Lithium Batteries?

[Doodlebug]

I just found this:

 

In theory 20 would do almost the same job as a 440ah battery bank

 

(£295 for 196ah in lithium and around £320 for 440ah lead acid with a usable 220ah)

 

Bearing in mind you can use them for more of their rated Ah than lead acid batteries where you should never use more than 50% of its charge, are these not pretty good value?

 

What are the disadvantages to them?

 

Is it a stupid idea, or would it be a good idea to buy a whole load and link them together in parallel?

 

 

[Robbo]

Lithium batteries age, and still suffer if deeply discharged. It's only the energy density that is beneficial making it more lightweight (which really isn't an issue for us canal boaters!).

 

In addition you'll need a charger that supports lithium.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Robbo

[RLWP]

Now, I don't know a lot about this, I believe they need a lot more control when charging than a lead acid battery

 

Richard

[peterboat]

There is a chap with an electric boat with these on board saw him a few years ago he is a techy so might be on here and no more about them?

 

Peter

[Chalky]

Lithium batteries if properly cared for don't age at anything like the rate of lead acid ones. They do have some VERY significant issues. Unlike lead acid batteries they need a properly designed and implemented battery management system to control them. This system has to manage the individual cell temperature and charge and actively or passively move charge between them. You can't equalise the charge in the same way you would for a lead acid battery. The battery may also need to be actively cooled to stop thermal issues. If a lithium battery gets out of control they will release their energy in a very spectacular way - there's enough heat to burn through a steel hull. The battery management systems are considered to be safety critical and are usually ASIL D rated according to ISO 26262.

 

If you don't understand the technology stick well clear.

 

I spent 2 years working on electric vehicle traction systems as part of the LCVTP project and was the leader of one of the work streams

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sU_me910FY

[Ex- Member]

We're hoping battery technology will have moved on somewhat before we need new batteries which It should do what with more demand and more innovation. Cost will always be a factor though and at the moment I don't think the technology of Lithium and others is at a stage where paying more is in any way beneficial to boaters given our different requirements and charging regimes.

 

You would think with all the the technological advances over the past century and know how, that storing and replenishing energy would be as simple as storing anything else, unfortunately not though.

[rjasmith]

Don't wish to be a Luddite and I'm sure there will be a better technology than wet lead-acid for boats one day but remember what happened recently to the Lithium-ion batteries in the new Boeing Dreamliner!!

 

Presumably they've sorted that now but I think I'm going to wait a little longer for Li-ion "big battery" technology to mature before going for them in my boat. Undoubtedly they're fine for mobile phones and laptops.

 

Li-ion batteries usually have charge control electronics inside them to ensure they are *killed off" once the electronics detect a dangerous end of life failure mode occurring. This is to prevent them catching fire!

 

Presumably this didn't work on the Dreamliner!

 

Richard

 

Far too slow - read Chalky's post for the correct version!

Edited October 22, 2013 by rjasmith

[Robbo]

Here's a link that may find interesting - http://www.bruceschwab.com/uploads/li-vs-la.pdf

 

I think that hydrogen fuel cell that was linked to in another topic was the way forward. At the moment the cost for the fuel per kW was way to high.

[pistnbroke]

If they cannot get it right on a Boeing 787 why do you think you can do it on a narrowboat..??

[dor]

The one thing that might move this on is electric car technology. At the moment electric cars are to all intents and purposes impractical for real use due to the limited capacity of their batteries. If governments and industries really want us to consider electric cars as a viable option the technology needs to be improved and provided at a sensible cost. It may be that fuel cells will render the whole idea obsolete before it really gets sorted, but that is another technology that needs to develop a real practical setup at a sensible cost.

 

At the moment, 440AHrs of half-decent battery capacity costs about £280. That's going to take some beating from either alternative battery types or hydrogen fuel cells.

[lexicon]

Here's a link that may find interesting - http://www.bruceschwab.com/uploads/li-vs-la.pdf

 

I think that hydrogen fuel cell that was linked to in another topic was the way forward. At the moment the cost for the fuel per kW was way to high.

Interesting link . But they say typical daily usage over 300ah! Who seriously uses that many ah In a day?

[Top cat]

I use small lithium polymer batteries for my model aircraft. They are fussy about charging, discharging, storage, temperature, and are liable to burst into flames if things go even slightly wrong.

I am happy if I get 200 charge cycles out of one before its capacity drops so much to make it useless. I tolerate this because they are lightweight, not something I need in a boat battery. Also my batteries are cheap at about £10 each so 200 flights seems ok but I doubt that 200 cycles on a £1000 battery would seem like good value.

So for boat use I consider them a non starter until the car industry gets them sorted and robust. Even then I will be wary given the appalling standard of electrical installation I've seen on many boats and thats with mature technology. I dread to think of the number of fatalities that will be caused when your average boatyard cowboy starts installing lithuim batteries.

 

TC

[Arthur Brown]

A major issue is that most hi-tec battery systems have a wide variation of discharge voltages, meaning that the lead acid volts range of 13.4 to 12.0 wouild become 17v to 10v therefore all the lamps would need to be replaced and all the automotive electronics may need to be 12 -24 compatible.

 

Oh! you'd be the only boat with a rebuilt alternator with the new charging regime built in meaning that there were no spares anywhere and no shoreline chargers either.

[Doodlebug]

Cheers everyone, that answered my question perfectly.

 

I just thought that at the price I found them they might be an alternative option for when our current batteries die. But it seems it isn't practical.

 

We don't have an alternator anyway, although we would need a different solar regulator etc. I noticed on my sterling charger it does have a lithium function but I assume this is a lithium leisure battery?

[Chalky]

The typical cell voltage for a lithium battery is about 3.4v however some chemistries are about 2.9. For an electric car they tend to be in strings to give 280 to 400V and then parallelled up. For the price a decent capacity traction battery you could buy a sail away from a low end builder.

 

The form factor is variable. I've seen can cells - 6" long 1.5" in diameter - about 6 aH and also pouch cells that are 10mm thick and the size of an A4 sheet with 40ah capacity - 4 of these and a BMS and you could replace an 80ah lead acid battery. This is a fast moving area - not much has been done with batteries in the last 100 years however there's a huge amount of work being done on them, especially by car companies who are recruiting battery chemists as fast as they can.

 

Where it does get interesting is in about 15 years time. The traction batteries will be tired however they'll have loads of life left in them for other uses e.g. boat electrical supplies. That's the time to buy them.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Chalky

[Taslim]

Snip.

 

Where it does get interesting is in about 15 years time. The traction batteries will be tired however they'll have loads of life left in them for other uses e.g. boat electrical supplies. That's the time to buy them.

A man after my own heart.

 

That's how I get cheap wet lead acids for the domestic bank on the truck.

 

I give the yard £10 & my dead batterys in exchange for batts that are not fit as starters but last well at lower discharge rates.