Battery Charging

[WJM]

I have one of these Victron combined Inverter/Charger units. I dont live aboard but I do have a mains electricity point at my mooring. Up until now I have isolated the batteries and removed the mains supply whenever I am away from the boat. However, I notice my domestic batteries have not been lasting so long recently. I put this down to the fact that I only do short blasts up the river or the canal and they must not be getting a good 'fill' like they do in the summer when I could cruise for 8 or 10 hours a day. So... I decided to leave the batteries connected, the mains supply on and the Victron unit set to CHARGING ONLY.

 

Is it ok to leave it like this sort term or long term? - the Victron seems to have various intellegent charging modes which makes me think this might actually be good for the batteries - opinions welcome!

[anhar]

I have one of these Victron combined Inverter/Charger units. I dont live aboard but I do have a mains electricity point at my mooring. Up until now I have isolated the batteries and removed the mains supply whenever I am away from the boat. However, I notice my domestic batteries have not been lasting so long recently. I put this down to the fact that I only do short blasts up the river or the canal and they must not be getting a good 'fill' like they do in the summer when I could cruise for 8 or 10 hours a day. So... I decided to leave the batteries connected, the mains supply on and the Victron unit set to CHARGING ONLY.

 

Is it ok to leave it like this sort term or long term? - the Victron seems to have various intellegent charging modes which makes me think this might actually be good for the batteries - opinions welcome!

I'd say you should contact Victron for the definitive opinion on this. I've had good advice from them on a couple of points, though I've not asked that particular question. Your set up is what I'm having on my boat currently being built and my understanding is that the batteries can be left on charge with this unit indefinitely. In fact that's the whole point of having a smart multi stage charger or a combi unit like this, ie. that the batteries can be left on charge for long periods whilst the boat is unoccupied.

 

regards

Steve

[WJM]

Of course going this route my wonderfully charged batteries will sit in a slowly dissolving boat - Galvanic Isolator or not (LOL)

- PLEASE DONT REPLY TO THIS COMMENT - Horse, Flogged, Dead?!

[anhar]

Of course going this route my wonderfully charged batteries will sit in a slowly dissolving boat - Galvanic Isolator or not (LOL)

- PLEASE DONT REPLY TO THIS COMMENT - Horse, Flogged, Dead?!

I'm not replying to the GI point, I know nothing about that and as you say we don't want the thread hijacked into a discussion about them, but since you have a charger within the mult unit, when did you propose using it? I don't understand why you want a charger powered from a shore line if you fear using it.

 

I'm having my multi because I want my batteries charged up all the time off the shore line at my mooring and I won't have to worry about returning to my boat with flat batteries when I haven't used it for a while, not being a liveaboard. Also I believe that battery life is at its longest when they are kept constantly charged.

 

Steve

Edited January 25, 2007 by anhar

[chris w]

In fact that's the whole point of having a smart multi stage charger or a combi unit like this, ie. that the batteries can be left on charge for long periods whilst the boat is unoccupied.

regards

Steve

I concur with Steve. So long as you have a multi-stage charger (which you do) then, once charged, the voltage will drop down to a safe float-charge level (~13.6v) which can be left on indefinitely. Your batteries will have a far longer life this way as allowing them to discharge and stay discharged for a couple of weeks will cause heavy sulphation of the plates which is analogous to putting a waterproof skin over the plates - ie: the effective plate area is severely reduced.

 

If the Victron has an option to initiate a high-voltage desulphation charge once a week (I believe it does) then this is a great thing to set up in the operating mode.

 

Chris

[WJM]

"when did you propose using it?"

 

I have left it running for the last couple of days to see if it solves the problem of my batteries running out - my worry is that somebody more knowledgeable than me suddenly says "You should never do that because..."

[elessina]

I have one of these Victron combined Inverter/Charger units. ...... So... I decided to leave the batteries connected, the mains supply on and the Victron unit set to CHARGING ONLY.......Is it ok to leave it like this sort term or long term? !

We leave our Victron Multi connected all the time, have done so for about two years now. But yes, make sure it is switched to 'charging only'. No problems so far!!.

 

Ian

Elessina

[blackrose]

"when did you propose using it?"

 

I have left it running for the last couple of days to see if it solves the problem of my batteries running out - my worry is that somebody more knowledgeable than me suddenly says "You should never do that because..."

 

I leave my Sterling intelligent charger on all the time - that is the thing to do! If your Victron programme is anything like my Sterling's (it's probably better), after a week or so it will sense inactivity and rather than just leaving it on "float" it will the charger through a full cycle which is supposed to minimise sulphation (I think!)

