Talk me out of this... newbie taking on a project

[GlosRich]

Hi all,

 

My wife and I have enough saved to take on a project boat... £10000, plus allowance for mooring fees and CRT license. The question is whether what I consider a project is really out there. We have ample income to cover eventualities, the sum we have right now that available without taking a loan. At present I'm working only during university terms, so I have the usual school holidays available to work on any boat we might get- that's likely to be the situation for about 8 years, so there's no time like the present to get started! That and that it will allow dog friendly holidays with our daughter for a few years.

 

We're lucky enough to have some very useful skills in the family, electrician, joinery, plumbing, all of whom will work for holidays, plus our own experience. So what we need to find is a sound shell and usable engine, something that could get a BSSC. Naturally, anything involving gas will get other professionals hired in! We even have spare appliances and good timber which can go towards kitting out...

 

A consideration is that we'd be gearing a boat at holiday use, and would like four berths- from what I can work out, that means we'd want a 40 footer at least. If we could get large enough to go up to six berths it would be marvellous, though obviously that comes with increased license and mooring fees.

 

I've come across pathetically transparent scams so far in my search, listing boats around the £5k mark with pictures and text stolen from other sites and using a ridiculous story to try and get me to use an ebay "buy it now" without having seen the boat, and some boats that are immediately usable around the £15k mark- I figure that there must be some middle ground...

[Alan de Enfield]

.............. it will allow dog friendly holidays with our daughter for a few years.

 

 

Thats not very nice,

 

In your fit-out will you have to incorporate a large basket and a couple of bowls for her ?

[GlosRich]

I like this forum already ... !

 

 

 

Thats not very nice,

 

In your fit-out will you have to incorporate a large basket and a couple of bowls for her ?

[Paul G2]

This would need a whole lot of checking out by people who know what's what, but it might be of interest if the hull is in decent condition.

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=67961

[alan_fincher]

So what we need to find is a sound shell and usable engine, something that could get a BSSC.

 

I think you probably already know this, but sound shell and usable engine have little to do with whether it will easily get a safety certificate, so I'm guessing you are listing that as a third requirement, rather than something deriving from the first two?

 

I think the biggest problem at the kind of price point you are erring towards, is to come up with something where welding isn't amongst the list of skills you need access to.

 

There is of course no reason why you can't find a reasonable shell and engine at that budget, but I would argue that there are a lot of boats advertised for quite a bit more that would fail those basic requirements.

[David Mack]

If you buy a boat which is just a shell and engine (or you strip out a boat with a poor fitout) and then refit, you are basically doing the same amount of work as someone who fits out a new sailaway, but you still end up with an old boat, worth significantly less, and with all the risk factors - corroded hull, worn out engine etc.

 

But for £10k you may have to look at a lot of boats before you can find one that nmeets your requirements and doesn't need too much work. It can be done - Starcoaster on here picked up a bargain for much less on Ebay. But you will have to wait for the right opportunity to come up.

[Neil2]

Alan's right, sadly the vast majority of boats at this level are going to have issues with the structure and probably engine as well.

 

You have a chance at 40' as boats this length and below are falling out of favour now, but there's a good reason for this, 45 foot is about the minimum that two people can co-exist for any length of time.

 

But it could take a long time and a lot of leg work to find an honest boat.

[Boat&Bikes]

Alan's right, sadly the vast majority of boats at this level are going to have issues with the structure and probably engine as well.

 

You have a chance at 40' as boats this length and below are falling out of favour now, but there's a good reason for this, 45 foot is about the minimum that two people can co-exist for any length of time.

 

But it could take a long time and a lot of leg work to find an honest boat.

Are you sure 40 footers and less are falling out of favour?

 

Ian

[GlosRich]

This would need a whole lot of checking out by people who know what's what, but it might be of interest if the hull is in decent condition.

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=67961

Thanks for that, that's definitely worth a look.

 

 

I think you probably already know this, but sound shell and usable engine have little to do with whether it will easily get a safety certificate, so I'm guessing you are listing that as a third requirement, rather than something deriving from the first two?

 

I think the biggest problem at the kind of price point you are erring towards, is to come up with something where welding isn't amongst the list of skills you need access to.

 

There is of course no reason why you can't find a reasonable shell and engine at that budget, but I would argue that there are a lot of boats advertised for quite a bit more that would fail those basic requirements.

 

re: the BSSC, yes, you read me right. What I could sum it up with is that tidyness doesn't matter, but safety does (and IMO always should).

 

Welding is a family skill, my father in law no less, unfortunately he lives in Cumbria! If only I could persuade my mother in law that we could keep the boat on their farm while working on it!

