there to tell you you have left ignition on. Guess it may not be loud enough though.

[koukouvagia]

I did consider running cables to isolate the ignition switch but feel that the run may be too long for an ignition circuit. Again, this would only help when on the boat.

 

 

These pictures are of one of the K2 Lighthouse Kelvins. As you can see there is a starter button mounted on the engine and a second wandering lead connected to a second starter button. I was told by a lighthouse keeper who used to look after these Kelvins that in order to start the engine he had to put his hand over the carburetor to act as a sort of choke. The operator couldn't reach the static button and the carburetor at the same time - hence the wandering lead.

 

[Markinaboat]

Sorry for delay but been out of action.

 

All interesting stuff. My main concern as mentioned is if it stalls when I am away from the boat (at a lock etc), can't hear it running from more than a boat length or two away. I do like the idea of a remote starter though providing the cable length to the steering position of around 20 ft is viable.

 

With regards to alternator damage, all I can relate is the fact that the previous owner was quite adamant of this issue having been a victim of it and he could not over-emphasise.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Markinaboat

[RLWP]

20 foot might be OK, it definitely would if it switched a relay

 

Richard

[Markinaboat]

Cheers Richard, something to look into once the mound of essential work has been done!

[ditchcrawler]

I would contact mastervolt

[RLWP]

Cheers Richard, something to look into once the mound of essential work has been done!

I have done something similar to start and stop a JP4 on a Dutch Klipper

 

Richard

[Sir Nibble]

I can imagine nothing that would damage a stationary alternator apart from sever overvolting or polarity reversal.