What to look for on a project boat?

[Zig Zag]

Hi all,

 

On my way to look at our first narrow boat, very excited but completely new to all of this so wonder if somebody would give us some help.

 

Iv looked through the threads which are full of helpful advice but the boat we are going to look at is going to be a complete project for us to do up. The seller states it needs some tlc. We are happy to do any form of cosmetic work as we are going to re fit it but my only worry is being so new to this is that we won't pick up on something that is seriously wrong with it.

 

Obviously we will get a survey done, but is there any advice on things to look for ourselves before the survey, in case we need to rule it out before?

 

Thanks guys! Sorry if this has been covered before (I'm guessing it has) I'm sure this forum is going to be a big help in the future!

[Zig Zag]

Sorry meant to mention that the boat is currently being stored out of water and I'm sure it's due to be blacked. Thanks.

[RLWP]

Well, the proper way to approach a project boat is to use your extensive knowledge and experience of boats, their features and problems and use this to assess every part of it. You will then be able to recognise the good and bad parts, decide what is acceptable, what can be repaired and what needs replacing. Armed with this, you'll have an idea of what it is going to cost you in terms of both time and money, and then be able to negotiate a proper price, knowing when it becomes uneconomic and when to walk away

 

In your case, you are over a barrel, so take along someone who can do all of the stuff above for you

 

Richard

[Paul C]

completely new to all of this

 

 

 

 

 

Project boat probably isn't the best choice as a first boat then, it normally means the interior will need a complete refit and there's issues with the hull ie overplating or replating needed. And the engine will be an unknown and might need expensive work too. If its a small boat, then it might be a quicker job than a big boat but to do it properly will cost £££.

 

A better start if you're good at DIY and have a lot of spare time, is to start with a sailaway.

[RLWP]

A better start if you're good at DIY and have a lot of spare time, is to start with a sailaway.

 

Because you'll have loads of experience of how to design and lay out a boat, specify systems and all that from working on boats?

 

Richard

[matty40s]

Ask for it not to be blacked before the survey.

 

The boat may have been out of the water for other reasons than just to save on licence fees.

Edited May 11, 2014 by matty40s

[Paul C]

 

Because you'll have loads of experience of how to design and lay out a boat, specify systems and all that from working on boats?

 

Richard

 

Because it won't sink.

[RLWP]

 

Because it won't sink.

 

Now, that's a very good point. Also, the engine will probably work

 

Richard

[Paul C]

Let's face it, a "first" attempt at a DIY refit, either on a project boat or a sailaway, is going to be a dog's breakfast and won't look or be great except if its exceptionally well planned and executed; or its modified again and again over time and improved upon. I could have said just spend a bit more on a better secondhand boat, but that would be too boring....

[RLWP]

I could have said just spend a bit more on a better secondhand boat, but that would be too boring....

 

I am boring too. That would be my suggestion

 

Richard

[Zig Zag]

"Let's face it" You have no idea of my capabilities and standard of work. Just because I don't know what to look for in the structure of the boat has no relevance to my standard of finishing work. Just cuz your first attempt may look like a "dogs breakfast" doesn't mean all of ours would.

[RLWP]

So, what do you know about boats then?

 

I'm not trying to be unpleasant, and I would strongly suggest you take along someone who knows what they are looking at. You may well find someone on the forum who will help you

 

You're in Essex, which is too far away for me

 

Richard

[Paul C]

"Let's face it" You have no idea of my capabilities and standard of work. Just because I don't know what to look for in the structure of the boat has no relevance to my standard of finishing work. Just cuz your first attempt may look like a "dogs breakfast" doesn't mean all of ours would.

 

 

I know I don't! Which is why I said:

 

except if its exceptionally well planned and executed;

 

So, don't take offence. But if you don't know about boats, and haven't spend significant time in them, you'll be doing a lot of research or thinking things through from first principles to find out how stuff is done - things which established builders have learnt over the years, so their current (or past recent) builds are often a Mk3 or Mk4 in terms of lessons learnt and small details made to make things easier to maintain, better to live with or more reliable.

[Zig Zag]

Boats? I'd be the first to admit not so much, hence joining the forum in the first place.

 

Cosmetics and re fitting? Decoration, plumbing, electrics, joinery. A lot.

 

I am perfectly aware that stuff is done differently on a boat than a house but that's what I'm willing to learn as I go along.

My main concern was buying something that was structurally unsound and I know a survey would pick this up but was hoping for some tips incase I could rule it out before the survey.

[Paul C]

Price would be a big tip. If it looks too good a price to be true....it probably is...

Another tip would be to ask, "has the boat ever had a previous buyer interested, who had a survey done, then subsequently pulled out?". Or, "why is the boat for sale?".

 

Both the above can be done over the phone and would save yourself a journey to see the boat.

 

But if you looked at a boat, a simple test with a light hammer on the hull and listening to the ring it makes, would reveal differences in thickness in different areas. And if you can access the bilge area in the cabin (eg removeable floor section) then a large amount of rust here is a bad thing. Other than that, the only proper way is to lift it out the water and have an experienced surveyer look at it, he'll probably use an ultrasound machine to determine the thicknesses, know the weak areas on boats in general and that hull manufacturer or style in particular.

