BWML - why all the bad press

[Ten]

 

And about time too.

 

Yes, they are a company owned by CRT. CRT needs all the money it can get.

 

MtB

 

 

 

(Edit to correct a grammatical error before the OP gets on my case!)

I'm glad we agree on something

[MtB]

I'm glad we agree on something

 

What was that then?

 

Either you support MWML maximising their income potential at the expense of boaters, or you don't. Which is it? Make your mind up!

 

MtB

[Ten]

 

Are you 'complaining', or saying they are just charging 'London Market Rates'

 

Companies are in business to make profit - I know it is viewed as a dirty word by some.

At the end of the day whatever money BWML makes it either directly, or indirectly, goes into C&RT coffers.

 

I dont think that their T&C's differ from many other marinas around the country.

 

I'm not complaining. No at all. I'm trying to find an explanation to why some would. I tried to make my point clear though that for me it's taken on the chin. I have been in London too long to complain about things like that.

[magnetman]

A pretty boring 2 bed flat overlooking Limehouse Lock is £20,000 a year to rent.

 

£9500 a year for a mooring there is not expensive.

[Cheshire cat]

Flipping heck!. What happened to innocent until proven guilty. Read the first page of comments again and reflect. Talk about wolves hunting in packs.

 

I think the Pilings Marina thread has increased the desire for blood.

 

As far as I can see the guy (novice) is worried that they may have made a poor choice of berth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited to tone down the language. No wish to be associated with the troll

Edited April 23, 2014 by Cheshire cat

[RichardN]

Until a few weeks ago we had a BWML grade 2 mooring at Limehouse, never ever thought we would move. Local staff are nearly all absolutely excellent but I can't say the same about the BWML senior management. Limehouse moorings were like gold dust, the marina was always full. We have walked as have others, I see that BWML are now advertising 16 empty berths in Limehouse which I think says it all.

 

We have stayed in a few marinas on our travels. The BWML marina in Newark and Limehouse were always our favourites as the managers there seemed to create a good atmosphere. They were also full unlike say Sawley. I don't know how those poor managers can do anything now with BWML Management getting things so badly wrong.

 

Interestingly we stopped off at the new-ish Grove Lock Marina on the GU today for fuel and a pump out. Really nice people, excellent service. I think their prices are top end for the area but you can see that the service is working - that marina is full with a waiting list.

[MtB]

We have walked as have others, I see that BWML are now advertising 16 empty berths in Limehouse which I think says it all.

 

I disagree. It tells us nothing.

 

Can you explain and give some detail as to why there are 16 empty berths please?

 

Many thanks.

 

MtB

[RichardN]

Of course it does. Think about it, a marina which you could not even get onto the waiting list for suddenly finds people leaving, 9 alone on our pier. That must tell you something.

 

Too late at night to write a more detailed reply, here are a few bullet points

 

* Changes in terms and conditions

* New policy on berth definitions. In our case we are grade 2 and normally away when the clocks change and come back when the clocks change back. When we come back we won't be allowed to access our berth without prior approval. Before the new fob system was introduced I asked what happens if an alarm goes off on my boat one evening (eg low battery after another fault on the pier electrics), how do I get to my boat? If I am in town and have a few spare minutes then I pop in and check my boat but how as not practical to get prior approval? We cruise in the winter, how? We went out earlier this year on a 6am tide so stayed on the boat the night before, why should I move to the wall when I am paying more then anywhere else on the canal network for a mooring? Response was: Ah we have not thought of those issues and then did nothing before introducing the new policy.

* Mooring price increase declared as 2%, went up by 5% but ...

* Letter sent to us saying that the moorings price will virtually double from the 1st April as all grades of mooring will be charged at the same rate as full residential

* Price increases as above but level of service going down. Lots of maintenance issues simply not being resolved - the local team are not being given the funding. Worse was a dangerous handrail not being repaired for months on end, promises made that the Lock Contractor would repair it yet when I asked them about it they said they knew nothing, had not been asked. The Berth Holders Association have a big list, they are actually considering a new tack of feeding BWML the list one item at a time to see if that gets something done yet this is the most expensive marina on the canal network.

