Moored boats running the engine....

[Ellum]

Hello all, firstly I'm a newbie to these boards so please bear with me Have had a good nosey round, spent over an hour following the Cragdale thread, so pleased the boat was found, well done all concerned.

 

So, to my query - we're currently in London and were moored up behind a boat (old-style, open with rear cabin) the other night which was running its engine whilst in gear - the clunk of our rudder pushing against the stern brought me out for a look. I thought someone had just made a mistake as the pull on the ropes can't be good either but then saw another boat (semi-trad) further down the towpath doing the same thing.

 

Can anyone enlighten me?

 

 

 

E.

[Chris Lingwood]

They are doing it because they think that if they don't they will glaze their bores. (The oil and additive pack turn into a varnish on the inside of the cylinders) Load on the engine is suppose to stop this. Whether or not this actually happens any more or ever did seams to be a matter of opinion.

 

You can search for glaze and bore now and fine a plethora of posts arguing about it now

[Moley]

Hello all, firstly I'm a newbie to these boards so please bear with me

Hi Ellum, and welcome to the forum.

 

I think I've seen this covered a couple of times, have found one thread but I'm sure there's a longer one somewhere, will keep looking, just got to find the right keyword.

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=122

[Yoda]

Hello all, firstly I'm a newbie to these boards so please bear with me Have had a good nosey round, spent over an hour following the Cragdale thread, so pleased the boat was found, well done all concerned.

 

So, to my query - we're currently in London and were moored up behind a boat (old-style, open with rear cabin) the other night which was running its engine whilst in gear - the clunk of our rudder pushing against the stern brought me out for a look. I thought someone had just made a mistake as the pull on the ropes can't be good either but then saw another boat (semi-trad) further down the towpath doing the same thing.

 

Can anyone enlighten me?

E.

 

Hello and welcome.

 

From an engineering point of view, there is no reason to run the engine in gear. It will not stop glazing of the bores. This problem is more to do with wrong oil or not heating the oil to running temperature or to poor oil scraper ring control.

 

Perhaps some designs of engine require to be run under heavier load conditions for their oil system to work properly but that is doughtfull of the small engines fitted to narrowboats.

 

I consider that an engine left running in gear so that the prop rotates and is left unattended to be very bad practice. Others will probably disagree but safety first.

[Ellum]

Many thanks for that, I will have a look now. Had never heard of that before!

 

Edited to say that I've had a look and I get the jist (not at all mechnically-minded) of the idea but...

So I take it it wouldn't work just to run the engine harder but in neutral? I guess nothing beats giving the boat a good run regularly.

 

E.

Edited November 17, 2006 by Ellum

[Bones]

I dread to raise it up again but.........

 

there is also a school of thought that running the engine in gear charges the batteries quicker...........

[DHutch]

Yeah, the basic thought is that, loading the enigne more heavly (ie, with prop) causes it to reach a higher temperature.

- Howeverhis is gerernally unnessesary, espically with modern enignes. And technicaly against BWB bylaws.

 

That said, you mention its an old working boat, certain older boats cant not operate the enigne without the prop spinning. As is also the case with emilyanne.

- However, we usally use a small petrol genny (honda EX1000) if we do need to generate power.

 

 

 

I dread to raise it up again but there is also a school of thought that running the engine in gear charges the batteries quicker...

This is simply not in the least bit true.

- HOWEVER, it is true that you can often get a much better charge rate, for very limited extra fuel useage, by increasing the revs slightly to somewhat above tickover. If you plan to use the enigne to charge at all frequently, it is well worth fitting an ampmeter so that the output of the alternator can be monitered. This will also tell you when its time to turn it all off!

 

 

Daniel

Edited November 17, 2006 by dhutch

[anhar]

I dread to raise it up again but.........

 

there is also a school of thought that running the engine in gear charges the batteries quicker...........

Hello Bones

 

I don't know if you are taking the french here but if you're serious, I don't see how your comment makes any sense. Charging the batteries arises from current produced by the alternator which is driven by a belt directly from the engine. Consequently how can it make any difference to charging whether the engine is in gear or not?

 

regards

Steve

Edited November 17, 2006 by anhar

[DHutch]

I don't know if you are taking the french here but if you're serious, I don't see how your comment makes any sense. Charging the batteries arises from current produced by the alternator which is driven by a belt directly from the engine. Consequently how can it make any difference to charging whether the engine is in gear or not?

The only thing i can think, is that someone found by moving the throtal forward, engauging the prop, and increasing the rev, and found the got improved charging. And put that down to prop being engauged, rather then the increase in revs. HENCE, the production of another farsicle urban mith!

 

 

Daniel

[Bones]

I knew I shouldn't have posted it. I shall do a search later for the thread about it where it has been dicussed at length.

 

And whether it is right or not, I have heard many boaters suggesting that engine should be run in gear when charging the batteries as it works better that way, and this may explain why some people run their engines in gear so much.