[Zig Zag]

Thank you that's a big help. Just arrived to look at the boat.

[Traveller]

Rust in the bilges is never a good thing but is it really avoidable, especially in older boats? Most boats will suffer from condensation, water leaks, shower leaks, leaky windows etc over time and that will allow water into the bilges. Given the way narrowboats are fitted out it is difficult if not impossible to get to all the bilges so the result is damp/wet bilges and areas that take an age to dry out - under ballast for example. Sure there may be areas of the bilge that can be accessed but those are relatively easy to keep clean and painted. That, though, still leaves the hidden areas.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Traveller

[starman]

I've done major restoration work on several house inc wiring, plumbing, ch etc so I thought refitting a fire damaged nb would take six months. It took over two years! And cost a lot more than planned. There are a whole lot of new skills and techniques to learn

A good hull survey is essential for starters and a sensible estimate of replating costs. Insulation in older boats can be iffy and short of a total strip out hard to improve.

Personally I'd be looking for a basically sound boat that I could haggle the price on then use your skills to make improvements in specific areas as you go along.

Something described as a 'project' smacks of money pit to me.

[Arthur Brown]

Do you actually LIKE the shape of the boat?

What does your surveyor tell you about the state of the structure, Negotiate price from a position of informed wisdom.

 

All that a boat NEEDS is a sound hull OK extend that to the steelwork. After that make an estimate of the cost and triple it and make an estimate of the time taken and quadruple it -then double both of them again

 

Far better to buy a boat that you like and is totally habitable ready for use

[Lady Muck]

If its either of the two I saw on Apollo Duck I would run a mile. I know for sure that one of them needs a full overplate and the other one looks worrying to me as well.

Just be warned that 'project' can often mean knackered. People often sell these boats because they are beyond economical repair. For instance I know a new boater that bought one where the hull is beyond repair (no good metal to overplate to) and another where it has cost £15k in welding.

Is there someone who knows boats who could advise you?

Have you considered a new sailaway instead? You say you are competent when it comes to DIY. Some of the projects I've seen for sale are not that much cheaper than buying a new hull. Infact once you've forked out for welding/repairs to make good a project boat, then the sailaway will most likely be cheaper. Is it not better to not throw good money after bad, start with something new, no dark secrets. If you're good at DIY your first boat could end up pretty decent. I know newbies who did this and their boats are great!

It will take far less time too as you will not be 'making good' and ripping out and replacing, before you can fit out.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Lady Muck

[Guest]

Let's face it, a "first" attempt at a DIY refit, either on a project boat or a sailaway, is going to be a dog's breakfast and won't look or be great except if its exceptionally well planned and executed; or its modified again and again over time and improved upon. I could have said just spend a bit more on a better secondhand boat, but that would be too boring....

Really? I have seen many amateur"first attempts" that have been lovely. I know a small handful who even built their own shells to a good standard. I would say it might be easy to produce a dog's breakfast, but most people seem capable of producing reasonable results. It aint rocket science.

I have renovated an elderly NB to a good standard (12 years ago now) and fitted out a sailaway (nearly 10 years ago.) They are both chugging along the cut still without having to start again.

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

I think, that if you are set on the 'Project Boat' idea (and there is nothing wrong with that) The Three main things to be very mindful of is -

1, Money

2, Time

3, More Of the above.

 

I like many other members have done a few Self Fit outs, and or Project boats, & loved doing them. Would I do one again,now,

No !. I want to enjoy Cruising.

But good luck. & as I've suggested many times to people before one of the best tools in your arsenal will be access to this Fourm (IMO).

Edited May 11, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[Guest]

I think, that if you are set on the 'Project Boat' idea (and there is nothing wrong with that) The Three main things to be very mindful of is -

1, Money

2, Time

3, More Of the above.

 

I like many other members have done a few Self Fit outs, and or Project boats, & loved doing them. Would I do one again,now,

No !. I want to enjoy Cruising.

But good luck. & as I've suggested many times to people before one of the best tools in your arsenal will be access to this Fourm (IMO).

Agreed!

 

I also agree about asking on this forum. I learned most stuff on here these past 12 years. This book too:

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Narrowboat-Builders-Book-Graham-Booth/dp/1870002717

[Zig Zag]

Thanks for all advise.

 

Not best of days viewing. yeah it was on apollduck. And as I say I'm no boat expert, but I'm guessing when you look down by the floor and you see a hole that there's day light through it, that's not a good sign! Grrrrr.

 

Nah was a joke really, needs to be scraped. after looking at a few "project" boats today, I think "project" is not what I was thinking off.

I need to find something that's sound and has a good hull, then if it's dated and not what we want inside, fine I'll do my thing.

Think project in the narrow boat world was different then I had in mind.

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

The annoying thing is, you could have viewd it, & found it to be Brilliant !. It really is the luck of the draw, and down to interpretation of the word 'Project'.

Keep looking, and goog luck.

 

BTW have you looked on the For Sale & Wanted board in here !, There was a Couple of lovely NBs a few month ago, don't know about now. But worth a peek back through the pages, and it's arguably better to buy off of a forum, from an established member, as you can cheack out the History via the posts made !. (IMO)

Edited May 11, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2