* Oh and if you write a difficult to answer email you don't get a reply.

 

I must stress again, I really liked the local team, us leaving is in no way a criticism of them. They have been fantastic, letting us into the lock late at night or early in the morning, always helpful, we will miss them.

 

We tend to do at least 1000 miles and locks every summer but always got back to our moorings at clock change. It is quite refreshing to know that this year we don't have to? We have been up the HNC and the Chesterfield but not managed to get any further north. Perhaps this year? May be over winter somewhere at the north end of the network? Or we come back and join the people moored in London ....

 

Edit for typos. Have had 3 great days cruising and now past my bed time

Edited April 22, 2014 by RichardN

[kevinl]

Yes, they are a company owned by CRT. CRT needs all the money it can get.

 

MtB

So just put the boat licence fees up for everyone if CRT "needs all the money it can get", why pick on people in BWML marinas. Soft target or anyone but me?

I answer to the OP it's bad marinas that get bad press, if BWML run bad marinas they get bad press. Maybe in the private sector bad mangers get hoofed (although Pillings Lock would go some way to disproving that) or the business fails. Bad press means disatisified customers, maybe that's the issue that needs addressing why aren't your customers happy?

K

[George94]

 

I remember that debate, but chose not to get involved. However. I do sometimes wish that people would stop referring to CaRT as a charity within the same context as organizations like Shelter, RNIB, Age Concern, etc. who were set up by volunteers, specifically to address social and medical issues experienced by sectors of the community.

 

CaRT is not a charity in the conventional sense, but a Trust, in other words, a "Not for Profit Organization" without a membership, which is a clearly defined catagory within the Voluntarty sector. Being non profit making entitles CaRT to be registered as a Charitable trust under the Charity Commission regulations, enabling them to enjoy certain legal and finacial advantages which would otherwise not be accessible, which is why I assume they chose to register.

 

Being a Trust may explain why CaRT are reducing their directly employed staff and using contractors and Volunteers, as one of the conditions of being a Trust is that they are unlikely to employ a sigificant number of staff. However another condition is that they do not carry out any kind of business, which calls into question their management of a property folio!!

 

Part of the problem of course is that CaRT started out almost promoting themselves as a Charity in the conventional sense which, in my view, was an ill informed and unwise approach. The decision to do so was presumably made by the transferred Management of BW who, as far as I am aware had little, or no, knowledge or experience of the Voluntary sector, but having done so, they will now have to live with the consequences of that approach for a long time.

 

There is plenty of evidence of CaRT's ineptitude in the recruitment, support and management of volunteers at all levels of management, which reflects their inexperience in this field, but this post is already too long to go into that.

 

CART is a charity, David. A charitable trust is a charity. The word "charity" doesn't mean or imply that the operation is staffed entirely by volunteers.

 

If it's registered with the Charity Commission, it's a charity.

 

Every significant organisation has to protect its owners or managers or staff from personal liability if things go wrong. CART is actually a company registered at Companies House, but unlike most companies it doesn't have shareholders and it is not permitted to distribute its profits. Hence it's not really a trust in the normal sense of the word, but it calls itself a trust (and its directors trustees) because it ACTS like a trust.

 

So, it's a company, not a trust, but it IS charitable and therefore a charity.

 

ETA: Being a charity has nothing whatever to do with how many people they choose employ. Using contractors is presumably intended to give them more flexibility or lower costs.

 

There is nothing to stop them running a business. They just can't distribute the profits.

 

And as for their alleged ineptitude at managing volunteers, give them a chance. They haven't been at it for very long.

Edited April 22, 2014 by George94

[MtB]

 

CART is a charity, David. A charitable trust is a charity. The word "charity" doesn't mean or imply that the operation is staffed entirely by volunteers.

 

If it's registered with the Charity Commission, it's a charity.

 

Every significant organisation has to protect its owners or managers or staff from personal liability if things go wrong. CART is actually a company registered at Companies House, but unlike most companies it doesn't have shareholders and it is not permitted to distribute its profits. Hence it's not really a trust in the normal sense of the word, but it calls itself a trust (and its directors trustees) because it ACTS like a trust.

