Can a bill of sale be emailed?

[Micha Cook]

Hello hello, we are currently working on buying a boat that's listed by Hartford Marina. We have gotten to the point where all that is left it to complete the purchase. Our broker has said that he will email the bill of sale to us once the payment is received. We have never bought anything substantial before, but were under the impression these things needed to be done face to face? We are based in London at the moment so it is far to travel--probably why the broker offered to do it electronically. Could anyone tell us what their experience is?

 

Thank you,

Micha

[Stilllearning]

We have only ever bought with face to face completion, and a real piece of paper, but I suppose in this day and age, email should be OK. However, in this instance, why not ask the broker to post the paper copy to you?

Good luck anyway, and welcome to the forum.

I am sure others here will have their own opinions and comments to make.

[zenataomm]

I don't see why it has to be face to face, but I think I might want it posted with a real inky signature.

I might also (if I was concerned about their financial stability) use an escrow service.

 

However knowing that you'll be collecting the boat at some point, why not do it all at the same time?

[Delta9]

yes

[Micha Cook]

Thank you both, that seems like a good solution. We are happy to go down there to do it but of course if it seems legitimate it would be simpler.

 

Zenataomm, is there an escrow service you would recommend? We are hoping to collect the boat and start cruising it London-wards on the same day. From what I have read, it seems that you need insurance and a cruising license before you start travelling, so presumably if we were to complete the sale on the day we would not be able to do that? We have limited and fixed time off from work in which we can do so, so it's all a little bit under a time crunch.

 

Has led us to foolishly forego the hull survey as well -- we chose not to have one as we were told it had been blacked earlier this year and had the BSS done in November 2017, but now we are wondering if we have lacked foresight. But ah well, it's done now. Silly young mistakes. The boat is a 23ft cruiser and seems to be in really good condition! The whole buying process inspired a lot of confidence and it looks sound. The survey from 2011 says that it had a 4mm hull with perforations (no details) but we were told that it had been welded at the time of blacking as well.

 

Fingers crossed! All very exciting.

[b0atman]

Signatures used to be done across a postage stamp for whatever reason why did this stop ?

[bargemast]

I hope that it will work out to be OK for you, but a hull report from 2011 saying "hull perforations" doesn't sound too good to me, and I would have prefered to check (or have it checked-) out before I would have given them my money.

 

Peter.

[Delta9]

Signatures used to be done across a postage stamp for whatever reason why did this stop ?

That was to indicate that stamp duty had been paid

[Micha Cook]

_{I hope that it will work out to be OK for you, but a hull report from 2011 saying "hull perforations" doesn't sound too good to me, and I would have prefered to check (or have it checked-) out before I would have given them my money.}

 

_Peter.

 

_{Yes, we thought the same once we'd looked at it! Admittedly, when we went to the viewing we were both so flustered (never having done anything like this before) we forgot all of our questions and confused the BSS with the survey ahah. Again, silly young mistakes. When we get it to London we are thinking of getting it checked out as it is due to be redone.}

[zenataomm]

Thank you both, that seems like a good solution. We are happy to go down there to do it but of course if it seems legitimate it would be simpler.

 

Zenataomm, is there an escrow service you would recommend? We are hoping to collect the boat and start cruising it London-wards on the same day. From what I have read, it seems that you need insurance and a cruising license before you start travelling, so presumably if we were to complete the sale on the day we would not be able to do that? We have limited and fixed time off from work in which we can do so, so it's all a little bit under a time crunch.

 

Has led us to foolishly forego the hull survey as well -- we chose not to have one as we were told it had been blacked earlier this year and had the BSS done in November 2017, but now we are wondering if we have lacked foresight. But ah well, it's done now. Silly young mistakes. The boat is a 23ft cruiser and seems to be in really good condition! The whole buying process inspired a lot of confidence and it looks sound. The survey from 2011 says that it had a 4mm hull with perforations (no details) but we were told that it had been welded at the time of blacking as well.

 

Fingers crossed! All very exciting.

If you're collecting and departing the same day, then that's the time to hand over the folding stuff and get your receipt.

People tend to do it that way and not pay in advance in case the business goes bust and The Receiver keeps your money ('cos it's not yours any more) and they keep the boat ( as it's part of the assets to be liquidated) Consequently you join the list of creditors, probably at the bottom of the list.

 

You can get your insurance asap, likewise what's wrong with licensing it in time for when you depart?

 

You can't do your BSS in advance so I guess it was done in November 2013 and expires in 2017?

 

The last four boats I bought I surveyed, however the last 6 boats I've sold the buyers have not surveyed. To me common sense says do it, if only on the basis that if I were spending at least £6K on a car (most unlikely ....) I would want an independent geezer to give it a shufty on my behalf. Boats cost more.

