Identification Of Places & Boats

[cheshire~rose]

The fairly recent launch of CRT's digital archive had made a few more photos of Python publicly available.

 

BUT - as has been discussed elsewhere the archive suffers from some incorrect captioning.

 

Two of the photos of Python that are now available online are ones that I paid for copies of only last year but by searching the archive with the word "Python" it shows a total of six photos. It is very clear to me that at least three of those photos have an incorrect caption. I would like to report the problem to the archives department but I felt that it would be helpful if I could offer them correct information for the images rather than just tell them they are wrong.

 

That is where I thought some of you may be able to help.

 

The first image is this one:

 

 

 

 

Autherley Junction on the Staffordshire & Worcestershire Canal

Views showing the British Waterways motorboat 'Python' and its butty 'Capella' negotiating the junction bridge heading up the Shropshire Union Canal. 1952

 

 

Now that looks nothing like Autherley Junction to me and I can't see any boats there either. Does anyone recognise where it is?

 

 

The next one is a huge dissapointment to me Picture number 2:

 

 

 

Autherley Junction on the Shropshire Union Canal

Views showing the British waterways naroowboats, motor 'Python' and butty 'Capella' negotiating the lock at the junction, the lock cottage can be sen in the background. Good views of the stern of the butty cabin. def. 1952

 

Now as far as I am concerned that is not Autherley Junction as the little toll? house there is very distinctive and the cottage sits much further back from the lock. I sincerely wish we could see a nice stern view because we might have a better chance of identifying the motor in the picture. So where might this be?

 

Picture number 3:

 

 

 

The Shropshire Union Canal at Barbridge

Views showing Bremilow Bridge no 100 looking south with farm buildings and a moored cruiser visible beyond the bridge, a British Waterways narrowboats pair, empty on cross straps seen from the bridge [possibly 'Python' and 'Capella'] and the junction bridge no 1 with large advertising boards on the bridge 1952

 

The thing that strikes me about this caption is that the detail in it makes me wonder if there is another photo somewhere which should have this caption applied. It is such a detailed description after all. IDoes anyone have any idea where this photo might be?

 

Photo number 4:

 

 

The Shropshire Union Canal at Gnosall Heath

Views showing moored leisure boats being passed by an empty British Waterways narrowboat pair, butty 'Capella' and motor 'Python', seen from Gnosall Bridge no 35, the motorboat coming through the bridge hole and the pair passing south from the bridge 1952

 

Now this one is such a wonderful photo I really, really want it to be of Python! The way the embankment rises from the towpath and the slight curve means this could well have been taken from bridge 35. There are now houses (mostly bungalows) built along the offside but my memory of them is that the age of them means they would be unlikely to have been there in 1952. What about the boats? Can one of you experts take a good look and tell me if there is any reason that can't be Python? One thing that is nagging away at me if that all the captions of these images refer to Python being paired with "Capella" On the details that Pete Harrison gave me for Python there was no mention of Python being paired with Capella. Of course with so much detail being very obviously wrong with the captions it does not really mean a thing and none of these images give us a good view of the butty for identification but as I assume the captions have come from somewhere rather than being made up in the head of an over zealous archivist (perhaps written on the back of an original picture and simply mis-matched in the archives) Perhaps once upon a time Python was paired with Capella. Does anyone know if this could be possible? Pete Harrison's archive lists Python being paired with Dawley in 1952

 

This image is dated 1950

 

Clearly it shows Python (I can read the cabin side!) From the records I have she would have been paired with Romford that year. Do any of you historians have any reason to think that is not Romford?

[Jo_]

Image 1 - Essex Bridge, Shugborough Estate, would be my guess.

[IanM]

Image 1 - Essex Bridge, Shugborough Estate, would be my guess.

I'd agree.

[alan_fincher]

Image 1 - Essex Bridge, Shugborough Estate, would be my guess.

Tempting to think so, but if you look at pictures of that like this one.....

 

 

[image Peter Ellison from Flickr]

 

then the parts below the arches are of considerable depth, and uniform.

 

In CR's photo they are much shallower, before it seems to sit on top of other much larger "bases".

 

 

This can't be explained just by a difference in river levels, as those extra "bases" are simply not in a current day picture.

