Led Lighting

[Grace and Favour]

Thanks for that. But at £30 a pop that's £840 to replace the lot. Think I'll stick to what I've got.

Why not simply replace the few that you use most?

[Magic Potion]

I really should have thought of that myself.

[raymondh]

Hi,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T5-LED-Tube-5050-SMD-LED-replacement-for-T5-Fluorescent-tube-for-Cabinet-/400509439377?pt=UK_Light_Bulbs&var=&hash=item5d40390d91

Worth a try at £13 inc delivery

I have two off ebay from China that have been in use in my motorhome for 18 months or so - in fact "on" now camped up in Chester awaiting the opening of Northwich Marina

Lamps very well engineered ally extrusion and polycarb lense both 300mm and easy to fit working well either off grid 12 voltish or as now on hook up at up to 14.6v when charging

Regards Ray

PS all my 12volt lamps in M/H and boat are from ebay - China/Hong Kong with only two failures out of 30 + lamps, however all the UK sourced fitted when the boat was new failed within 18 months

Both boat and M/H have Victron multi inverter chargers and Trojan batts R.

Edited November 6, 2013 by raymondh

[Magic Potion]

Thanks Ray. Could be just the thing.

[Mat B]

Hi,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T5-LED-Tube-5050-SMD-LED-replacement-for-T5-Fluorescent-tube-for-Cabinet-/400509439377?pt=UK_Light_Bulbs&var=&hash=item5d40390d91

Worth a try at £13 inc delivery...........

But is it 12V??

 

The voltage is not stated as far as I can see.

 

The blurb says "please note in some T5 light fittings the strater(sic) many be needed to be removed to able this LED to work" which implies that it is a 230V lamp??

 

m@

[raymondh]

Hi,

I am sure all flo tubes have a simmilar working voltage?

see below from Bedaz ad for the tube they sell

"Please note that the high voltage inverter board in existing fluorescent fittings must be removed or disconnected - instructions supplied and advice available".

Note the word "inverter"

Ray

PS I would enquire from the seller before buying not assume - there are lots on ebay, I emailed the seller of the tubes I purchased

for confirmation and a wiring diagram, I paid £20 for two delivered from Hong Kong but ebay feedback only goes back 12 months so cant advise where I purchased from

 

Regards Ray

Edited November 6, 2013 by raymondh

[Adrian Jones]

Hi,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/T5-LED-Tube-5050-SMD-LED-replacement-for-T5-Fluorescent-tube-for-Cabinet-/400509439377?pt=UK_Light_Bulbs&var=&hash=item5d40390d91

Worth a try at £13 inc delivery

I have two off ebay from China that have been in use in my motorhome for 18 months or so - in fact "on" now camped up in Chester awaiting the opening of Northwich Marina

Lamps very well engineered ally extrusion and polycarb lense both 300mm and easy to fit working well either off grid 12 voltish or as now on hook up at up to 14.6v when charging

Regards Ray

PS all my 12volt lamps in M/H and boat are from ebay - China/Hong Kong with only two failures out of 30 + lamps, however all the UK sourced fitted when the boat was new failed within 18 months

Both boat and M/H have Victron multi inverter chargers and Trojan batts R.

I can't easily see the operating voltage or the lumen output of the LED tube lamp in the link. Without a lumen output being stated it's the same as buying a bottle of beer and not knowing how much it contains. A quarter filled bottle wouldn't be very good value compared to buying a full bottle at double the price.

Unfortunately its impossible to compare LED lamp products if you don't know the specification of each product. Exactly like comparing apples with pears. Many eBay sellers simply don't provide a specification for their LED products, other than stating input power in Watts. The power input is meaningless for LED lamps. A quality LED lamp will have a much higher lumen output per watt compared to a low quality chip. How can a buyer know if one product is better than another? The buyer can't if the lumen value isn't given and therefore takes a risk and a punt in the dark, excuse the pun.

[Richard T]

I've got fluorescent frame lights throughout. The 30cm 8 watt bulbs, 2 in each light. Are there any led equivalents out there?

I have simply taken out the tubes and all fittings then using a short length of aluminium angle put in 2 or 3 G4 lamp holders depending on location and fitted circular LEDS. Cost about £12 per light. I have bought the LEDs used from Ultraled at Macclesfield. Many supplied have been manufactured by Cree. They also supply G4 capsule equivalents for use in halogen spots.The lumen output is stated and most of the units are rated 10 to 30v which allows for voltage fluctuations. So far we have had no problems with any of the units.

[George94]

If people want to spend £15.00 per bulb, rather than £1.00 on Ebay, then of course they are welcome.