 

If I were you, seeing as you've recognised you are where you are and are going ahead the only unknown is will your insurance company ask for a survey report?

However panic ye not! As it will depend on the company, the age of the boat and whether you want comprehensive insurance.

[Micha Cook]

If you're collecting and departing the same day, then that's the time to hand over the folding stuff and get your receipt.

People tend to do it that way and not pay in advance in case the business goes bust and The Receiver keeps your money ('cos it's not yours any more) and they keep the boat ( as it's part of the assets to be liquidated) Consequently you join the list of creditors, probably at the bottom of the list.

 

You can get your insurance asap, likewise what's wrong with licensing it in time for when you depart?

 

You can't do your BSS in advance so I guess it was done in November 2013 and expires in 2017?

 

The last four boats I bought I surveyed, however the last 6 boats I've sold the buyers have not surveyed. To me common sense says do it, if only on the basis that if I were spending at least £6K on a car (most unlikely ....) I would want an independent geezer to give it a shufty on my behalf. Boats cost more.

 

If I were you, seeing as you've recognised you are where you are and are going ahead the only unknown is will your insurance company ask for a survey report?

However panic ye not! As it will depend on the company, the age of the boat and whether you want comprehensive insurance.

 

The BSS is dated 24 November 2014, sorry, mistype!

 

The application for cruising license asks for insurance details, which in turn ask for the date of purchase and a copy of the bill of sale (at least the ones I've looked at). Doesn't this mean the final purchase needs to precede the rest? It's all very confusing.

 

Which insurance companies would you recommend? I think we would like comprehensive insurance seeing as we are first time boaters. It's a 1992 23ft Cruiser Stern by Springer

http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=255484

[Alan de Enfield]

Do you know the age and manufacturer of the boat ?

 

As it has been blacked it is presumably a steel narrowboat,

As it is 23 foot and the last survey showed 4mm, I'm guessing it is a Springer.

 

Before parting with your money call a few insurance companies and try to get it insured - if it is over 20 / 25 / 30 years old (depending on the company) you may need to have a survey before they will insure it.

 

Some insurance companies are reluctant to insure Springers, (or load the premiums).

 

Maybe you can hold off the 'purchase' until you have sorted out a survey and insurance.

The boat licence can be done as soon as the insurance certificate number, and BSS number are passed to C&RT

 

Better to lose £600 on a survey and walk away than £6000 on a 30 year old Springer with 'perforations'

 

Edit - did not see your post / cross posted (I am a slow typist)

Are you sure its a 1992 - I was under the impression that Springer Engineering closed down mid 80's (but could be wrong)

 

Edit again to add link to insurance co.

 

http://www.craftinsure.com/boat_insurance_quote/quote_stage2.asp

 

Edit (3)

As you are planning to cruise the boat home have you checked for canal / river / lock closures. This is the time of year when al lof the repairs are done and you may find your trip is impossible until Spring (I have not checked your route, but you should consider it)

 

Without knowing whereabouts in London to plan to moor it is difficult to advise but from Hartford Marina to Limehouse Basin is 230 miles. The route planner shows :

 

Total distance is 229 miles, 2 furlongs and 153 locks. There are at least 5 moveable bridges of which 2 are usually left open; 14 small aqueducts or underbridges and 3 tunnels (Blisworth Tunnel (3056 yards long), Maida Hill Tunnel (272 yards long) and Islington Tunnel (960 yards long)).

This is made up of 4 miles, 6½ furlongs of narrow canals; 130 miles of broad canals; 91 miles, 6¾ furlongs of small rivers; 2 miles, 4½ furlongs of tidal rivers; 17 narrow locks; 136 broad locks.

This will take 109 hours, 21 minutes which is 15 days, 4 hours and 21 minutes at 7 hours per day. For calculation purposes this is taken as 16 days.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Alan de Enfield

[Micha Cook]

Do you know the age and manufacturer of the boat ?

 

As it has been blacked it is presumably a steel narrowboat,

As it is 23 foot and the last survey showed 4mm, I'm guessing it is a Springer.

 

Before parting with your money call a few insurance companies and try to get it insured - if it is over 20 / 25 / 30 years old (depending on the company) you may need to have a survey before they will insure it.

 

Some insurance companies are reluctant to insure Springers, (or load the premiums).

 

Maybe you can hold off the 'purchase' until you have sorted out a survey and insurance.

The boat licence can be done as soon as the insurance certificate number, and BSS number are passed to C&RT

 

Better to lose £600 on a survey and walk away than £6000 on a 30 year old Springer with 'perforations'

 

That is true. Which insurance company would you recommend?

