Moored boats running the engine....

[blackrose]

I don't think BW are too keen on either because the turbulence undercuts the bank, even if you're moored on piling. In fact IIRC they prohibit it in their regs.

I'm on pontoons in the middle of an 80ft wide basin so no bank erosion can occur.

 

Like so many of these theoretical matters this bore glazing issue has leaped from a possibility into a proven fact in a single bound.. So fortunate that we have so many 'experts' on the forum.

Indeed, experts like engine manufacturer's technical departments were quoted - have a look at some of the posts above.

Edited December 22, 2007 by blackrose

[John Orentas]

I'm on pontoons in the middle of an 80ft wide basin so no bank erosion can occur.

Indeed, experts like engine manufacturer's technical departments were quoted - have a look at some of the posts above.

 

 

Hi Blakie.

 

I take it your are referring to the quotes from Barrus and perhaps Beta.. This is the point, neither of those companies is a manufacturer, they import engines from the Far East and marinise them, show me a quote from Volvo Penta, BMW, Mercedes of one of the other recognised marine engine makers.

 

Bore glazing has been recognised for many decades as being the result of under running or running at too low a temperature, it is not possible to be more specific than that.. Those people that insist on battery charging for hours on end would be better employed looking to increase their engine running temperatures than constantly moaning about the results of their own foolish actions.

[Keeping Up]

So fortunate that we have so many 'experts' on the forum.

Do you count yourself as one of them John?

[John Orentas]

Do you count yourself as one of them John?

 

 

Pity you did not pick up on my irony Allan:

 

No I am not a professional engine man but I have been around engines for all my life, I reckon to have as much common sense as anyone else and I have put my money where my mouth is, unlike a lot of the tap room engineers we have on the site at present.

 

I at least went to the trouble and expense of putting myself through the RYA assessment procedure to become qualified to run RYA Diesel Engine Courses.

 

You may notice that unlike some others I do not strive to use this forum as an extension of my business interests.

Edited December 22, 2007 by John Orentas

[Guest]

Interestingly, Vetus have now changed their engine users manual, stating that the engine should NOT be run in neutral for more than either five or ten minutes (sorry memory fade again) and I have witnessed this; not towpath talk. One of my live aboard friends was told by his Vetus dealer that prolonged running in neutral would ruin the bearngs on the input shaft of the gearbox as they are splash lubed. Don't shoot the messenger.

[chris w]

Pity you did not pick up on my irony Allan:

 

........................ I reckon to have as much common sense as anyone else

 

 

Was that "irony" too John

[blackrose]

I take it your are referring to the quotes from Barrus and perhaps Beta. This is the point, neither of those companies is a manufacturer, they import engines from the Far East and marinise them, show me a quote from Volvo Penta, BMW, Mercedes of one of the other recognised marine engine makers.

 

I was thinking of Barrus & Isuzu. As marinisers don't you think that both of them can surely talk more expertly on the subject than either of us John?

 

And look at Catweasel's post: I don't know if Vetus are a manufacturer or a mariniser, but that's another organisation saying that engines shouldn't be run in neutal for any length of time.

 

I don't know how you are able to dismiss this advice so easily John?

Edited December 23, 2007 by blackrose

[bottle]

but catweasels post, points more to a gearbox reason than an engine one.

[John Orentas]

I was thinking of Barrus & Isuzu. As marinisers don't you think that both of them can surely talk more expertly on the subject than either of us John?

 

And look at Catweasel's post: I don't know if Vetus are a manufacturer or a mariniser, but that's another organisation saying that engines shouldn't be run in neutal for any length of time.

 

I don't know how you are able to dismiss this advice so easily John?

 

 

Hi Blackie.

 

Several times I have contacted one of the big marinising companies for technical information on behalf of a third party, the answer to your statement is.. No they could not speak more expertly than I can on any of the matters I consulted them upon, in fact I found myself talking to 'goons' on each occasion.

 

No Vetus do not manufacture anything as far as I know they are little more than 'middle men' though I have never communicated with them.

 

I will turn the tables and ask you: Why do you suppose that I am an incompetant in these matters, is it because I don't constantly boast of my accomplishments in the way some contributers do ?.

[Guest]

Hi Blackie.

