selling a part fitted sailaway

[jaynienben]

Hi all, this has probably been covered many times but i cant find the answers i need. We bought a sailaway in 2011 that had been on land and never been launched. When we bought the boat, through a supposedly reputable marina, we were given no paperwork apart from the bill of sale . when we launched the boat in 2012 the marina organised a BSS certificate and we also licenced the narrowboat. We are now having to sell the boat due to medical reasons and we have someone who really wants her. We have not finished the fit out but we have opened a proper can of worms as quite rightly the buyer is asking for an anexe 3a. Now when we bought the boat through the marina we were never told the ins and outs of RCDs or Annexe 3as or anything relating to these rules and regulations. The original builders were Liverpool boats who have been taken over by Collingwood, and they do not have any relevant documentation for this boat. I have phoned the canal and river trust and the boat is legally licensed and the BSS is legal too. We really need to sell the boat and the buyer is helping all he can to resolve this he loves the boat. Where do we go from here any advice is most welcome.

[Alan de Enfield]

Said in jest but there may be some truth in it :

 

Sell the 'mop' for £xx,xxx and give the boat as a free gift. It might work ?

[Greedyheron]

I looked at buying a boat without an rcd within the 5 year period- I didn't in the end but I did speak to a surveyor who assists with the rcd requirements. He told me that he could survey the boat to check whether it was compliant and advise on works needed to get it up to scratch. So that may be a possible route- depending on how much work needed doing -that might cost a fair bit though. I checked with an insurer at the time- they wouldn't insure a boat without rcd within the 5year period. I can't remember surveyors name now, he was really helpful though- somewhere in oxford I think but I guess there are likely a few surveyors about that can provide a similar service.

[John Williamson 1955]

I found this:-"Evidence of compliance will be found on the plaque provided by the boat builder which will, amongst other things, give a HIN/CIN (Hull/Craft Identification Number). This is a 14-digit number containing the manufacturer's code, year of build and model year. There should be a paper document as well - often found in the back of the owner's manual - whose details should agree with the plaque -and a list of the standards or equivalences used to achieve compliance. The builder's invoice and/or certificate may also give the HIN. The CE mark must be on the plaque as well."

 

On a website which suggests that if the plaque is present, then the paper copy is only optional. If there is no plaque, then the person or entity you bought her from was possibly breaking the law. There is an exemption for home built boats, but they are not allowed to be sold until they are 5 years old. I could not find a reference stating whether the 5 years starts when the first tool is picked up or the vessel is completed and offered for its first BSS check.

[RLWP]

I found this:-"Evidence of compliance will be found on the plaque provided by the boat builder which will, amongst other things, give a HIN/CIN (Hull/Craft Identification Number). This is a 14-digit number containing the manufacturer's code, year of build and model year. There should be a paper document as well - often found in the back of the owner's manual - whose details should agree with the plaque -and a list of the standards or equivalences used to achieve compliance. The builder's invoice and/or certificate may also give the HIN. The CE mark must be on the plaque as well."

 

On a website which suggests that if the plaque is present, then the paper copy is only optional. If there is no plaque, then the person or entity you bought her from was possibly breaking the law. There is an exemption for home built boats, but they are not allowed to be sold until they are 5 years old. I could not find a reference stating whether the 5 years starts when the first tool is picked up or the vessel is completed and offered for its first BSS check.

Their problem is that this now counts as a home built boat

 

Richard

[jaynienben]

thanks for the info, i have found a HIN but it is nothing like the long digits it needs to be, I have checked with the boat builders and they do not have the records as they do not go back that far. apparently i need a annex15a which covers the four years after the annex 3a but again this is information i have only just found out. It looks like we have been sold an "illegal" boat by the brokers. I am going to check my insurance policy to see if we have legal cover as as some have pointed out it should not have been sold to me in the first place without the correct paperwork, surely the brokers can be held accountable?. We are gutted

[MtB]

I think you are up a gum tree without a paddle on this. Unless you can get an Annex 3a from the builder, you can't progress to RCD certifying the boat. The builder has gone bust so you can't get one.