 

Despite the solemn assertions of serious looking people who describe themselves as LED lighting engineers (when they mean technicians, or fitters) cheap Chinese LEDs do actually work and keep on working. And the price differential is vastly greater than the claimed benefits of buying the over-priced stuff.

 

LED technology has been around for years. LEDs are cheap to make. The prices charged by some people are an outrage.

[nicknorman]

If people want to spend £15.00 per bulb, rather than £1.00 on Ebay, then of course they are welcome.

 

Despite the solemn assertions of serious looking people who describe themselves as LED lighting engineers (when they mean technicians, or fitters) cheap Chinese LEDs do actually work and keep on working. And the price differential is vastly greater than the claimed benefits of buying the over-priced stuff.

 

LED technology has been around for years. LEDs are cheap to make. The prices charged by some people are an outrage.

 

However cheap chinese imports are not only illegal to sell in this country if they have not passed CE mark testing, they are also often badly designed. You are right that an LED is an LED, however making a batch of LEDs will have varying degrees of success. After manufacture, they are graded according to their light output. The bright ones of course fetch a much higher price than the dim ones. Guess what sort you get with a £1 LED?

 

Then there is the regulation circuit. I think most now come with a switch mode power supply that allows operation at constant brightness between say 9v and 30v. So far so good, but the high speed switching circuits will generate radio interference unless well designed and supressed. So there have been a number of complaints on this forum about cheap LEDs interfering with DAB radio in particular, but also FM radio and TVs. Also, there is a danger of overheating and fire in a badly designed circuit. It almost certainly won't happen, but if it does it could wipe out your boat.

 

So for me, spending £10 (I haven't seen ones for £15) on a good quality bulb, CE marked so that I know it won't interfere nor go on fire, with a nice light quality, is worth it. But each to their own of course!

[George94]

 

However cheap chinese imports are not only illegal to sell in this country if they have not passed CE mark testing, they are also often badly designed. You are right that an LED is an LED, however making a batch of LEDs will have varying degrees of success. After manufacture, they are graded according to their light output. The bright ones of course fetch a much higher price than the dim ones. Guess what sort you get with a £1 LED?

 

Then there is the regulation circuit. I think most now come with a switch mode power supply that allows operation at constant brightness between say 9v and 30v. So far so good, but the high speed switching circuits will generate radio interference unless well designed and supressed. So there have been a number of complaints on this forum about cheap LEDs interfering with DAB radio in particular, but also FM radio and TVs. Also, there is a danger of overheating and fire in a badly designed circuit. It almost certainly won't happen, but if it does it could wipe out your boat.

 

So for me, spending £10 (I haven't seen ones for £15) on a good quality bulb, CE marked so that I know it won't interfere nor go on fire, with a nice light quality, is worth it. But each to their own of course!

 

You don't need all that stuff for a 12V bulb. As long as it can handle up to 15V, all is well.

 

And if you don't have these wholly unnecessary circuits, you won't have interference.

[Québec]

I seem to recall on a another recent thread on this subject someone explaining that one reason for the price difference is that the technological and production platforms for LED are developing so quickly. Some of the cheaper bulbs are being produced on 'old' platforms, so nothing inherently wrong with them, except there's no R&D costs.

 

Then, of course, there are those which are cheap simply because they're crap.

[nicknorman]

You don't need all that stuff for a 12V bulb. As long as it can handle up to 15V, all is well.

 

And if you don't have these wholly unnecessary circuits, you won't have interference.

Yes, the ones at £1 don't have the fancy circuitry so no interference. But they do have to have resistors to control the current. So you get quite a bit of wasted power, which makes the device hot, and is less efficient as a result. You will get quite a brightness change between 12v and 15v. At 15v its operating well above its design power so the resistors and LEDs will get really hot, and life at that voltage is probably limited.

 

So in summary, you can get a device that lights your boat for £1, but for £10 you get a better device. I can buy a bottle of wine for £3.99 but I normally spend nearer £10. Both are red, wet and get me tiddly, but the £10 one is so much nicer!

[Naughty Cal]

Hi

 

My boat had all halogen lights when I bought it as the previous owner simply had no idea about boats and power. I changed them all to CHEAP leds from ebay. They have been giving perfect service now for 2 years and in this time I have changed none of one kind I purchased and about four of another kind. I paid less than £2 per lamp and considerably less on some of them. I have during that time run via gennie charging, towpath by engine charging and mostly as now via shoreline with the batts sitting at around 13.8 volts. Pay a billion pounds per item if you wish but realy truly take it from a liveaboard you simply do not have to pay over the odds.

 

Tim

Our cheapo LED G4's lasted 3 years with no problems and we have kept them as spares. We only changed them as we wanted brighter bulbs for the four main lights in the cabin. Think they came in at under £2 per bulb.