 

Several times I have contacted one of the big marinising companies for technical information on behalf of a third party, the answer to your statement is.. No they could not speak more expertly than I can on any of the matters I consulted them upon, in fact I found myself talking to 'goons' on each occasion.

 

No Vetus do not manufacture anything as far as I know they are little more than 'middle men' though I have never communicated with them.

I will turn the tables and ask you: Why do you suppose that I am an incompetant in these matters, is it because I don't constantly boast of my accomplishments in the way some contributers do ?.

Correct as far as the canal engines go, but I can't speak for anyhting else they market. The engine used is actually an old design of Mitsubishi (4SL or 4SL2) that has been around for a good few years in both marine and non-marine applications. Vetus stick an 'orrible marine gearbox on, spray it orange and double the price. Well to be fair they do more than that. Communicative they aren't.

Edited December 23, 2007 by Guest

[smileypete]

One of my live aboard friends was told by his Vetus dealer that prolonged running in neutral would ruin the bearngs on the input shaft of the gearbox as they are splash lubed. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

Not shooting the messenger, but I'm a little suprised at this...

 

Surely the input shaft is turning all the time whether in or out of gear?

 

If the gearbox is being run at relatively low speeds then it would be worth making sure it's well topped up.

 

 

Anyway...

 

ISTR reading something that said it's helpful to run the engine for 15mins under some load before switching off.

 

If running the engine in gear when moored next to the bank I'd use a front spring for the bow.

 

This would allow the stern move away from the bank when the rudder is set accordingly (while no boats are passing of course!).

 

cheers,

Pete.

[chris w]

I will turn the tables and ask you: Why do you suppose that I am an incompetant in these matters.......................

 

 

.....is it because I don't constantly boast of my accomplishments in the way some contributers do ?.

 

 

You do know how to lead with your chin don't you.

 

...........and moreover you are constantly boasting that you know more than everyone else on any subject during your 150 year career. You even said above, when talking to an engine manufacturer,"No they could not speak more expertly than I can on any of the matters I consulted them upon"

 

I know that I can pontificate sometimes but, with you, I sit at the feet of the master, and learn.

 

Chris

[Guest]

Bleedin' 'ell it's like being at work on here. I have to put up with a thousand squabbling kids on a daily basis, then I come on here and it continues. Get a f***** life FFS. Take a step back and see how stupid you look. Grow up. Have a nice Christmas

[Guest]

Not shooting the messenger, but I'm a little suprised at this...

 

Surely the input shaft is turning all the time whether in or out of gear?

 

If the gearbox is being run at relatively low speeds then it would be worth making sure it's well topped up.

Anyway...

 

ISTR reading something that said it's helpful to run the engine for 15mins under some load before switching off.

 

If running the engine in gear when moored next to the bank I'd use a front spring for the bow.

 

This would allow the stern move away from the bank when the rudder is set accordingly (while no boats are passing of course!).

 

cheers,

Pete.

Hi Pete

I was a little surprised too. The agent concerned claimed that the splash lube was insufficient when running in neutral for more than a few minutes. I always keep the gearbox oil at its highest level as you suggest; OK so far, but if I do use the engine to battery charge when moored, I pop it into gear occasionally for a few mins., but as John O and one or two others have sensibly suggested, it is best to stay near the gear lever! I got a fertilizer sack wrapped around the prop recently doing this. Mavbe it is bad luck, but I often pick rubbish up around the prop when running whilst moored.

[magnetman]

I believe, perhaps wrongly, that a lot of money will need to be spent repairing collapsed canal banks which have been destroyed by people running engines designed to push 20 ton boats along (or run large diggers), in forward or reverse gear tied to a mooring pin or ring. I think this is out of order. It is in the license conditions that you shouldn't do this but not in bold print so they can't do anything about it.

I would like to see them send a bill for repairs to people who are observed to regularly run engines in gear while tied up because I don't quite see why they should be allowed to dismantle the infrastructure in this way at the expense of all users.

 

rant mode OFF

[Keeping Up]

The agent concerned claimed that the splash lube was insufficient when running in neutral for more than a few minutes.

If the agent is speaking the truth then I would regard this as a serious design flaw in their gearboxes.

[Supermalc]

The fact remains.........diesel engine with regular oil changes do in fact run better when run at a high throttle setting under load, for part of the time.

 

How this is achieved is totally irrevelant.