 

EDIT: Also there is a divide in the modern day picture where it looks like the parapet sits wider than the arches - this is missing in the old picture

Edited November 5, 2014 by alan_fincher

[alan_fincher]

The next one is a huge dissapointment to me Picture number 2:

 

 

Now as far as I am concerned that is not Autherley Junction as the little toll? house there is very distinctive and the cottage sits much further back from the lock. I sincerely wish we could see a nice stern view because we might have a better chance of identifying the motor in the picture. So where might this be?

Am I missing something here Jan, or have I just got my wires in a twist?

 

If that were Autherley stop lock, then surely the picture is taken from the towpath side, and the building we are looking at is on the non towpath side, (the opposite side to those you refer to).

 

I don't know enough about the location to know if something like that stood on the non-towpath side at Autherley in the 1950s, but is it impossible?

 

I would say it is a stop lock, or at most a fairly shallow lock, as it seems to only have a single paddle on the gate. If it were a "full depth" lock, more than one paddle would surely be far more normal?

[cheshire~rose]

Am I missing something here Jan, or have I just got my wires in a twist?

 

If that were Autherley stop lock, then surely the picture is taken from the towpath side, and the building we are looking at is on the non towpath side, (the opposite side to those you refer to).

 

I don't know enough about the location to know if something like that stood on the non-towpath side at Autherley in the 1950s, but is it impossible?

 

I would say it is a stop lock, or at most a fairly shallow lock, as it seems to only have a single paddle on the gate. If it were a "full depth" lock, more than one paddle would surely be far more normal?

 

Yes I will blame my germ ridden thick head for not immediately clocking that the picture is taken from the towpath side.

 

I understand there used to be an aerodrome on the land that side once upon a time.

 

This picture which I have seen before is supposed to be taken in the late 50's

 

 

While it does not show if there is a building on the offside you can see a boat on the right. There is a stream runs to the side of the lock which is fed from a weir on the Staffs & Worcs canal close to the junction. Unless the area has been drastically changed over the years I do not feel there would ever have been a house in that position at Autherley lock.

[Pluto]

Having recently had to sort through Geoff Wheat's and Roger Lorenz's canal slides, can I make a plea to those of you who have older photos to put some identification on them as soon as possible. Even the most basic information, such as date and location, would be a starting point for people looking at them later.

[Timleech]

Am I missing something here Jan, or have I just got my wires in a twist?

 

If that were Autherley stop lock, then surely the picture is taken from the towpath side, and the building we are looking at is on the non towpath side, (the opposite side to those you refer to).

 

I don't know enough about the location to know if something like that stood on the non-towpath side at Autherley in the 1950s, but is it impossible?

 

I would say it is a stop lock, or at most a fairly shallow lock, as it seems to only have a single paddle on the gate. If it were a "full depth" lock, more than one paddle would surely be far more normal?

 

Definitely a stop lock, definitely Shropshire Union style, but that pic couldn't be Cut End because the gate is opening the wrong way.

Unless...

 

 

 

Edit - no, that's still wrong.

 

If not there, where?

Maybe Barbridge?

 

Tim

Edited November 5, 2014 by Timleech

[David Mack]

Photo number 4:

 

 

The boat in the foreground is a converted Army surplus pontoon. I recall lots of these in the early 70s, but were they about in 1952?

Clearly it shows Python (I can read the cabin side!) From the records I have she would have been paired with Romford that year. Do any of you historians have any reason to think that is not Romford?

Romford was one of the 24 butties built for FMC by Braithwaite & Kirk of West Bromwich. These were pretty much unique in that at the bow and stern the top 'plank' was not a separate plate rivetted to the main hull plate below, they were formed as a single plate. The main business of B&K was tank and barrel manufacture and they had the equipment to roll a deep compound curve into the plate which other boatbuilders could not do. Even so, on the B&K butties, the top plank tends to sit more vertical than on other Joshers. Its a bit hard to tell viewing the image on my phone, but I think I could be persuaded that this looks more like a B&K bow, so very possibly Romford.

[archie57]

There was a house on the outside of the lock at Autherley, long since demolished - but can't presently lay my hands on a photo at the moment

[cheshire~rose]

Thanks for your input so far everyone.

 

The boat in the foreground is a converted Army surplus pontoon. I recall lots of these in the early 70s, but were they about in 1952?

Romford was one of the 24 butties built for FMC by Braithwaite & Kirk of West Bromwich. These were pretty much unique in that at the bow and stern the top 'plank' was not a separate plate rivetted to the main hull plate below, they were formed as a single plate. The main business of B&K was tank and barrel manufacture and they had the equipment to roll a deep compound curve into the plate which other boatbuilders could not do. Even so, on the B&K butties, the top plank tends to sit more vertical than on other Joshers. Its a bit hard to tell viewing the image on my phone, but I think I could be persuaded that this looks more like a B&K bow, so very possibly Romford.