 

The main ray of light is that there are plenty of people out there who don't give a stuff about RCD and will buy a boat without one. This is your (reduced) sales market. If you explain this to your enthisuastic buyer, he may find that, on reflection, he isn't so fussed about the RCD after all, and will buy the boat anyway.

 

MtB

 

 

 

(Eidt to clarify my last sentence.)

Edited January 28, 2014 by Mike the Boilerman

[Ally]

The paperwork should be traceable somewhere. I think such details have to be kept for 6(?) Years after build, minimum. They may be archived but someone at collingwood should be able to point at them.

[jaynienben]

thanks i have tried collingwood they say they haven't got the records it looks like we have been duped on the age of the boat as well. How can people get away with this especially narrowboat brokers? who are you supposed to trust if not them !!!

[Paul C]

Yeah possibly contact a solicitor and look at suing the seller/broker of the boat, since they are at fault here. And you now can't offer the boat for sale. Legally, you're basically obliged not to bring it on the market for 5 years after completion (I think?) or something like that, so if you don't recover some money from the original seller, you're going to be out of pocket. The alternative is to try find a buyer who isn't bothered about the RCD compliance,. but this is technically illegal (illegal to offer it for sale).

[RLWP]

Liverpool boats went bust

 

Richard

[Tuscan]

thanks for the info, i have found a HIN but it is nothing like the long digits it needs to be, I have checked with the boat builders and they do not have the records as they do not go back that far. apparently i need a annex15a which covers the four years after the annex 3a but again this is information i have only just found out. It looks like we have been sold an "illegal" boat by the brokers. I am going to check my insurance policy to see if we have legal cover as as some have pointed out it should not have been sold to me in the first place without the correct paperwork, surely the brokers can be held accountable?. We are gutted

 

What does the broker say?

[David Mack]

Liverpool boats went bust

 

Richard

But does the legal obligation to maintain records die with the company or are the former directors still liable?

[MtB]

thanks i have tried collingwood they say they haven't got the records it looks like we have been duped on the age of the boat as well. How can people get away with this especially narrowboat brokers? who are you supposed to trust if not them !!!

 

Keep going with this one. Might I suggest you have found a record proving the hull was built slightly over five years ago?

 

Home and dry!

 

MtB

[RLWP]

But does the legal obligation to maintain records die with the company or are the former directors still liable?

 

When does it become not worth the bother to sue?

 

Richard

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Keep going with this one. Might I suggest you have found a record proving the hull was built slightly over five years ago?

 

Home and dry!

 

MtB

 

I thought it was / is 5 years from the date of first use (ie in the water)

[MtB]

 

I thought it was / is 5 years from the date of first use (ie in the water)

 

I thought it was from completion of the DIY fitout. The OP is a really fast worker, probably.

 

Bottom line is, no-one cares. No-one will get prosecuted. Trading Standards have far bigger fish to fry. The hard bit is convincing the OP's buyer of this fact.

 

 

MtB

Actually, swerving ever so slightly off topic, is there any record of ANYONE ever being prosecuted for flogging a NB without a RCD?

 

MtB

[Alan de Enfield]

The Regulations place the responsibility of ensuring the craft meets all the requirements of the RCD upon the person who first places the craft on the EEA market.

THAT WOULD BE WHOEVER THE BROKER WAS SELLING IT FOR - OR MAYBE THE BROKER ?

 

A Home build craft is just that, and is usually built from scratch by the person who is going to use it.

 

There are conditions:

To meet the home build exemption the boat must have been used exclusively, as a recreation craft, by the builder and

Not further placed on the market for at least 5 years.

 

 

First placing on the market is a legal term that has several meanings:

It usually happens when the completed craft is sold by the manufacturer to the person who is going to use it or a dealer for further distribution.

It also happens when the completed craft is used for the first time, as in the case of a Home build or is added to the manufacturer’s charter fleet.

With imported boats, it happens when it clears customs because it is then available for use or distribution.

