Bio-diesel from chip oil.

[Admiral.snelson]

I run a restaurant and live on a narrow boat. I have about 6 gallons of used chip oil per week. Does anyone here have experience turning this into fuel for my boat? Can you give me the low down on what to do?

 

Cheers

[bigste]

Do an search on google and there is lots of info. It is also quite legal.

http://www.make-biodiesel.org/

Edited June 14, 2014 by bigste

[Admiral.snelson]

Thanks, very helpful, but I was posting here as I was wondering if anyone had first hand experience of doing this and what they found.

[Tony Brooks]

I have not done it but you really need to say exactly what you mean by "turning it into fuel for my boat"

 

If you are talking about Transesterfication to produce FAME than as long a s your FAME (bio-diesel) meets BS EN14214 then you can use it just like mineral diesel but it may/will be more prone to bug growth and water absorption. Its production involves methanol, heating, a corrosive (sodium or potassium hydroxide I think, but check), washing and settling, and the disposal of waste product.

 

If you are talking about filtering and maybe diluting with something then we need to know what engine you have (DPA injector pumps will not take kindly to the result) and exactly what you intend to do re the additive and any extra equipment you intend to fit on your boat. The Broads Authority tried something similar and ran into winter problems.

 

Personally I would have thought 6 gallons a week would be barely worth transesterising, especially as I understand used oil now has a value and is being stolen from restaurants and takeaways.

[Bobbybass]

Yup...6 gallons a week is not a lot for all the effort..and a new injection system..may well outway the savings..

[Phil Ambrose]

If you use the search function you should find a fairly lenghty thread on this subject, covered it in great depth in the last year.

Phil

[kingswood]

yes we started making bio diesel for our vans at work it turned out to be a giant white elephant. after spending a fortune on equipment we needed, and going on a course to learn how to be scientists it wasted 2 days a week producing some disgusting smelling fuel,that made the vehicles run like crap I would not put it in any vehicle I owned. and now its been abandoned to a dark corner in the garage was supposed to cost about 70p a litre ended up costing about £5.00 a litre

[Graham Davis]

For 6 gallons a week you are probably better off finding one of the bulk oil recyclers to contract to take it away.

[Jerra]

I have produced a little in years gone by but my Head of Department (before I retired) has run cars on it for at least 10 years with no problems. I certainly had no problems with the LDV Convoy I ran on it.

[mattlad]

It would help to know what engine is in your boat. And how much diesel you normally use in a week.

 

Some engines tolerate alternative / poor fuels better than others so if you can give us more info we might be able to give more assistance / advice! ?

[jake_crew]

As above, the chemicasl to make it into bio are expensive - methanol at least £5 per litre.

 

You need a heated reaction tank and micron level filters etc etc.

 

Not worth it for 6 gallons.

 

You should, though, be able to sell that 6 gallons to a larger refiner ................

[c c]

A few years ago we had a BBC TV crew at our canalside cafe to record an item for a financial programme about turning our fryer oil into fuel for our boat. The final scene was me on the back of the boat with the producer trying to get me to say I would be running our engine on chip-oil. Problem was that after listening to all the experts they bought along with them to contribute to the programme, I was so hessitant in saying we would use it that it was only on the third take that he was convinced. I was not convinced that the fuss, time and cost to make it was worth the effort or that our newly restored National engine would benefit from it at all, Bookers Cash & Carry give me £2 for 20 Ltrs of used oil so I think that means your 6gals will buy you about 3 litres of nice new red diesel without all the hassle.

[bag 'o' bones]

I run a restaurant and live on a narrow boat. I have about 6 gallons of used chip oil per week. Does anyone here have experience turning this into fuel for my boat? Can you give me the low down on what to do?

 

Cheers

I'd put it in my boat (BETA) with no hesitation given the opportunity. You don't need any fancy processing. Most mechanical fuel pumps will quite happily inject chip oil as long as you run it 50/50 with diesel. Problem is with unrefined chip oil is that it contains glycerine which is a bit gloopy for some pumps particularly common rail jobbies which you don't tend to find in the average narrow boat anyway. The used stuff also contains a certain amount of water and the remains of whatever you've fried in it. You can remove the water by heating the oil in the frier for a bit longer before dumping it. As for the bits, you can make a simple filter out of denim cloth or buy a purpose made filter sock off e-bay. Will remove anything that is large enough to kill a pump.