[howardang]

The fact remains.........diesel engine with regular oil changes do in fact run better when run at a high throttle setting under load, for part of the time.

 

How this is achieved is totally irrevelant.

I wouldn't dare disagree with an experienced engineer, but just one comment - it is relevant if the engine is being run while the boat is moored to the bank which can cause a lot of damage and is against BW's regs.

 

Best regards

 

Howard Anguish

[blackrose]

but catweasels post, points more to a gearbox reason than an engine one.

That would be a good enough reason for me if I had a Vetus gearbox.

 

I will turn the tables and ask you: Why do you suppose that I am an incompetant in these matters, is it because I don't constantly boast of my accomplishments in the way some contributers do ?.

 

And I will turn the tables again and ask you to show me where I stated that you were an incompetant?

 

I merely said that neither you nor I were experts, which is true.

 

I'm still sitting on the fence on this issue - I really don't know the answer. Personally it's not going to affect me too much as I'm on shore power at my mooring and can use a genset to charge when away from the mooring. However, I think it leaves those (at least those with certain makes of engine & gearbox), who use their engines/alternators as their primary charging source, with a bit of a dilemma and at the mercy of a lot of conflicting advice.

Edited December 24, 2007 by blackrose

[saltysplash]

Interestingly, Vetus have now changed their engine users manual, stating that the engine should NOT be run in neutral for more than either five or ten minutes (sorry memory fade again) and I have witnessed this; not towpath talk. One of my live aboard friends was told by his Vetus dealer that prolonged running in neutral would ruin the bearngs on the input shaft of the gearbox as they are splash lubed. Don't shoot the messenger.

 

 

On the old Tub I had a Gardner 4L3 which was fitted in 1945 following the war.

 

In the very brown'd owners manual it was underlined that care should be taken not to run the engine in neutral for longer than 30 mins or damage to the gearbox would occur...nothing about glazed turkey.....i mean bores

 

 

mmmm glazed turkey

[blackrose]

On the old Tub I had a Gardner 4L3 which was fitted in 1945 following the war.

 

In the very brown'd owners manual it was underlined that care should be taken not to run the engine in neutral for longer than 30 mins or damage to the gearbox would occur...nothing about glazed turkey.....i mean bores

mmmm glazed turkey

 

I will check with PRM to see if they offer simiar advice... I can't remember reading anything in the owner's manual. Does anyone know if this applies to hydraulic boxes? (Mines the 150)

Edited December 24, 2007 by blackrose

[Timleech]

I will check with PRM to see if they offer simiar advice... I can't remember reading anything in the owner's manual. Does anyone know if this applies to hydraulic boxes? (Mines the 150)

 

The Gardner 2UC and 3UC gearboxes have an oil pump driven from the main shaft, this doesn't operate when in neutral.

The hydraulic PRM boxes ought to be fine, they are lubricated with the same oil which works the hydraulics (ie running all the time, otherwise the hydraulics wouldn't work ). The smaller Hurth-like PRM mechanical boxes, I can't comment upon.

BTW, relating to the 'running in reverse' issue, the PRM hydraulic boxes run equally well either way.

 

Incidentally Gardners were well aware of bore glazing issues, and issued an edict many years ago about the perils of using high turbo-spec oils in their (at that time) naturally aspirated engines.

 

Tim

[John Orentas]

You do know how to lead with your chin don't you.

 

...........and moreover you are constantly boasting that you know more than everyone else on any subject during your 150 year career. You even said above, when talking to an engine manufacturer,"No they could not speak more expertly than I can on any of the matters I consulted them upon"

 

I know that I can pontificate sometimes but, with you, I sit at the feet of the master, and learn.

 

Chris

 

 

 

 

 

Thats it! I have just about had enough of this animal.

 

I'm off until things become a bit more civilised.

[saltysplash]

Thats it! I have just about had enough of this animal.

 

I'm off until things become a bit more civilised.

 

 

Please dont john

 

 

Ive never met a fellow lancastrian......yep even rochdale as far as im concerned is in lancashire.....who bows down to pressure

 

I enjoy your posts and your humour

[smileypete]

Thats it! I have just about had enough of this animal.

 

I'm off until things become a bit more civilised.

 

My solution is the magic words:

 

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: chris w.

 

cheers and Happy Christmas all,

Pete.