 

Our expensive LED bulb in the cockpit failed after just 18 months. It was subject to the same treatment as the other bulbs which have been fine. We replaced it with a cheaper version which was all we could get at such short notice whilst out and about and that has so far been fine in the 18 months it has been installed.

 

We recently changed our shower room tube light for an LED equivalent as well. Doesnt save much power, although there is a small power saving, but it does give out much more light that is of a colour and quality that we vastly prefer.

[jonathanA]

we did well to get to post 35 before the inevitable...

 

to use nicks analogy some of us are happy with £3.99 wine some are happy with £10.99 wine, me I prefer to pay £3.99 for £10.99 wine... sometimes though i only get 3.99 wine for my £3.99....

 

The argument about resistors vs proper regulators is fatuous. so my 'resistor' led light might use 3W (lets call that .0.25A ) and a 'proper' one might only use 1.5 W (and I'm being generous) so thats 0.125A as the comparsion is usually with a 20W halogen drawing nearly 2A its not really anywhere like significant. - 87% reduction versus 94% in other words both give about a 90% saving...

 

,

[nicknorman]

 

we did well to get to post 35 before the inevitable...

 

to use nicks analogy some of us are happy with £3.99 wine some are happy with £10.99 wine, me I prefer to pay £3.99 for £10.99 wine... sometimes though i only get 3.99 wine for my £3.99....

 

The argument about resistors vs proper regulators is fatuous. so my 'resistor' led light might use 3W (lets call that .0.25A ) and a 'proper' one might only use 1.5 W (and I'm being generous) so thats 0.125A as the comparsion is usually with a 20W halogen drawing nearly 2A its not really anywhere like significant. - 87% reduction versus 94% in other words both give about a 90% saving...

Inevitable what?

Anyway, if you can get £10.99 wine for £3.99 that is great, I am but jealous! Agreed the difference in current consumption is small and it doesn't translate into much current saving. But a bit of saving none the less. More significant is the heat generated, especially at the higher voltage condition (15v) and whether that is an issue will depend on the type of light fitting. For me as an electronics engineer, SMPS is so much more elegant that a lump of carbon (resistor). If simplicity is your goal, there are always candles and oil lamps!

 

As I mentioned elsewhere I ended up with £10 LED bulbs as 10W replacements, mainly because the cheaper ones (medium priced) had a nasty harsh light quality. Having just spent £100k on a boat, another £200 for some nice bulbs to give pleasant light is inconsequential. If you are on a tight budget and "low cost" is your primary driver, then by all means use £1 devices with resistors. Just don't presume that low cost must be the primary consideration of everyone.

[jonathanA]

I think we are in violent agreement...

 

you pays your money and takes your choice...

[Adrian Jones]

If people want to spend £15.00 per bulb, rather than £1.00 on Ebay, then of course they are welcome.

 

Despite the solemn assertions of serious looking people who describe themselves as LED lighting engineers (when they mean technicians, or fitters) cheap Chinese LEDs do actually work and keep on working. And the price differential is vastly greater than the claimed benefits of buying the over-priced stuff.

 

LED technology has been around for years. LEDs are cheap to make. The prices charged by some people are an outrage.

If people want to spend £15.00 per bulb, rather than £1.00 on Ebay, then of course they are welcome.

 

Despite the solemn assertions of serious looking people who describe themselves as LED lighting engineers (when they mean technicians, or fitters) cheap Chinese LEDs do actually work and keep on working. And the price differential is vastly greater than the claimed benefits of buying the over-priced stuff.

 

LED technology has been around for years. LEDs are cheap to make. The prices charged by some people are an outrage.

LED technology has been around for years, a statement of fact, indeed they have been. LEDs are produced and graded after each chip has been tested against the design specification. Following testing LEDs are segregated into quality bins, not surprisingly the process is known as binning. The difference between the best quality LEDs and the lowest quality ones can be very significant. The price charged is of course dependent on the quality, the better quality binned ones are far more expensive, indeed often ten fold more expensive than the lowest quality chips. The low quality LEDs often known as orphan LEDs, are sold off to lamp assemblers where they can be found included in many low cost lamps. Whilst they work many have latent defects that often result in a shorter working life, it's a lottery what you buy and there is often no warranty provided.

 

It's absolutely fine if boat owners wish to purchase low cost resister controlled LED lamps after understanding the differences between those and the more sophisticated products which are available. The fact is many boat owners have purchased resistor controlled lamps whilst being completely unaware of the issues involved and advantages of one type and the other.