 

Fascinating!

 

I really do not have the eye for detail that many of you have where identification goes. I would love you to have a look on a larger screen sometime David and let me know if you can confirm your original thoughts.

 

I mentioned to Dave about the Army pontoon idea and he seems to think they may have been sold off in large numbers in the 50's. Although they were never really meant to last that long we think they were fairly substantial compared to many leisure boats built later. Something built in the 50's and taken care of could easily have still been around in the 70's

 

Archie, I will have a dig around and see if I can find any more old pictures. The thing is that even if the place is right the caption is wrong because we cannot see the stern of a butty!

 

What are peoples thoughts on the Gnosall one?

Edited November 5, 2014 by cheshire~rose

[David Mack]

I mentioned to Dave about the Army pontoon idea and he seems to think they may have been sold off in large numbers in the 50's. Although they were never really meant to last that long we think they were fairly substantial compared to many leisure boats built later. Something built in the 50's and taken care of could easily have still been around in the 70's

 

My understanding (though I could be completely wrong) was that the pontoon conversions I saw in the 70s were all relatively recent at that time. I certainly never thought of them as 20 years old. Which isn't to say there wasn't an earlier generation of pontoon conversions which had already made their way to boat heaven.

[Rusty Rivet]

I do think the first image is Essex Bridge, taken from the Great Haywood end of the bridge. This photo clearly shows the downstream elevation of the bridge being simpler in construction than the image Alan posted, which I think was taken from the opposite bank and upstream of the bridge. This image also shows the bridge curving to the left at the far end, which can also be seen on Google Earth but I don't know how to post a link to this.

 

 

[ Image by Shaun from Flickr ]

[Richard T]

The OS 6inch series dated 1884 clearly shows a building offside at Autherley Junction.It was still shown on maps to 1938. See link http://maps.nls.uk/view/101597093

[cheshire~rose]

That is interesting.

 

There is a small brick built shed in that area now. I suspect it possibly houses equipment to gauge/control water levels

Edited November 5, 2014 by cheshire~rose

[pete harrison]

Romford was one of the 24 butties built for FMC by Braithwaite & Kirk of West Bromwich. These were pretty much unique in that at the bow and stern the top 'plank' was not a separate plate rivetted to the main hull plate below, they were formed as a single plate. The main business of B&K was tank and barrel manufacture and they had the equipment to roll a deep compound curve into the plate which other boatbuilders could not do. Even so, on the B&K butties, the top plank tends to sit more vertical than on other Joshers. Its a bit hard to tell viewing the image on my phone, but I think I could be persuaded that this looks more like a B&K bow, so very possibly Romford.

Assuming the claimed date of 1950 is correct then things can be tightened up considerably, and I think the boat paired with PYTHON is one of of the horse boats (not buttys) built by Braithwaite & Kirk.

 

Of the 24 horse boats built by Braithwaite & Kirk only 6 found their way into the 'British Waterways' fleet in January 1949. Of those only three were fore decked rather than fore cabined, and one of the fore decked boats operated in the Northern fleet of 'British Waterways' - and PYTHON was in the Southern fleet. this only leaves two fore decked boats - ROMFORD and UPWOOD. Although UPWOOD was in active service in July 1949 (paired with LILY) by early 1951 it was on the Paddington / Cowley Tip traffic, on which it remained until being scuttled at Harefield in March 1956.

 

My money is the photograph being PYTHON and ROMFORD as this pair appear on two 1949 fleet lists, again assuming the claimed date of 1950 is correct.

 

I do not believe PYTHON is the boat in any of the other photographs

[cheshire~rose]

Yes there was a house (or at least a fairly large building) the other side of the lock:

 

I have registered for this website (it's free) and it allows you to zoom in.

 

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw061267

 

 

Assuming the claimed date of 1950 is correct then things can be tightened up considerably, and I think the boat paired with PYTHON is one of of the horse boats (not buttys) built by Braithwaite & Kirk.

