More electrical help needed

[Pete & Helen]

Hi,

 

I have 2 problems which I hope I can get a bit of help for.

 

First is with my alternator, I think its broke, Its the original alternator on a Ventus Diesel thats dome 4200 hrs. Done a few tests and there is no rise in battery voltage (12.4 volts) or any output current (using clamp meter). The strange thing is is that the warning light is on when the ignition is turned on and when the engine is running it drops to just a very low glimmer. I would have thought that this would have stayed on full if there was no charge coming out of the alternator?

the only other voltage check I can do on the alternator is on the D+ terminal which feeds back to the warning light and this is 9.7v with the engine running. The circuit for the warning light is from the ign switch via a diode then through the warning light which has a parallel resistor, which I assume is there in case the bulb blows, then through another diode to the D+ terminal.

Any Ideas??

 

Second problem

Do you have one of these panels? Its a Stirling Electrical Distribution board about 8 yrs old

 

 

The switch at the top I believe should switch the 240v sockets to either shore power, inverter or a generator bit it doesn't seem to do anything. The only way power gets to the sockets is when the inverter (Mastervolt) is switched on. As I haven't had the boat long I don't know what wiring has been done and if there is a good reason why the switch doesn't work. Also none of the lights by the switch work either. Thankfully the RCCB does work ok.

 

Thanks

[nicknorman]

Assuming the drive belt is not ridiculously loose, then the alternator is goosed I'm afraid. Blown diodes or regulator. Did you do anything to make it thus, such as turning off the battery isolator with the engine running?

 

As to the panel, not familiar with that one. Do the green lights illuminate when the appropriate power source is connected? (Inverter, shore power, genny)

[Pete & Helen]

Assuming the drive belt is not ridiculously loose, then the alternator is goosed I'm afraid. Blown diodes or regulator. Did you do anything to make it thus, such as turning off the battery isolator with the engine running?

 

As to the panel, not familiar with that one. Do the green lights illuminate when the appropriate power source is connected? (Inverter, shore power, genny)

 

No not done anything to goose the alternator. I have had the problem since I took over the boat but thought it was just the battery initially. I do understand the importance of not running without a load. None of the lights come on whatever power is connected or being used. I am wondering if the whole lot was disconnected when the inverter was fitted

[Timleech]

I imagine StIrling Boats was the builder or outfitter of your boat?

Nothing to do with StErling who make/import inverters and other electrical stuff.

 

Tim

[Albion]

Usually when a diode packs up you get the glimmer when running from the warning light so it looks like a recon of the alternator. You have confirmed the glimmer of the warning light by showing that the back feed to the warning light is less than battery voltage hence the glimmer because when everything is OK the voltage would be identical either side of the warning light and hence no glimmer at all because there is no current flow.

Roger

 

Edited to add that that switch at the top of your mains panel looks like a perfectly standard mains changeover switch available from lots of sources so, if by any chance it is the faulty component then you can repair the panel quite easily.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Albion

[steelaway]

The panels are made by GS Components Castleford

 

http://www.gscontrols.com/

 

Alex

[dor]

Definitely sounds like regulator and/or diodes on the alternator. I had a similar situation, where alternator would charge with the external regulator connected but not without it. light gave glimmer as you describe.

 

If it is a Vetus, take it to an independent auto electrician (there is a very good one in Eaton, near Tarpoley Cheshire). While you are at it, get them to fit a 14.4V regulator and you will get a much better charging regime without the need for an external controller.

[Pete & Helen]

The panels are made by GS Components Castleford

 

http://www.gscontrols.com/

 

Alex

Good spot Alex. e-mailed them to get some info on it :-)

[jonathanA]

Mains panel

 

I'd say if none of the lights work then there is no input intot he panel as they are usually wired direct on the input i.e before the switch. so its unlikely to be a faulty switch.

 

silly question have you tried tracing the wiring at the back of the panel - presumably there is a shore power inlet and generator inlet somewhere that should be wired direct to the panel.

 

Does the inverter actually go through this panel ? eg moving the switch off position two disconnects the sockets ?

[Pete & Helen]

Mains panel

 

I'd say if none of the lights work then there is no input intot he panel as they are usually wired direct on the input i.e before the switch. so its unlikely to be a faulty switch.

 

silly question have you tried tracing the wiring at the back of the panel - presumably there is a shore power inlet and generator inlet somewhere that should be wired direct to the panel.

 

Does the inverter actually go through this panel ? eg moving the switch off position two disconnects the sockets ?