 

Incidentally, it is rather rude to denigrate my technical qualifications when you have no idea who I am. In fact I am a professionally qualified electrical engineer with 40 years experience and a member of the Institution of Engineering and Technology (Institute of Electrical Engineers). Maybe you would like to share your qualifications with the forum members.

 

Regards

 

Adrian Jones

[Adrian Jones]

I tried to advise without raising safety as an issue. However, I see that some boat-owners seem to be disregarding potential issues that can arise using resistor controlled lamps, particularly where the supply voltage on boats can vary significantly. This little video may help convince doubters:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdiAUovJ17w

[mrsmelly]

I think we are in violent agreement...

 

you pays your money and takes your choice...

 

Very true you can pay 2 quid to see what you are doing or ten quid to see what you are doing

As for wine I have done a few wine courses in my past life and one guy was spot on when he cut through the snobbery by asking us all on the course how can you tell a good bottle of wine? He of course got the usual load of replies then told us the definitive answer. " A good bottle of wine is a one that the purchaser likes "

I have drunk very very expensive wine that has been Gopping and I have had some at a fiver a bottle that have been exellent.

 

Tim

[carl125]

I've just ordered some g4 LED bulbs to replace the 20W halogen downlighters fitted in my boat. - The LED ones are 'equivalent' to 25W incandescent bulbs, so I hope will give a similar light, but my main concern was the amps drawn. They are also going into the reading lamps above the beds, and into the outside deck light.

Edited November 26, 2013 by carl125

[Grace and Favour]

I've just ordered some g4 LED bulbs to replace the 20W halogen downlighters fitted in my boat. - The LED ones are 'equivalent' to 25W incandescent bulbs, so I hope will give a similar light, but my main concern was the amps drawn. They are also going into the reading lamps above the beds, and into the outside deck light.

Welcome to the forum carl125,

 

Did you order these direct from China - or via a biz like Ebay (The $'s in the link confused me initially)

Edited November 26, 2013 by Grace & Favour

[nicknorman]

Those are resistive type as mentioned in post #44 video (or mr asbestos fingers as I call it!) designed to run from a domestic mains to 12v AC regulated supply.

 

They will be fine if you only ever use them with engine /shore charging off - ie battery voltage 12.something. See the video for what might happen if you use them with the engine running and well charged batteries! It's not that these are a bad product in themselves, it's just that they are being used in an unintended application (supply voltage significantly above 12v).

 

On a technical note the video makes an interesting point about the relationship between current and voltage. In an incandescent bulb, if the voltage is raised the current increases and the filament gets hotter. However it's a feature of an incandescent filament that its resistance increases the hotter the filament gets. So there is a modest degree of intrinsic current regulation - the current will increase less than if the filament had a fixed resistance. This is why 12v incandescent bulbs can generally tolerate say 14.8v.

 

By contrast, not only do the resistors built into resistive LED lamps have a fixed value, but also the LEDs themselves tend to drop a pretty much fixed voltage regardless of current. So in a typical design with many LEDs in series, the voltage dropped by the resistor is a fairly small portion of the ~12v supply. Thus if you now increase the voltage by say 20%, the voltage across the resistor increases by a lot more than 20%. Bearing in mind the power dissipated by a resistor is a function of V squared, you get a much larger than expected increase in heat generated by the resistor which, as the video shows, can rapidly destroy the bulb and /or possibly cause damaging overheating to its surroundings.

[George94]

Incidentally, it is rather rude to denigrate my technical qualifications when you have no idea who I am. In fact I am a professionally qualified electrical engineer with 40 years experience and a member of the Institution of Engineering and Technology (Institute of Electrical Engineers). Maybe you would like to share your qualifications with the forum members.

 

Regards

 

Adrian Jones

 

Whoops, I apologise. I have no qualifications in electrics, electronics, or anything similar.

 

BTW, I am currently sitting in my saloon, warmed by a coal fire, and listening to the music coming from my Lister generator. Until a few minutes ago, my chargers were pushing out 14.4V, and guess what? To my intense disappointment, none of my cheap LEDs have burst into flames.

 

And I don't expect them to, because I have had them for years, and they just keep on doing what I bought them for, which is to provide light.

 

If you look on Youtube you will find videos of people being mauled by tigers, eaten by sharks, flattened by steamrollers and goodness knows what else. But I don't have nightmares about these things because statistics tell me that in the UK the chance of being eaten by a crocodile or mauled by a tiger are vanishingly small. About the same really as being burnt to a cinder by a naughty LED.

 

I am much more likely to die by falling off the boat. That's what I would worry about, if I were the worrying kind. But thank the Lord, I'm not, sir.

[matty40s]

George, you really need to start attacking them with a 4" screw.

Then the sharks will bounce you out of the boat and you will drown as there are tigers on the towpath.