[Machpoint005]

We're not talking about VED or cars here -- there has in the past been no objection to buying the boat, insuring it and chugging away on the basis that the licensing will be sorted in the next few days. Especially if CRT knows what you are up to. Don't lose too much sleep over that, you're not going to be thrown into the nearest gaol.

[Micha Cook]

Do you know the age and manufacturer of the boat ?

 

As it has been blacked it is presumably a steel narrowboat,

As it is 23 foot and the last survey showed 4mm, I'm guessing it is a Springer.

 

Before parting with your money call a few insurance companies and try to get it insured - if it is over 20 / 25 / 30 years old (depending on the company) you may need to have a survey before they will insure it.

 

Some insurance companies are reluctant to insure Springers, (or load the premiums).

 

Maybe you can hold off the 'purchase' until you have sorted out a survey and insurance.

The boat licence can be done as soon as the insurance certificate number, and BSS number are passed to C&RT

 

Better to lose £600 on a survey and walk away than £6000 on a 30 year old Springer with 'perforations'

 

Edit - did not see your post / cross posted (I am a slow typist)

Are you sure its a 1992 - I was under the impression that Springer Engineering closed down mid 80's (but could be wrong)

 

Edit again to add link to insurance co.

 

http://www.craftinsure.com/boat_insurance_quote/quote_stage2.asp

 

Edit (3)

As you are planning to cruise the boat home have you checked for canal / river / lock closures. This is the time of year when al lof the repairs are done and you may find your trip is impossible until Spring (I have not checked your route, but you should conisder it)

 

I plugged it into a canal route planner to check the route but it didn't speak of canal river closures? I don't know where to check that. Damn, this is making it so clear how much there is to learn and (no pun intended..) navigate.

[mayalld]

So, in summary, you are looking to buy an elderly boat that had an unsatisfactory survey three years ago, on the strength of somebody telling you that some work was done on it, and you propose to go and collect it and take it to London.

 

Time, I think, for somebody to say STOP!

 

There are plenty of people doing just what you are doing, buying "tired" boats from brokers and sailing them to London, where they have nowhere to moor the boat.

 

If a boat had a three year old satisfactory survey, then I would ask "are you prepared to risk losing every penny of what you are paying for the boat to save the cost of a survey?" If the survey is 3 years old, unsatisfactory, and the seller is encouraging you to buy without a new survey, that is a HUGE clue that this is what is commonly known as "a sinker".

[junior]

Am I the only one hearing alarm bells here??

 

A 2011 survey said the hull was 4mm AND had perforations back then? 4mm is the minimum thickness you are allowed for insurance purposes (comprehensive).

 

If I were you I wouldn't be handing over any more money until I'd had it out of the water and had it surveyed. Whilst you are waiting for that to be done I'd do some more research about Stoppages, insurance companies etc...

[Micha Cook]

So, in summary, you are looking to buy an elderly boat that had an unsatisfactory survey three years ago, on the strength of somebody telling you that some work was done on it, and you propose to go and collect it and take it to London.

 

Time, I think, for somebody to say STOP!

 

There are plenty of people doing just what you are doing, buying "tired" boats from brokers and sailing them to London, where they have nowhere to moor the boat.

 

If a boat had a three year old satisfactory survey, then I would ask "are you prepared to risk losing every penny of what you are paying for the boat to save the cost of a survey?" If the survey is 3 years old, unsatisfactory, and the seller is encouraging you to buy without a new survey, that is a HUGE clue that this is what is commonly known as "a sinker".

 

He didn't encourage to buy without a survey, in fact he did the opposite. We in ignorance misunderstood what a BSS and hull blacking entailed and thought that was included, which after putting down a deposit and having a good look through the documents realised it didn't.

How quickly would we be able to arrange a survey? The window to move it is fixed, from the 18th of December to the 4th of January.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

I plugged it into a canal route planner to check the route but it didn't speak of canal river closures? I don't know where to check that. Damn, this is making it so clear how much there is to learn and (no pun intended..) navigate.

 

You need to look at your route, then go onto the C&RT website and search for the closures pages on your route - I am almost positive you will not get through before February.

 

It looks as if everyone is being extremely negative - we are just trying to save you from losing your savings, which the more you tell us, the more likely it looks.

 

It may be best to pull out of the sale for the time being, if the boat interests you then have a survey done and start re-negotiations. Forget about getting any boat (unless its all ready there) into London before Spring.

[Micha Cook]

Do you know the age and manufacturer of the boat ?

 

As it has been blacked it is presumably a steel narrowboat,

As it is 23 foot and the last survey showed 4mm, I'm guessing it is a Springer.