 

 

I've not taken the panel off yet to investigate what's going on behind but I am expecting to find nothing connected to it (with the exception of the RCCB)

I suspect, as I said before that the panel was disconnected when the inverter was fitted, the question is why? I know the previous owner didn't do it so will have to try and trace the owner before that and see if there was any reason. In the meantime I'm waiting on a reply from the panel manufacturers hopefully with a wiring diagram.

[jonathanA]

you won't really need a wiring diagram they are incredibly striaghtforward and everything labelled up. If the RCCB is still part of the system and nothing else is you may need a wiring diagram to sort out the bodge as someone must have gone to a lot of trouble to make it like that - rather stupidly if i may so !

 

I'd say it is worth investigating as it may not be that complex and perfectly safe if the inverter is off and shoreline disconnected.

 

At the very least you could put some piccies up on here for the assembled brains to cogitate on.

 

obviously if you are not confident or unsure of anything then you should consult an expert.

[Pete & Helen]

you won't really need a wiring diagram they are incredibly striaghtforward and everything labelled up. If the RCCB is still part of the system and nothing else is you may need a wiring diagram to sort out the bodge as someone must have gone to a lot of trouble to make it like that - rather stupidly if i may so !

 

I'd say it is worth investigating as it may not be that complex and perfectly safe if the inverter is off and shoreline disconnected.

 

At the very least you could put some piccies up on here for the assembled brains to cogitate on.

 

obviously if you are not confident or unsure of anything then you should consult an expert.

 

I posted more to see if anyone else had the same panel and just get a quick answer to my question. I don't have a problem with wiring but thought it would be easier than tracing wires in the unit its self. A job for the weekend with everything switched off. Not had a reply from the panel manufacturers yet.

[Alastair]

Before spending money, try goosing your alternator. Could have lost residual field.

 

http://www.dieselduck.net/machine/03%20electricity/flashing_generator.htm

[Sir Nibble]

Before spending money, try goosing your alternator. Could have lost residual field.

 

http://www.dieselduck.net/machine/03%20electricity/flashing_generator.htm

STOP!

This link refers to a dynamo where this procedure is fairly common. An alternator will not require this procedure provided the warning light circuit is intact and does not require a residual field to begin charging. The symptoms suggest a diode failure, in this case probably one or more of the field diodes, attempting this procedure will do no good at best and at worst may end up with you holding a red hot piece of wire. The alternator requires repair or replacement. Show me a photo of the alternator and I can advise on whether a DIY repair is feasible.

[Pete & Helen]

Before spending money, try goosing your alternator. Could have lost residual field.

 

http://www.dieselduck.net/machine/03%20electricity/flashing_generator.htm

 

Will look into this, thanks

[Tony Brooks]

Before spending money, try goosing your alternator. Could have lost residual field.

 

http://www.dieselduck.net/machine/03%20electricity/flashing_generator.htm

 

I think that one is rather out of date. It almost certainly refers to dynamos, not alternators. Although a very few alternators are self exiting and I have heard that they occasionally need exiting. The Vetus is almost certainly a 9 diode alternator that uses warning lamp current to excite the rotor. The only time they will not self excite, maybe with a bit of a rev, is when someone has fitted an under powered warning lamp bulb or an LED warning lamp. They will also not self excite it the warnnig lamp wire (w/l to D+ (not F) is shorted to earth, but then the buld would be on at full brightness all the time.

 

This is 99.9% certain that its a faulty alternator assembly and I would suspect the field diodes.

 

 

Edited to add:

 

Two of us saying the same thing at the same time.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Tony Brooks

[Pete & Helen]

STOP!

This link refers to a dynamo where this procedure is fairly common. An alternator will not require this procedure provided the warning light circuit is intact and does not require a residual field to begin charging. The symptoms suggest a diode failure, in this case probably one or more of the field diodes, attempting this procedure will do no good at best and at worst may end up with you holding a red hot piece of wire. The alternator requires repair or replacement. Show me a photo of the alternator and I can advise on whether a DIY repair is feasible.

 

Looked into it and agree. Will be taking the alternator off at the weekend. It fits so close to the engine that I can only just see a couple of wires. Have been in contact with an alternator specialist who can check it off engine. With the cost being so high for alternators I think this will be a wise move. I have an electronics background so if the diodes are reachable I will be able to test them myself. Spares may be the difficulty with DIY but will see once its off.

 

[Sir Nibble]

No problem, that's a Nippon Denso machine. Rectifier assembly is a purely nut and bolt job to change. Remove the main output terminal nut and insulator. The tin cover on the back is held on by 5mm (8mm spanner) nuts, remove them and the cover. The rectifier is connected to both input and output by screws, no soldering. You will recognise the ac inputs from the stator winding and the field output is a thin metal tongue protruding from the rectifier assy and screwed to the brush box terminal. Test diodes from each input in turn to that field output and I bet at least one has failed.