 

So, it's a company, not a trust, but it IS charitable and therefore a charity.

 

 

Looks like it's Groundhog day - again!

 

CRT is a charitable trust, not a charity. Check Nigel Moore's recent posts on the subject...

 

 

 

MtB

[Alan de Enfield]

Of course it does. Think about it, a marina which you could not even get onto the waiting list for suddenly finds people leaving, 9 alone on our pier. That must tell you something.

 

Too late at night to write a more detailed reply, here are a few bullet points

 

* Changes in terms and conditions

* New policy on berth definitions. In our case we are grade 2 and normally away when the clocks change and come back when the clocks change back. When we come back we won't be allowed to access our berth without prior approval. Before the new fob system was introduced I asked what happens if an alarm goes off on my boat one evening (eg low battery after another fault on the pier electrics), how do I get to my boat? If I am in town and have a few spare minutes then I pop in and check my boat but how as not practical to get prior approval? We cruise in the winter, how? We went out earlier this year on a 6am tide so stayed on the boat the night before, why should I move to the wall when I am paying more then anywhere else on the canal network for a mooring? Response was: Ah we have not thought of those issues and then did nothing before introducing the new policy.

 

 

How strange - the T&C's I received from BWML seen to be the diametric opposite of those you have

 

There is no longer (from 1st April) Residential, Grade 1, Grade 2, Grade 3 moorings - there is now only Residential and Leisure. Leisure grants you 24/7 access to your boat and allows you to 'live' on board Summer & Winter providing you have evidence that you pay council tax on a house (somewhere).

 

I would have thought that BWML would have had a standard set of T&C's applicable to all of their marinas, rather than seperate ones for each.

 

Seems strange !

[RichardN]

Writing off a touch screen not a keypad so please firgive typos.

 

That T&Cs bit confused me. There is a set of T&Cs on the web site and a set we were sent in March. They differ. Our April renewal was to be on grade 2 terms but Derek Newton's letter set out what you are saying but also included berth definitions which painted a different picture. The letter told us that our mooring cost would go up to just under £10,000 which was not what the (chronologically later) invoice said. Someone has commented on how bad bwml management are with their crayons, so I wrote to the customer service manager asking for a bit of clarity and got no response. I chased for a reply, no response.

 

Outside of these issues, they have decided to get rid of a large chunk of their visitor moorings. What is left will cost for our length £63 a night. Now to me a marina is where you park in between journeys. Limehouse's position also means that it can or rather could entertain visitors from all sorts of locations - look on their website what they now say about visitors. Yet having visiting boats and some rather smart yachts gives the marina character and is a benefit to the area. Turning it into a static caravan park is quite wrong imho. The canal and rivers system again in my opinion should be for boats to move on, if it turns into a static caravan park it will die.

[John V]

seeing the previous post's mention of losing visitors moorings, has this reduced the lock waiting moorings? Last year when I came through there wasn't a lot of spare capacity.

[David Schweizer]

 

CART is a charity, David. A charitable trust is a charity. The word "charity" doesn't mean or imply that the operation is staffed entirely by volunteers.

 

If it's registered with the Charity Commission, it's a charity.

 

Every significant organisation has to protect its owners or managers or staff from personal liability if things go wrong. CART is actually a company registered at Companies House, but unlike most companies it doesn't have shareholders and it is not permitted to distribute its profits. Hence it's not really a trust in the normal sense of the word, but it calls itself a trust (and its directors trustees) because it ACTS like a trust.

 

So, it's a company, not a trust, but it IS charitable and therefore a charity.

 

ETA: Being a charity has nothing whatever to do with how many people they choose employ. Using contractors is presumably intended to give them more flexibility or lower costs.

 

There is nothing to stop them running a business. They just can't distribute the profits.

 

And as for their alleged ineptitude at managing volunteers, give them a chance. They haven't been at it for very long.