My Sister in law has been running an older Volkswagen TDI Passat like this for a couple of years with no ill effects with 200k on the clock!

If you do give it a go you might find you'll need to change the fuel filter more often and also take precautions to avoid fuel bug if the fuel is left for a long period in the tank.

Edited June 15, 2014 by bag 'o' bones

[Paganboat]

Bio diesel is the worst for diesel bug as it grows a mould in the pipes apparently

[Tony Brooks]

I'd put it in my boat (BETA) with no hesitation given the opportunity. You don't need any fancy processing. Most mechanical fuel pumps will quite happily inject chip oil as long as you run it 50/50 with diesel. Problem is with unrefined chip oil is that it contains glycerine which is a bit gloopy for some pumps particularly common rail jobbies which you don't tend to find in the average narrow boat anyway. The used stuff also contains a certain amount of water and the remains of whatever you've fried in it. You can remove the water by heating the oil in the frier for a bit longer before dumping it. As for the bits, you can make a simple filter out of denim cloth or buy a purpose made filter sock off e-bay. Will remove anything that is large enough to kill a pump.

My Sister in law has been running an older Volkswagen TDI Passat like this for a couple of years with no ill effects with 200k on the clock!

If you do give it a go you might find you'll need to change the fuel filter more often and also take precautions to avoid fuel bug if the fuel is left for a long period in the tank.

 

It is also likely to contain animal fats that may produce more acidic and sooty combustion products.

 

With simply filtering it an diluting it you do nothing to lower the plugging point/waxing point of the vegetable oil and animal fats so can expect fuel/filter problems in cold weather - as the Broads Authority found out and told me. To overcome this fuel switching so you start and run down on pure diesel plus fuel heating is required.

 

Not all mechanical pumps will accept it. The DPA series are likely to seize or wear the rotor because of close running clearances and lubrication problems with more viscous fuel. To overcome this it is usually recommend that helical grooves be machined in the rotor shaft.

 

I expect the Passat uses a Bosch rotary pump that looks a bit like the DPA but the rotor equivalent both rotates and moves in and out. Its the in and out movement that helps the ensure adequate lubrication. This is one reason we asked about the engine. One can not, and should not, extrapolate limited experiences and apply them across the whole range of boats. This is something that often is done on this forum.

[Arthur Brown]

Some engines (probably the older ones) will simply run on chip fat in the summer, some engines (modern usually) will die quickly if not fed on EN590 diesel. Usually the issue is lubrication in the injector system. Regardless you MUST filter the oil to sub micron level before use or the engine will accumulate a potion of chips in the filters and stop working (at the most inconvenient time).

[Morat]

There's a biodiesel supplier on an A road local to me. It ran a Mk3 Golf perfectly happily despite the grim warnings I got from every mechanic I spoke to. The amount of tooth sucking and head shaking was impressive, but they all had a different reason why biodiesel would "kill the engine".

Car has long been sold, we're now running on LPG

[luctor et emergo]

There's a biodiesel supplier on an A road local to me. It ran a Mk3 Golf perfectly happily despite the grim warnings I got from every mechanic I spoke to. The amount of tooth sucking and head shaking was impressive, but they all had a different reason why biodiesel would "kill the engine".

Car has long been sold, we're now running on LPG

 

You drive a forklift??

 

[Tony Brooks]

There's a biodiesel supplier on an A road local to me. It ran a Mk3 Golf perfectly happily despite the grim warnings I got from every mechanic I spoke to. The amount of tooth sucking and head shaking was impressive, but they all had a different reason why biodiesel would "kill the engine".

Car has long been sold, we're now running on LPG

 

Apart from the hygroscopic thing and the easier development of "bug" then there is no reason why B100 (transesterfied bio-diesel to the EN I mentioned) should not run in the vast majority of engines perfectly satisfactorily. Its when we get to filtered/strained diluted ex-cooking oil that problems may occur, but then not even on every engine.