 

I'll be honest, I can't quite get my head around that I could get a 45' sailaway boat brand new for less than £20k, and yet a used boat needing refit doesn't fall a lot below that.

Edited July 7, 2014 by GlosRich

[DustyDave]

Look for 15k or even 20k boats and put cheeky offers in. One of my neighbours got a nice 45ft bright orange boat for 15k. He got it painted for 3k and did a lot of other work himself. It's now a nice boat for not a lot of money.

Many boat owners who are selling are fed up and just want to get rid of the boat. Cheeky offers may get turned down but you might get lucky and you only need it to happen once.

Give me a shout if you see anything local. I'm quite happy to give a second opinion.

Cheers,

Dave

Edited July 7, 2014 by DustyDave

[GlosRich]

I've reached my quota of positive votes, so for now I'll just say an all round thank you for the input. As we have the funds in place, I'll keep watching the marketplace like a hawk. This isn't a new idea, it's just having reached a milestone of funds that gives me the impetus to really start looking.

[Paul C]

 

 

 

 

I'll be honest, I can't quite get my head around that I could get a 45' sailaway boat brand new for less than £20k, and yet a used boat needing refit doesn't fall a lot below that.

 

It depends what other people's opinion of "needing refit" is - there's some people out there who will accept and live in, a boat that another considers needing refit.

[Neil2]

Are you sure 40 footers and less are falling out of favour?

 

Ian

Well I should say it's just my opinion, but I spent the best part of 2013 trawling the narrowboat market so it is based on more than mere conjecture. I've heard other members argue this isn't the case usually citing the case of a very nice well kept boat selling within a week or two. This ignores the scores of unloved short boats languishing on AD and brokers websites.

 

The under 40 foot bracket is pretty much limited to single folks which chokes off the demand considerably.

[David Mack]

The under 40 foot bracket is pretty much limited to single folks which chokes off the demand considerably.

But why should that be? My first boat holiday (aged 7) was on a 24 ft long centre cockpit cruiser. If that was OK for 2 adults and 2 kids in the 60s, why is a boat virtually twice that length now only fit for a singleton?

[GlosRich]

You could compare them to caravans. I had a 14' van that was two berth, and a 17' that was five berth- in either case, all right for a holiday so long as a lot of time isn't spent indoors. It's partially about expectation, but also I think that while boating you find yourself in a situation without anywhere to sit out for the evening more often than at a festival or campsite where there's nearly always a bar handy.

[David Mack]

Folding chairs on the towpath?

[Mendip-Locks]

I'm doing much the same but keeping an eye for the right boat you've no doubt seen this http://apolloduck.net/370753 7 grand engine serviced tail end of last year, could be Grp top by the look of it ? 38ft though , Also this http://apolloduck.net/338054 8 half grand Grp top. I'm trawling aduck , eBay, pre loved, boats & outboards , newsnowco.uk who lift adverts from aduck etc. avoid loot all to good to be true, towpath trader , towpath talk, boatshed, I'm sure you probably know these.

Sailaways £22,995 55ft? + vat http://www.scanalcraft.co.uk/aboutscc.htm

handy quote calculator http://www.nickthorpeboatbuilding.com/calculator.asp

I'll be watching this thread with interest.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Mendip-Locks

[BruceinSanity]

But why should that be? My first boat holiday (aged 7) was on a 24 ft long centre cockpit cruiser. If that was OK for 2 adults and 2 kids in the 60s, why is a boat virtually twice that length now only fit for a singleton?

Indeed, especially if we're talking holiday rather than liveaboard/extended cruising. Our second hire was on a Barney Boat in '76, 35' single cylinder Saab engine. Barney used to build where Wharf House are now at the foot of Braunston. Two of us plus dog and six month old baby had two weeks, no bother.

[GlosRich]

I'm doing much the same but keeping an eye for the right boat you've no doubt seen this http://apolloduck.net/370753 7 grand engine serviced tail end of last year, could be Grp top by the look of it ? 38ft though , Also this http://apolloduck.net/338054 8 half grand Grp top. I'm trawling aduck , eBay, pre loved, boats & outboards , newsnowco.uk who lift adverts from aduck etc. avoid loot all to good to be true, towpath trader , towpath talk, boatshed, I'm sure you probably know these.

Sailaways £22,995 55ft? + vat http://www.scanalcraft.co.uk/aboutscc.htm

handy quote calculator http://www.nickthorpeboatbuilding.com/calculator.asp

I'll be watching this thread with interest.