 

As CaRT is listed as a Limited Company and does not have a membership, It must be registered as a Charitable Company, rather than a Unincorporated Charitable Association or Charitable Trust, so in one sense you are correct, Being a Charitable Company means that unlike conventional Charities, it's Trustees do not bear vicarious liability. However, it does not make it a Charity in the normaly accepted sense, even if it seeks to promote itself as if it were a conventional Charity.

 

Edited :- to correct an error

Edited April 23, 2014 by David Schweizer

[George94]

 

As CaRT is listed as a Limited Company and does not have a membership, It must be registered as a Charitable Company, rather than a Unincorporated Charitable Association or Charitable Trust, so in one sense you are correct, Being a Charitable Company means that unlike conventional Charities, it's Trustees do not bear vicarious liability. However, it does not make it a Charity in the normaly accepted sense, even if it seeks to promote itself as if it were a conventional Charity.

 

Edited :- to correct an error

 

It is a registered charity. That means it is a charity. Charities come in several forms, but if they are registered by the Charity Commission, they are a charity.

 

No ifs and buts about it. CART is a charity under the law of this realm, and that is all that counts.

[magnetman]

t. Are they?

Sorry that was messed up

 

I meant "Limehouse visitor moorings on the wall are 24h for the lock, they aren't being rented out .. are they?"

[David Schweizer]

 

It is a registered charity. That means it is a charity. Charities come in several forms, but if they are registered by the Charity Commission, they are a charity.

 

No ifs and buts about it. CART is a charity under the law of this realm, and that is all that counts.

 

That all sounds very pompous. you seem determined to pick a fight.

 

Where have I said that CaRT is not a charity?

[Alan de Enfield]

Yes C&RT is a Charity but not one of those that seeks to protect endangered species, offer medical care after Earthquakes or Tornado's, it does not seek to re-home people in war-torn areas, it does not offer food and shelter for abandoned animals and it certainly does not offer housing or social services to canal dwellers who have come upon 'hard times'.

 

Being a Charity purely means that they get to keep more of the money given to them

 

They benefit from a number of financial advantages, including exemptions from:

• income or corporation tax
• capital gains tax
• stamp duty
• inheritance tax on gifts made in wills

Additionally, charities pay no more than 20% of normal business rates on occupied buildings and can get special VAT treatment in some circumstances.

[Hawkmoth]

Of course it does. Think about it, a marina which you could not even get onto the waiting list for suddenly finds people leaving, 9 alone on our pier. That must tell you something.

 

Too late at night to write a more detailed reply, here are a few bullet points

 

* Changes in terms and conditions

* New policy on berth definitions. In our case we are grade 2 and normally away when the clocks change and come back when the clocks change back. When we come back we won't be allowed to access our berth without prior approval. Before the new fob system was introduced I asked what happens if an alarm goes off on my boat one evening (eg low battery after another fault on the pier electrics), how do I get to my boat? If I am in town and have a few spare minutes then I pop in and check my boat but how as not practical to get prior approval? We cruise in the winter, how? We went out earlier this year on a 6am tide so stayed on the boat the night before, why should I move to the wall when I am paying more then anywhere else on the canal network for a mooring? Response was: Ah we have not thought of those issues and then did nothing before introducing the new policy.

* Mooring price increase declared as 2%, went up by 5% but ...

* Letter sent to us saying that the moorings price will virtually double from the 1st April as all grades of mooring will be charged at the same rate as full residential

* Price increases as above but level of service going down. Lots of maintenance issues simply not being resolved - the local team are not being given the funding. Worse was a dangerous handrail not being repaired for months on end, promises made that the Lock Contractor would repair it yet when I asked them about it they said they knew nothing, had not been asked. The Berth Holders Association have a big list, they are actually considering a new tack of feeding BWML the list one item at a time to see if that gets something done yet this is the most expensive marina on the canal network.

* Oh and if you write a difficult to answer email you don't get a reply.

 

I must stress again, I really liked the local team, us leaving is in no way a criticism of them. They have been fantastic, letting us into the lock late at night or early in the morning, always helpful, we will miss them.