Edited January 25, 2007 by blackrose

[chris w]

I leave my Sterling intelligent charger on all the time - that is the thing to do! If your Victron programme is anything like my Sterling's (it's probably better), after a week or so it will sense inactivity and rather than just leaving it on "float" it will the charger through a full cycle which is supposed to minimise sulphation (I think!)

 

 

The Sterling will run the desulphation automatically once every 7 days. I believe one has to program the Victron to do this but it does indeed have the facility.

 

Chris

[Theo]

If yo are really concerend about the GI problem why not use photovoltaics? See Tom and Sophie's thread.

 

Nick

[carlt]

If yo are really concerend about the GI problem why not use photovoltaics? See Tom and Sophie's thread.

 

Nick

Or get yourself a wooden boat

[blackrose]

Or get yourself a wooden boat

 

That wouldn't necessarily protect your underwater hardware which might not be electrically isolated.

[DHutch]

We basicaly dont leave ours on float while where not that (overwinter)

- We used to a big more, for a week or so if leaving the boat, although not really much as usally move quite a bit, and overwinter at cheaper places (no shoreline). This is with a (now 15yo) sterling charge.

 

Never seamed to do any harm when we did.

- Although once my grandad came back after a week to see it runing 5amps in the batterys, and on inspection one of the cells of the four batterys (4*12v, wired in pairs to give 2*24v) had collapsted.

 

We will never know what caused that, could have been an error within the charger, or it could just have been co-insidents, cells fail, the batterys where yo 5.

- However we havnt really left it on float much since, partly because of that, partly becuase as no ones really spending any time on her other than when crusing.

 

However, the batterys seam fine being left isolated for 6/8weeks, and we go to the boat every now and again anyway just to check on it, and when we do we plug in for 3/4hours and whack them on charge (they usally float almost stright away, but its free so what the hell..).

- And im not sure i would be happy with leaving it all "on" while away. Im sure i could if i wanted, but im happyer not. PLus we dont have GI/IT.

 

 

Daniel

 

 

 

 

 

If yo are really concerend about the GI problem why not use photovoltaics?

Or for half the cost, and ten times the affectness, go the full hog and get a IsolatingTransformer. Proberbly more ecofreindly as well.

 

Daniel

 

{not that im agaisnt PVs, but there not always the best tool for the job}

[WJM]

Hijacked - by the Galvanic Corrosion Fetish Society! :-)

[ChrisPy]

Hijacked - by the Galvanic Corrosion Fetish Society! :-)

don't be so disgusting ................................ that's a four-word letter round ear mate ....................

[Roger Gunkel]

Forgive me if I am stating the obvious here, but I am speaking from personal experience. A few months ago I noticed a considerable shortening of the running time on batteries although they were only two years old. After trying various things out, I thought I would buy a hygrometer and test each cell. It immediately became obvious what was wrong when I could find hardly any water in the batteries. Although I checked the levels only 3 months previously, they had dropped in level to about 50%. I was staggered to say the least, but I have since been told that this is common on batteries that are on constant charge with regular useage. I now check them every month and also added some tablets called 'BAT-AID'. My batteries have steadily improved and are now back to normal. Coincidentally the guy on the boat next to ours had the same problem and has also cured it.

The engine starter battery which is the same size and age as the domestics, has never needed topping up at all.

Roger

[Keeping Up]

Forgive me if I am stating the obvious here, but I am speaking from personal experience. A few months ago I noticed a considerable shortening of the running time on batteries although they were only two years old. After trying various things out, I thought I would buy a hygrometer and test each cell. It immediately became obvious what was wrong when I could find hardly any water in the batteries. Although I checked the levels only 3 months previously, they had dropped in level to about 50%. I was staggered to say the least, but I have since been told that this is common on batteries that are on constant charge with regular useage. I now check them every month and also added some tablets called 'BAT-AID'. My batteries have steadily improved and are now back to normal. Coincidentally the guy on the boat next to ours had the same problem and has also cured it.

The engine starter battery which is the same size and age as the domestics, has never needed topping up at all.

Roger

It's certainly common if you're using a cheap (ie non-intelligent) battery charger, but shouldn't happen to that extent with a 'proper' charger unless the batteries are starting to feel their age.

 

Allan

[chris w]

Although I checked the levels only 3 months previously, they had dropped in level to about 50%.

 

The engine starter battery which is the same size and age as the domestics, has never needed topping up at all.

Roger

 

You should check your hard-worked domestic batteries at least once a month. With all due respect to what Allan said, an intelligent multi-stage charger (definitely to be recommended) can mean that the batteries need topping up more frequently because part of the charging cycle is at ~14.8v which will encourage water loss. But don't be tempted to use a cheap battery charger for your domestics - it's totally false economy, ineffective and will shorten the life of the batteries.

 

Your starter battery on the other hand is hardly used. About 1 ampere-hour to start the engine and it's recharged in a few minutes. So very little water loss.