 

Of the 24 horse boats built by Braithwaite & Kirk only 6 found their way into the 'British Waterways' fleet in January 1949. Of those only three were fore decked rather than fore cabined, and one of the fore decked boats operated in the Northern fleet of 'British Waterways' - and PYTHON was in the Southern fleet. this only leaves two fore decked boats - ROMFORD and UPWOOD. Although UPWOOD was in active service in July 1949 (paired with LILY) by early 1951 it was on the Paddington / Cowley Tip traffic, on which it remained until being scuttled at Harefield in March 1956.

 

My money is the photograph being PYTHON and ROMFORD as this pair appear on two 1949 fleet lists, again assuming the claimed date of 1950 is correct.

 

I do not believe PYTHON is the boat in any of the other photographs

 

Thank you Pete

 

Your comment about Python being in the Southern Fleet reminded me that was another reason that I did not think Python could have been photographed on The Shroppie

[alan_fincher]

Yes there was a house (or at least a fairly large building) the other side of the lock:

 

I have registered for this website (it's free) and it allows you to zoom in.

 

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw061267

 

 

 

 

Yes, but as Tim has already pointed out the gate is simply swinging the wrong way for the picture you have posted to be the Autherley lock viewed from the tow-path side - something I thought I had checked out, but still managed to get wrong.

 

Hence I can't now see it can possibly be Autherley.

[cheshire~rose]

 

Yes, but as Tim has already pointed out the gate is simply swinging the wrong way for the picture you have posted to be the Autherley lock viewed from the tow-path side - something I thought I had checked out, but still managed to get wrong.

 

Hence I can't now see it can possibly be Autherley.

 

I think it CAN be Autherley

 

The photo was taken from the towpath side looking south. If we were to pan out the bridge would be on the right of the photo with the junction beyond

[pete harrison]

Thank you Pete

 

Your comment about Python being in the Southern Fleet reminded me that was another reason that I did not think Python could have been photographed on The Shroppie

Unfortunately it is not that straight forward as Southern boats did occasionally work into the Northern area, and Northern boats occasionally worked into the Southern area.

[alan_fincher]

 

I think it CAN be Autherley

 

The photo was taken from the towpath side looking south. If we were to pan out the bridge would be on the right of the photo with the junction beyond

 

Sorry not seeing it, (assuming you are talking about picture as you posted it, rather than any reversed form of it).

 

If you are on the tow path, with the bridge and junction, (and the other lock gate), to your right, and the rest of the Shroppie to your left, then Autherley stop lock is a downhill lock towards the junction, surely?

 

The gate pictured can not hold the water back on a lock that is downhill in that direction. Like Tim, I remain convinced it would need to open the other way.

[cheshire~rose]

 

Sorry not seeing it, (assuming you are talking about picture as you posted it, rather than any reversed form of it).

 

If you are on the tow path, with the bridge and junction, (and the other lock gate), to your right, and the rest of the Shroppie to your left, then Autherley stop lock is a downhill lock towards the junction, surely?

 

The gate pictured can not hold the water back on a lock that is downhill in that direction. Like Tim, I remain convinced it would need to open the other way.

 

The Staffs & Worcs has the higher water level than The Shroppie and the positioning of that gate is correct

 

See this image - the house in the photo would be behind the copper tree

 

Unfortunately it is not that straight forward as Southern boats did occasionally work into the Northern area, and Northern boats occasionally worked into the Southern area.

 

Nothing ever is that straightforward! That is why I really appreciate the input of people like yourself Pete.

 

Would you care to elaborate as to why you do not think Python is in any of the other photos?

 

I can't help thinking that somewhere there are some photos that the captions belong to but perhaps it is wishful thinking?

[alan_fincher]

The Staffs & Worcs has the higher water level than The Shroppie and the positioning of that gate is correct

 

See this image - the house in the photo would be behind the copper tree

 

Well I'm feeling fairly silly now!

 

I had originally convinced myself it could be Autherley, and the gate swing was correct, but then allowed myself to accept that Tim was correct!

 

I now have no idea how!

 

I apologise profusely.

 

Maybe that picture is of Autherley!

[Timleech]

Well I'm feeling fairly silly now!

 

I had originally convinced myself it could be Autherley, and the gate swing was correct, but then allowed myself to accept that Tim was correct!

 

I now have no idea how!

 

I apologise profusely.

 

Maybe that picture is of Autherley!

 

Blame me if you like

 

I reckoned that the lead in to the lock in the original pic was too fine, based partly on the other pic (presume taken from the bridge), but not so sure after seeing the last picture.

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

Blame me if you like

Thanks! - Will do!