 

Before parting with your money call a few insurance companies and try to get it insured - if it is over 20 / 25 / 30 years old (depending on the company) you may need to have a survey before they will insure it.

 

Some insurance companies are reluctant to insure Springers, (or load the premiums).

 

Maybe you can hold off the 'purchase' until you have sorted out a survey and insurance.

The boat licence can be done as soon as the insurance certificate number, and BSS number are passed to C&RT

 

Better to lose £600 on a survey and walk away than £6000 on a 30 year old Springer with 'perforations'

 

Edit - did not see your post / cross posted (I am a slow typist)

Are you sure its a 1992 - I was under the impression that Springer Engineering closed down mid 80's (but could be wrong)

 

Edit again to add link to insurance co.

 

http://www.craftinsure.com/boat_insurance_quote/quote_stage2.asp

 

Edit (3)

As you are planning to cruise the boat home have you checked for canal / river / lock closures. This is the time of year when al lof the repairs are done and you may find your trip is impossible until Spring (I have not checked your route, but you should consider it)

 

Without knowing whereabouts in London to plan to moor it is difficult to advise but from Hartford Marina to Limehouse Basin is 230 miles. The route planner shows :

 

Total distance is 229 miles, 2 furlongs and 153 locks. There are at least 5 moveable bridges of which 2 are usually left open; 14 small aqueducts or underbridges and 3 tunnels (Blisworth Tunnel (3056 yards long), Maida Hill Tunnel (272 yards long) and Islington Tunnel (960 yards long)).

This is made up of 4 miles, 6½ furlongs of narrow canals; 130 miles of broad canals; 91 miles, 6¾ furlongs of small rivers; 2 miles, 4½ furlongs of tidal rivers; 17 narrow locks; 136 broad locks.

This will take 109 hours, 21 minutes which is 15 days, 4 hours and 21 minutes at 7 hours per day. For calculation purposes this is taken as 16 days.

That last part is what my research turned up as well, with a handy little map and breakdown by day

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

How quickly would we be able to arrange a survey? The window to move it is fixed, from the 18th of December to the 4th of January.

 

If there are no closures the trip is 16 days continuous cruising 7 or 8 hours per day.

 

Start at 8am and finish at 4pm (trying to find a mooring in the dark !!!)

You cannot stop for lunch

You cannot stop for emptying the toilet

You cannot stop for fuel, water or gas

You cannot stop for shopping

 

You leave at 8am on the 19th Dec and arrive at 4pm on the 4th Jan (you cannot leave on the 18th as you will be sorting out licences, insurance,paying for the baot, loading the boat etc.)

 

Its an impossible schedule WITHOUT considering closure, breakdowns etc etc.

[bottle]

Micha, welcome to the forum.

 

STOP NOW

 

Get your money back and start again, spend the next six months doing some research, ask questions on here and do some searching also on here.

 

Then think about a boat and why you want one, then think again.

[Micha Cook]

^{Micha, welcome to the forum.}

 

^{STOP NOW}

 

^{Get your money back and start again, spend the next six months doing some research, ask questions on here and do some searching also on here.}

 

^{Then think about a boat and why you want one, then think again.}

 

^{All of this has been done over the last 4 months or so. The only thing that is worrying me is the hull survey at the minute, the rest I think we can work around...}

 

If there are no closures the trip is 16 days continuous cruising 7 or 8 hours per day.

 

Start at 8am and finish at 4pm (trying to find a mooring in the dark !!!)

You cannot stop for lunch

You cannot stop for emptying the toilet

You cannot stop for fuel, water or gas

You cannot stop for shopping

 

You leave at 8am on the 19th Dec and arrive at 4pm on the 4th Jan (you cannot leave on the 18th as you will be sorting out licences, insurance,paying for the baot, loading the boat etc.)

 

Its an impossible schedule WITHOUT considering closure, breakdowns etc etc.

 

There is some leeway with how close we get, and after that there are weekends. We just need to do the bulk of the journey. And, if necessary, one of us could start a little earlier though that'd mean travelling alone.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

^{All of this has been done over the last 4 months or so. The only thing that is worrying me is the hull survey at the minute, the rest I think we can work around...}

 

The only way to "work around" the stoppages is to have the boat craned out and put into a low loader, then trucked into London and dropped off somewhere near your mooring.

Where is your mooring (do you have a mooring or are you planning to find one on arrival ?) Folks on here can advise the best place to crane off.

 

Trucking would solve all of your problems and the boat would be moved, and in London in just one day.

[Micha Cook]

We work in Oxford/London respectively so we're not mooring it just yet but intend to cruise it until we find a place that makes most sense.