If you can establish that it is indeed a rectifier failure then it shouldn't be a big deal to source a replacement online, I can help with that.

[Pete & Helen]

No problem, that's a Nippon Denso machine. Rectifier assembly is a purely nut and bolt job to change. Remove the main output terminal nut and insulator. The tin cover on the back is held on by 5mm (8mm spanner) nuts, remove them and the cover. The rectifier is connected to both input and output by screws, no soldering. You will recognise the ac inputs from the stator winding and the field output is a thin metal tongue protruding from the rectifier assy and screwed to the brush box terminal. Test diodes from each input in turn to that field output and I bet at least one has failed.

If you can establish that it is indeed a rectifier failure then it shouldn't be a big deal to source a replacement online, I can help with that.

 

Thanks, much appreciated. as the engine (and assume alternator) has done 4200 hrs I think looking at the brushes for wear might be on the cards as well

[Sir Nibble]

 

Thanks, much appreciated. as the engine (and assume alternator) has done 4200 hrs I think looking at the brushes for wear might be on the cards as well

Quite so, the slip ring on these things wear horribly too.

[Alastair]

 

I think that one is rather out of date. It almost certainly refers to dynamos, not alternators. Although a very few alternators are self exiting and I have heard that they occasionally need exiting. The Vetus is almost certainly a 9 diode alternator that uses warning lamp current to excite the rotor. The only time they will not self excite, maybe

Edited to add:

I should have checked the link, sorry.

 

I've had two boats where the alternators lost field now and then, usually after not being run for a while.

[Krusty]

 

Looked into it and agree. Will be taking the alternator off at the weekend. It fits so close to the engine that I can only just see a couple of wires. Have been in contact with an alternator specialist who can check it off engine. With the cost being so high for alternators I think this will be a wise move. I have an electronics background so if the diodes are reachable I will be able to test them myself. Spares may be the difficulty with DIY but will see once its off.

 

 

Hi P+H.

Hope you get your problems sorted soon.

Sorry to hi-jack your post but your engine looks to be the same as mine 4.17 ( ? ).

Do you know the size of your alternator?

Using a clamp meter around the alt' to battery lead, I can't get a reading above, about 30 amps no matter what the soc is or how hard I rev the engine.

I was wondering what sort of reading you expect to get.

Regards K.

[Ricco1]

Just a thought: If money is an issue and repairing/ replacing the alternator is prohibitive: have you considered leaving it be and fitting another alternator? A 70/80a alternator off a scrap car is 20 quid or so. Depending on the layout in your engine bay it may be possible to weld it in a suitable place and run it off the propshaft. Not a big job I'm told. Obviously you'd lose the capability of charging out of gear but from what you say you might not be doing this. Obviously it wouldn't be a great selling point if you decided to change your boat but if you're planning to keep it a long while maybe that's not an issue. You'd then take the alternator element of your engine out of the Vetus= expensive equation!

 

As I say, just a thought.

[Pete & Helen]

 

 

Hi P+H.

Hope you get your problems sorted soon.

Sorry to hi-jack your post but your engine looks to be the same as mine 4.17 ( ? ).

Do you know the size of your alternator?

Using a clamp meter around the alt' to battery lead, I can't get a reading above, about 30 amps no matter what the soc is or how hard I rev the engine.

I was wondering what sort of reading you expect to get.

Regards K.

 

 

Hi Krusty,

 

I have the M4.15 engine fitted, no Idea what the alternator should be putting out but can let you know what it is when I get it fixed. The standard alternator for both engines is 50Amp but my hand book has been changed to read 95Amp by a previous owner. I won't know what it is till I get it off the engine this weekend

 

Pete

[Pete & Helen]

Update on the Panel issue.

Took the panel off today and sure enough all that's connected is the RCCB

It looks like the panel was wired to take different inputs that could be switched but these have been re-routed to the inverter.

My inverter is a Mastervolt Mass Combi12/2000-100 and according to the blurb it takes shore power in on one feed which is used to power the battery charger. it also feeds directly back out to high load items that you dont want to be running when on battery only (ie washing machine).

The second mains output is to the normal 240v sockets on the boat. I'm not sure on any internal switching in this second output and if it always runs as an inverted DC output or from the shore power till that fails then runs on the batteries.

I did a check by switching off the shore power but all the appliances including immersion and washing machine still worked so it would seem the High Load output goes nowhere and everything is via the inverter..

Will have to investigate a bit more as it seems pointless needing the inverter running when on shore power. (note when on shore power if I switch the inverter off I loose all power to all things 240v.