 

We tend to do at least 1000 miles and locks every summer but always got back to our moorings at clock change. It is quite refreshing to know that this year we don't have to? We have been up the HNC and the Chesterfield but not managed to get any further north. Perhaps this year? May be over winter somewhere at the north end of the network? Or we come back and join the people moored in London ....

 

Edit for typos. Have had 3 great days cruising and now past my bed time

I think you've made your point very well.

Our experience with both BW and lately C&RT has always been good, specially the ground staff. However some of the stories I've read on here do paint a different picture.

Bob

[RichardN]

seeing the previous post's mention of losing visitors moorings, has this reduced the lock waiting moorings? Last year when I came through there wasn't a lot of spare capacity.

 

Over the years there have been successive changes at Limehouse.

 

When we first came to Limehouse you could moor up on the north wall as that was classed as "towpath". That became a "no mooring" area, none of the reasons quoted made sense but all academic now as there is now a pontoon on that side which was intended for commercial use during and I thought after Sports Day. I think it was intended for more than Water Chariots but that may be from something that one of the BWML Directors once said so treat that with caution. Either way no free mooring there for visitors.

 

On the east side there was a section of 14 day moorings before the lock moorings. That became 24 hour, no return within 7 days and well enforced mainly because there was trouble with a load of abusive pee-takers. Since then it has been relatively easy to find a mooring on the wall unless the SPCC or SBC were going out to play but I am not sure what will happen in the near future, see below. If you want to stay longer then you need to pay £25 per night though if you are doing something interesting like a cruise down to the barrier one day and then a cruise to Teddington the next then it is worth talking respectfully to the people in the office.

 

Inside the marina there were always a few visitor moorings available on the outside of the pontoon where the pump out is. They are still there but cost £3.50 a metre for 24 hours, ie £63 if you are 60 foot long. Power is extra.

 

There used to be moorings inside the marina kept for BWML Customers from other marinas, visitors and winter moorers. We were told last Autumn by BMWL that they had successfully sold then off as permanent berths so no more visitor moorings in the marina apart from the the outside of the pontoon. Visiting clubs are being told go away - see http://www.bwml.co.uk/marinas/limehouse_marina/news/club_bookings_at_limehouse_marina

 

Previously if visitors came from outside then they had the choice of a marina berth for I think £35 a night (can't remember the exact figure) or staying on the wall for £25 plus the cost of a 24 hour CRT licence say £10 to £15. A lot of visitors would go for the marina mooring as it was slightly cheaper and you got the marina facilities. Now with perhaps only 3 visitor berths available for silly money then I can see more people cottoning on and using the wall for mooring rather than trying for a visitor berth. Useful as CRT get a nice cut with 24 hour licences. If Limehouse does not succeed in putting off visitors coming in via the tidal Thames then I suspect that demand for moorings on the wall will mean that they will not be as readily available as they were, that spare capacity that you mention could be taken up.

[MtB]

I'd happily take a mooring at Limehouse if I wanted a central London base. They look like excellent value for money compared to say renting a flat, even taking into account all the pettiness RichardN says might come my way from the management.

 

 

MtB

[John V]

thanks for that RicharN.....I think I might try using Bow locks as my entry next time (my home mooring for both boats is on PLA waters)

[jenlyn]

Well, the new MD for BWML has a thing about voles, and £25.

The next year will be interesting.....

[George94]

 

That all sounds very pompous. you seem determined to pick a fight.

 

Where have I said that CaRT is not a charity?

 

Post 45 - "CaRT is not a charity in the conventional sense, but a Trust,"

 

Post 65 - "However, it does not make it a Charity in the normaly [sic] accepted sense, even if it seeks to promote itself as if it were a conventional Charity."

 

I have no idea why you think CART isn't a charity in the "normal" or "conventional" sense, but it IS a charity in the only sense that matters - that it is recognised as such by the Charity Commission.

 

Not trying to pick a fight, but you are not the only person on here who seems to be ignorant of what a charity is, and I thought I would clarify matters for anybody who might have been confused by misleading statements on the subject.