 

Boatshed is a new one for me, many thanks for that.

 

Having the funds, I'm ready to pounce when a suitable boat appears, I'm going to take a look at one from ebay on Saturday. We'll also keep adding to our savings. Something I have noticed in the few years I've been keeping half an eye is that prices have fallen a bit at the older end of boats, I guess in tough time leisure items are the first to go.

[Neil2]

But why should that be? My first boat holiday (aged 7) was on a 24 ft long centre cockpit cruiser. If that was OK for 2 adults and 2 kids in the 60s, why is a boat virtually twice that length now only fit for a singleton?

 

Indeed, especially if we're talking holiday rather than liveaboard/extended cruising. Our second hire was on a Barney Boat in '76, 35' single cylinder Saab engine. Barney used to build where Wharf House are now at the foot of Braunston. Two of us plus dog and six month old baby had two weeks, no bother.

 

With all respect guys, we are not talking about days gone by, nor are we talking about what you might be prepared to endure in the adventure spirit of a holiday in summer.

 

What folk were happy to live with 20-30 years ago is frankly no longer acceptable. A couple looking for their first boat now will want a permanent bed, a decent sized lounge and a kitchen comparable to what they have at home and you cannot get this in a space much less than 45 foot.

 

.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

 

What folk were happy to live with 20-30 years ago is frankly no longer acceptable.

.

 

Totally agree - not only as individuals, but as a 'population' our aspirations and expectations continue to grow.

 

We started camping over 30 years ago in a little 2 man tent that was about 6 foot long x 5 foot wide by 2'6" high - happiness - we then moved up to a 'continental frame tent' with a seperate bedroom, and so on until we bought a 10ft caravan, then a 15 foot caravan, then a 23 foot caravan, then a static caravan (as we had bought a boat) ........................... then a bigger boat, then a bigger boat ......

 

At each stage you are looking for a bit more luxury and comfort (and as the 'bones get older' you dont want to be lying on the ground !!!.

 

Just think back to B&B's and hotels in the 70's & 80's - how many had tea making facilties or a trouser press in the room, In how many of them did a pee in the middle of the night mean a walk down the corridor (or the use of the hand basin)

 

In every walk off live our 'standard of living' has improved (changed - maybe not always for the better), shorter working week, better pay (maybe arguable), better standard of housing, cars more reliable*, etc etc.

 

* Just bought back memories - My Father would be preparing our car (Ford Zodiac, Vauxhall Cresta, Ford Zepher - depending on year) for weeks in advance of our holiday journey, checking the water, getting the oil changed, pumping up the tyres, checking the spare, making sure extra food and blankets were safely stowed in case of break down, charging the battery,checking, washing and wiping all the lights.

 

Where were we going ? - Nottingam to Skegness - a journey of 77 miles.

 

Today we jump in our cars and travel 100's of miles without a second thought.

[Athy]

 

 

What folk were happy to live with 20-30 years ago is frankly no longer acceptable. A couple looking for their first boat now will want a permanent bed, a decent sized lounge and a kitchen comparable to what they have at home and you cannot get this in a space much less than 45 foot.

 

.

Perhaps so, if we are talking about the same people, who are now 20 or 30 years older than they were then. But is this true of, for example, couples now in their 20s? At that age, "roughing it" is part of life, and maybe part of the fun.

[GlosRich]

I went soft too young- we got our first caravan when I was in my mid 20s. I'm only mid 30s now!

 

I can cope with basic amenities and relish the thought of putting some of my own design ideas into practise, but I do like a bit of privacy- I'd like beds at opposite ends of the boat so that night time toilet visits don't disturb each other more than the sound of a flush.

[Lady Muck]

Perhaps so, if we are talking about the same people, who are now 20 or 30 years older than they were then. But is this true of, for example, couples now in their 20s? At that age, "roughing it" is part of life, and maybe part of the fun.

Yep, I know scores of people living very simply on small 40-45 foot boats. Even little cabin cruisers. It depends on what you're used to.

[David Mack]

A couple looking for their first boat now will want a permanent bed, a decent sized lounge and a kitchen comparable to what they have at home and you cannot get this in a space much less than 45 foot.

That 24 ft cruiser, which my parents hired for a week, had fixed bunks - a vee bunk in the bow for the parents and two singles in the rear cabin for me and my sister. No lounge as such, but a removable table slotted in between the bunks. But the kitchen was basic, as was the loo compartment - no shower.

 

I'd like beds at opposite ends of the boat so that night time toilet visits don't disturb each other more than the sound of a flush.

Had that with the centre cockpit layout!