 

[Eastern]

I dread to raise it up again but.........

 

there is also a school of thought that running the engine in gear charges the batteries quicker...........

IMHO the only thing that will happen quicker is the lowering of the fuel level in the tank!

[Bones]

IMHO the only thing that will happen quicker is the lowering of the fuel level in the tank!

 

 

I have found the thread I was looking for Engine Speed but I was wrong about that particular thread saying the engine should be in gear for it and can only conclude that I have got that bit from around the cut and confused the two.

 

I have asked around, and some people think that being in gear is what counts, not the engine revs - that combined with protecting the engine.

 

In reply to Steve, I was just being the messenger and suggesting why one might run the engine in gear - it never made sense to me either, I would be more inclined to agree with Daniel and the higher revs being the issue not the prop whizzing around, but I didn't think I would say that as there is no reason why I should or shouldn't know.

[GRPCruiserman]

If you equip the boat correctly, with sufficient batteries for each stop, and alternative water heating methods, then there is NO reason to run the engine at all except when moving!!

 

I've always had outboards which charge very little and in fact the last one I had offered no charge in to the batteries, but we could still last a week on two 85Ah batteries,weatching TV every night etc etc.

 

If you move every day, you need few batteries and little alternators. If you moor up regularly for long periods and only travel short distances you should have enough (larger number of) batteries and a larger alternator for when you move.

 

It's as simple as that.

Edited November 17, 2006 by GRPCruiserman

[DHutch]

If you equip the boat correctly, with sufficient batteries for each stop, and alternative water heating methods, then there is NO reason to run the engine at all except when moving!!

Correct to a point.

- However, there does become a point where by the number of batterys needed becomes still. If you moor in the same place for 6months of the year, thats one might battery bank!!

- And hence it becomes cheaper, more viable, and more evormentaly frendly, to actally have a smaller bank, and sort at way of chearing the batterys when not crusing.

 

 

Daniel

[Supermalc]

I'll try to put my experience on a web page, but for now.

 

I reconditioned engines for a living in the early 70s. One one occasion, someone brought a car back under garantee, saying 'it used oil'. I was told to use the car for a couple of days, and to 'not drive it gently' i.e. to give it a bit of a thrashing, without breaking, or damaging it. I kept a check on the oil level, and it didn't use much. The car was returned with no further complaints. This was a petrol engine of course, a run of the mill Ford Cortina Mk 1.

 

About ten years ago, I was spending time at a friends garage. He had to fit a reconditoned engine to a small van, a rare occasion these days. After fitting and running for a short while, the engine smoked to extreme. The engine builder was called, who 'did something' then went for a short drive. The van hardly smoked on returning, and subsequently used little, or no oil. My friend is a competant mechanic, who has been at the family garage all his life, and was in his middle 30s. Also a successful race driver and engine builder.

 

Another friend, an agricultural engineer, who maintained and repaired tractors (now sadly deceased) told me when we discussed what happened, said he had fitted new cylinder liners and pistons to a tractor. The Farmer had run it in gently, and this too smoked and used oil.

 

This was because of polished (glazed) bores, more common today because of the use of chrome piston rings (and or bores. I may stand to be corrected).

 

Years ago, a new car sold locally had to be returned to the factory for service under the terms of the garantee. Taken by a young man, he heard a car racing round the test track. Peeping over the fence he was shocked to see it was the car he had taken for the 'service/decoke'.

 

We have all heard tales of 'my car always goes better after a good thrashing once in a while', or 'a good thrashing every now and then always does more good than harm'.

 

So based on this knowledge, what conclusion can we make?

 

New engines today are generally 'run in' on the factory floor, so should be driven normally without the need to treat them gently. But if an engine is driven at full throttle for long periods, it will of course suffer as a consequence.

 

If an engine, particularly a diesel is run at slow speed for an extended period, carbon deposts will form in the valve seats, and exhaust ports. Oil usage may increase, with more oil being burnt, due to polished (glazed) bores. This happens because oil must be retained on the cylinder walls. The piston rings are designed to scrape off most of this oil, returning it to the sump. But if the walls and rings are too polished, oil will be left on to be burnt by combustion. Also excessive crankcase pressure can result, blowing oil past the piston ring/cylinder wall seal, or around the breather system.

 

Common sense must tell us. Once an engine is run in, all normal use is acceptable, even if this requires some extended periods at little over tickover. However as this means the engine may run colder than ideal operating temperature, giving rise to oil sludging, and possible bore glazing, running flat out under load for an occasional 10 minutes, should reduce, or remove these symptoms.

 

So if you regularly run your engine on a NB to charge the batteries. Run it in gear, moving or not at 3/4s throttle or so for about 1/4 of an hour once a month. Also change the oil at more frequent intervals than the manual recommends. An oil change will cost you £15 to £20. A new engine several thousand.

 

I'll try and write a more eloquent page later, which should result after a few re-writes, and inclusion of others opinions.