 

However please note that commercial fleets running on high or 100% bio-diesel may have their oil and filter change intervals reduced if warranty is to be maintained. It also tends to "clean" normal diesel gums and varnishes from the surfaces of the fuel system and tank. this may require a period of more frequent filter replacement.

 

Once again I suspect the Mk 3 Golf used the Bosch rotary pump as I described in my last post but with proper EN whatever biofuel lubrication should not be a problem.

 

As far as I am concerned there is a lot of misinformation around. The enthusiasts seem to ignore potential problems while others who should know better seem to make things up to suit their stance.

 

As as far as I am concerned transesterfied bio to that EN will be fine in virtually all engines providing you recognize the potential problems and guard against them. Filtered/strained veg oil. diluted or not, will work in many engines during the warmer months but using in the winter is asking for problems unless extra equipment is added to the engine and even then some pump designs may object.

[Arthur Brown]

If anyone has a need for it, I have a friend who can supply WVO for pence, BUT you have to take a tanker load.

[Roustabout]

This is a subject that has been extensively covered within the Transit Forums. With a Ford Transit, the Bosch pump was happy but the Lucas pump suffered from the rubber seals "melting". Ideally, an inline fuel heater is fitted close to the pump. Where possible, fit a separate tank for Reclaimed veg oil with ball-valves to switch between WVO and "normal" diesel. WVO should be filtered to 10 microns or better. IIRC the personal allowance before fuel-duty becomes payable was 2,500ltrs yearly, records are required.

There was one person who made regular trips from the SE to Mancs, started on diesel to drive bout 5-10 miles where he would pull over to pour enough WVO to ALMOST complete his journey. Just before arrival he would pull-over again, (by this time he was almost empty) and take-on a gallon or two of real diesel to "work through" before journeys end so that there was "regular" diesel to enable an easier start for the journey home. The return journey was the same as before. A bit of faffing about but the guy saved a fortune in fuel.

Has anyone noticed that the price of veg/sunflower/palm oil in the shops is comparable to diesel pump prices ? During the price hikes a few years ago they got fed-up collecting all the empty oil bottles scattered around their car-parks lol. (the diesel engine was originally made to run on palm-oil)

[Roustabout]

For anyone that already knows an engine that will be happy to accept Recycled Veg Oil here's a useful link to an East Anglian Co that can supply equipment. They claim that their 50ltr model will turn over the finished product in 6hrs wih little attention. (I have NO personal or commercial interests in this Co)

http://www.fenlandbiodieselprocessors.com/

 

ETA the 50ltr model is priced at £1400

Edited June 17, 2014 by Roustabout

[c c]

For anyone that already knows an engine that will be happy to accept Recycled Veg Oil here's a useful link to an East Anglian Co that can supply equipment. They claim that their 50ltr model will turn over the finished product in 6hrs wih little attention. (I have NO personal or commercial interests in this Co)

http://www.fenlandbiodieselprocessors.com/

 

ETA the 50ltr model is priced at £1400

Now add the cost of filters, additives, containers and the cost of buying the used oil (if you don't have a business that produces it and even then you lose the price you could get for it) plus of course, you are going to volunteer the tax due, aren't you, and how many years buying red diesel for your boat would it take to reach that overall cost?

[Admiral.snelson]

Ok so its an Isuzu 48hp marine diesel. I have no accurate way of telling how much diesel I use per month as I filled her up in April 2013 (150l) I live on the boat and run the engine everyday and I still have about a 1/3rd of a tank. So its pretty efficient. So unless used oil fuel is a lot less efficient than diesel 6 gallons (27 litres) seems like quite a lot. Am I wrong?

[Jerra]

Now add the cost of filters, additives, containers and the cost of buying the used oil (if you don't have a business that produces it and even then you lose the price you could get for it) plus of course, you are going to volunteer the tax due, aren't you, and how many years buying red diesel for your boat would it take to reach that overall cost?

When I was producing biodiesel oil was given away as they were glad to get rid of it. Unless you produce more than (IIRC) 2,000L per year no tax is due That may have changed but I doubt it.

 

EDIT: Just checked 2,500L

Edited June 17, 2014 by Jerra