At this time the completed craft must comply with all the requirements of the RCD.

 

The requirements apply equally to businesses and private individuals.

 

Consequences

The enforcement authorities of any EEA Member State can take action to remove a non-compliant boat from their waters

Most non-compliant boats can be made to comply, PCA, but there is a cost involved. It could be you that foots the bill.

A non-compliant boat is not worth as much as a compliant one.

Your insurance cover may be invalid.

The BSS certificate could be revoked and you will not be allowed to use your boat.

A non-compliant boat never gains compliance just because it has been used for some time.

 

 

 

http://www3.hants.gov.uk/tradingstandards/tradingstandards-boats/recreationalcraft-canalboats.htm

Edited January 28, 2014 by Alan de Enfield

[RLWP]

 

I thought it was from completion of the DIY fitout. The OP is a really fast worker, probably.

 

Bottom line is, no-one cares. No-one will get prosecuted. Trading Standards have far bigger fish to fry. The hard bit is convincing the OP's buyer of this fact.

 

 

MtB

Actually, swerving ever so slightly off topic, is there any record of ANYONE ever being prosecuted for flogging a NB without a RCD?

 

MtB

 

Of course not. Now, let's take it from the other side, someone pops up saying they want to buy a boat with no RCD - what did we advise then? Probably either walk away, or negotiate a fat lump off the price

 

Richard

[jaynienben]

The brokers have not got back to me yet, and It is 5 years from when its is first used as a recreational craft i have checked this out with the canal and rivers trust, who were not interested as long as it is legally licensed and BSS certified which it is. Can i issue this annex15a or does it have to be done by a "proper" surveyor.

 

The boat is far from being completed as illness has stopped the project. C&R trust say the annex3a was only valid for the first year then an annex15a comes into force for the remaining 4 years. which i assume applies to our boat

Edited January 28, 2014 by jaynienben

[MtB]

I once bought a boat with no RCD for full market price, and sold it again for full market price.

 

Thing is, I wanted the boat, and so did the bloke I flogged it to. Neither of us was overly bovvered about EEC rules coz we both loved and wanted the boat. How stupid were we?

 

MtB

P.S. The hull builder in my case was dead, so no Annex 3a available....

[Paul C]

 

I thought it was from completion of the DIY fitout. The OP is a really fast worker, probably.

 

Bottom line is, no-one cares. No-one will get prosecuted. Trading Standards have far bigger fish to fry. The hard bit is convincing the OP's buyer of this fact.

 

 

MtB

Actually, swerving ever so slightly off topic, is there any record of ANYONE ever being prosecuted for flogging a NB without a RCD?

 

MtB

 

Whilst fairly sure nobody has been prosecuted, a fair number of potential sales have stopped in their tracks because of it, and a fair number of probably substandard boats have been denied a market.

It would also incentivise home builders to do things properly, or get professional help in if they can't do it (maybe).

[David Mack]

The brokers have not got back to me yet, and It is 5 years from when its is first used as a recreational craft i have checked this out with the canal and rivers trust, who were not interested as long as it is legally licensed and BSS certified which it is. Can i issue this annex15a or does it have to be done by a "proper" surveyor.

As the builder I think you can issue the paperwork. But the boat would have to comply with the RCD in all respects. And if the question is ever asked you would have to demonstrate that you are competent to certify that. Sounds easier to me to get an appropriately qualified surveyor or similar to take on that responsibility.

[Alan de Enfield]

The brokers have not got back to me yet, and It is 5 years from when its is first used ..........

You said in the first post "We bought a sailaway in 2011 that had been on land and never been launched"

 

"..........when we launched the boat in 2012......"

 

If I may suggest you need to be sure of your facts, (and consistent). If the boat's first launch was not until 2012 then it is only 3 years since the 1st usage.

[jaynienben]

the boat had never been on water until we launched her in 2012, the broker told us that the boat had been brought to the marina on a lorry and was put straight on blocks. we kept it on land to save us the license fees until we wanted to use it on the canal. does this make sense ??