[Noah]

................Run it in gear, moving or not at 3/4s throttle or so for about 1/4 of an hour once a month...........

In gear while moored at ¾ throttle and I’d demolish a few yards of towpath or rip out the stakes! I’m all for giving the boat a damn good thrashing while under way on a river or where it’ll do no damage. My once smoky engine has improved loads after this treatment. If running the engine while stationary it’s usually best to run just above tickover for battery charging. This will also heat the calorifier quicker if that’s what is required.

 

Noah

[Guest]

In gear while moored at ¾ throttle and I’d demolish a few yards of towpath or rip out the stakes! I’m all for giving the boat a damn good thrashing while under way on a river or where it’ll do no damage. My once smoky engine has improved loads after this treatment. If running the engine while stationary it’s usually best to run just above tickover for battery charging. This will also heat the calorifier quicker if that’s what is required.

Noah

My findings with our boat also. I have noticed recently that less people seem to run in gear when charging on moorings. At one time it was regular.

[Noah]

I once passed a moored boat with its prop spinning fast and its rudder pointing outwards. I didn’t notice until the wash slammed me into a moored boat on the offside!

 

Npoah

 

 

Npoah

Who?!?

It's been a long day and my dislecksia is returning

[bramley]

I have to say recently i have seen a bit of how do you say, Bitching going on this forum between members,

 

Your all proberbly right though lol.. but just a shame it gets a bit bad

[mykaskin]

I understand that is against BW regulations to run the engine in gear while moored. Can anyone confirm this.

[Guest]

I have to say recently i have seen a bit of how do you say, Bitching going on this forum between members,

 

Your all proberbly right though lol.. but just a shame it gets a bit bad

Not quite sure where you are coming from, do you refer to this particular thread, or is it a general observation? I see no particular problem on this thread.

[bramley]

on other threads as well, electrical ones lol

[Guest]

on other threads as well, electrical ones lol

I understand now

[denkirk]

I understand now

For what it's worth here's my experience of small diesel engines. My last sea-going boat had a Volvo Penta MD2002 which was a 20hp twin cylinder diesel with alternator etc. etc., the oil changing requirement in the owners manual was to change the oil every 50 hours and change the oil and filter every 100 hours, but, the manual stated that the use of expensive synthetic oils was not needed and could form glazing of the cylinders, so it said that basic mineral oil was completely ok. The engine was slow revving very simple in style and construction, and lasted me years without a problem to the engine though the alternator gave me some problems once or twice the engine itself was rock solid. I kind of think that the newer engines found on boats now may be to high spec' for the requirements of a narrowboat and the older more basic engines are a better bet. As for running in gear it defies logic why anyone would run under load when stationary, think about the cutlass seal wearing away for nothing, the gearbox being used for nothing and the stern gland being slowly loosened for nothing, not withstanding the fact that if you have skin tank cooling the boat being stationary isn't cooling a thing. So that's my two pennyworth, I now use an outboard giving me 15 amps of charge and find I'm fine with it, though I must say that I'm not a liveaboard so my requirements aren't what you may need, but I can't comment on what I don't do, can I? The engineer I worked with at Fleetwood when I was on distant water trawlers there said to me that: 'The most important thing to do to any diesel engine is change the oil. Change the oil regularly and you'll get years of trouble free use.'

 

Denis.

[Supermalc]

In gear while moored at ¾ throttle and I’d demolish a few yards of towpath or rip out the stakes!

 

Noah

 

I should have known

 

Edit :-So if you regularly run your engine on a NB to charge the batteries. Run it in gear, moving or not at 3/4s throttle or so for about 1/4 of an hour once a month. If tied, make sure you are NOT going to do any damage, either to the riverbed, the bank or other boats. Do not run the engine so fast as to move all but a little of silt. Or if you have a powerful engine, risk pulling out the mooring pins, or breaking the lines. Also if it is cooled by a fresh water tank (skin tank) or pipes, watch the water temperature does not rise above normal. Also change the oil at more frequent intervals than the manual recommends. An oil change will cost you £15 to £20. A new engine several thousand.

 

 

There When you have been to the toilet, wash your hands i.e. turn on the tap with the plug out until the water runs warm, or hot. Turn off the tap. Insert the plug (the small black round rubber bung, usually on the end of a chain) Turn on the tap. When the sink is half full, or the depth of water enough to cover your hands, turn off the tap and put your hands in the water. When wet pick up the soap and rub it until some covers your hands. Put the soap back on the sink. Rub hands together, then rub them together in the water until the soap has come off. Pull out the plug. Rinse the sink by running the cold tap for 23.5 seconds. Dry your hands on a towel, or a paper towel, or an air dryer, or in the sunlight if it is a hot day.

 

'The most important thing to do to any diesel engine is change the oil. Change the oil regularly and you'll get years of trouble free use.'

 

Denis.

 

How I agree with you Denis.

Edited November 17, 2006 by Supermalc