 

Chris

[WJM]

Interesting - but I dont think my batteries have an opening in the top - they are less than 2 years old and as far as i can see they are sealed

[chris w]

Interesting - but I dont think my batteries have an opening in the top - they are less than 2 years old and as far as i can see they are sealed

 

Yes, a sealed battery cannot be topped up and is therefore "maintenance-free". However, this does make the battery much more susceptible to the ill-effects of an incorrect charging regime. If a sealed gel battery is charged at too high a voltage, a safety vent will blow which will discharge some of the contents in order to relieve the pressure. This equates to lost capacity which can never be replaced.

 

To be fair, if a wet lead-acid battery were to be charged using the same routine as for a sealed gel battery, then it too would be maintenance-free. It's their ability to tolerate fast charging regimes coupled with their low relative cost which makes wet cells still very attractive.

 

Chris

[anhar]

Yes, a sealed battery cannot be topped up and is therefore "maintenance-free". However, this does make the battery much more susceptible to the ill-effects of an incorrect charging regime. If a sealed gel battery is charged at too high a voltage, a safety vent will blow which will discharge some of the contents in order to relieve the pressure. This equates to lost capacity which can never be replaced.

 

To be fair, if a wet lead-acid battery were to be charged using the same routine as for a sealed gel battery, then it too would be maintenance-free. It's their ability to tolerate fast charging regimes coupled with their low relative cost which makes wet cells still very attractive.

 

Chris

Hello Chris

 

I don't quite follow you here, in your last para. You said earlier that using a smart charger would still require a wet battery to be topped up monthly or more often. But now you say that a similar charger would make a wet battery maintenance free using the same routine. Have I misunderstood something?

 

regards

Steve

[chris w]

Hello Chris

 

I don't quite follow you here, in your last para. You said earlier that using a smart charger would still require a wet battery to be topped up monthly or more often. But now you say that a similar charger would make a wet battery maintenance free using the same routine. Have I misunderstood something?

 

regards

Steve

Yes, I maybe wasn't clear enough. The smart chargers have different programs depending on whether the battery is a wet-cell type or a gel type or an AGM type. For example the wet-cells will be charged (during part of the cycle) at 14.8v whereas the gel types will be similarly charged at 14.4v. This doesn't sound like much of a difference but it really is in battery charging terms without going into the maths.

 

So, what I meant was, that if you recharged the wet-cells at the gel battery setting they would be effectively as maintenance-free as the gel batteries. However, the true higher charging voltage for the wet-cells is an advantage as it helps to equalise the cells and desulphate them. The penalty is more loss of water compared to charging at lower voltages.

 

Chris

Edited January 26, 2007 by chris w

[anhar]

Yes, I maybe wasn't clear enough. The smart chargers have different programs depending on whether the battery is a wet-cell type or a gel type or an AGM type. For example the wet-cells will be charged (during part of the cycle) at 14.8v whereas the gel types will be similarly charged at 14.4v. This doesn't sound like much of a difference but it really is in battery charging terms without going into the maths.

 

So, what I meant was, that if you recharged the wet-cells at the gel battery setting they would be effectively as maintenance-free as the gel batteries. However, the true higher charging voltage for the wet-cells is an advantage as it helps to equalise the cells and desulphate them. The penalty is more loss of water compared to charging at lower voltages.

 

Chris

Okay thanks.

 

Steve

[WJM]

"The Sterling will run the desulphation automatically once every 7 days. I believe one has to program the Victron to do this but it does indeed have the facility."

 

 

Does anyone know if / how to programme a Victron? - I have the 12/1600/75 Inverter Charger - but I have no idea even where to start. The manual does not appear to have anything on this.

[elessina]

Does anyone know if / how to programme a Victron? - I have the 12/1600/75 Inverter Charger - but I have no idea even where to start. The manual does not appear to have anything on this.

 

Programming the Victron is explained in the installation manual (not user manual), but if you do not have one it can be downloaded from the web from here victron manuals.

 

There are two ways to programme the Victron, one is with dipswitches – see installation manual (I have never used this method) the other is with a laptop / pc. This I have found to be reasonably straight forward, but you have to be careful because there are many settings you can change.

 

To use the laptop method you need to buy a Interface module (Mk2b-VE-Interface Victron interface module - to connect PC to Phoenix Multi & Multi = £45.00 = Energy Solutions list price) and a RJ11 patch lead (£2 to £15 depending on length). If you do not have a serial socket on your laptop (many new ones do not) you will also need a USB-RS232 Converter USB (v1.1 compliant) to RS232 (Serial) Converter (for Mac & PC) c/w driver software on CD. which is around £25.

 

 

Hope this helps

 

Ian

elessina